You can make a bow. It will be enchanted. But, you don't get ranged spellstrike.You don't get melee OR ranged spellstrike. You get Phantom weapon spellstrike.
It's "he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack" changed to "he can deliver the spell through her phantom weapon". The type of weapon, melee, has been changed to phantom weapon much the same way "light or one-handed melee weapon" in spell combat changed to phantom weapon.
Now if we had some kind of framework for substituting class features with another classes features, it's would be easier to figure out what exactly you get.
The ability tells you exactly what to substitute. There is a single exception and that is that the only weapon they can use for spellstrike is your phantom weapon. Everything else about spellstrike is exactly the same as from the magus class. Any other changes you read into the ability is houseruling. This is one of those cases that isn't ambiguous.
Edit:
the archetype can be read as having ranged spellstrike plus melee spellstrike,Many rules can be read a few different ways. This really isn't one of them. The text simply doesn't support ranged spellstrike.
The big flag is the "this functions" language. That tells you how the rules are supposed to work.
I don't see why the substitution would work that way. It replaces normal weapons for it's single weapon, and those weapon attacks with it's attacks.
"functions as" spellstrike when you're only weapon is ranged would seem to mean, imo, 'ranged' spellstrike. "a phantom blade can deliver spells through her phantom weapon" would be incorrect if you're allowed to make a bow but could NEVER gain ranged spellstrike.
It seems we're unlikely to agree here. For me everything about the weapon type and attack gets replaced with phantom weapon. This might be one we need an FAQ on. #1, it'd be nice to make sure the authors intent, you can make ANY weapon, is correct. and #2 if #1 is right, how do ranged weapons work.
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Spellstrike (Su): At 2nd level, a phantom blade can deliver spells through her phantom weapon. This functions like the magus’s spellstrike class ability (Ultimate Magic 10) except the only weapon the spiritualist can use to deliver spells is her phantom weapon.
Don't stop reading after the first sentence. It's the second one that has the crunch.
3. The weapon can be any weapon with which you are proficient. Are you an elf? Take an elven curved blade! Want a bow? Sure!The author seem to think that you can use a bow without problems.
If you can use a bow to deliver your spellstrike, it implies that you can deliver your spellstrike when attacking at a range, not when hitting someone on the head with the bow used as an improvised weapon.
Yes, the author says you can make your phantom weapon into a bow. They do not say or imply that you can use spellstrike on a ranged attack.
"A phantom blade can deliver spells through her phantom weapon" has already changed how the spellstrike ability work. It allow him to deliver the spells through the normal attack of his Phantom weapon, regardless of the weapon type.
Again, read the whole of the ability.
It seems like you are projecting your negative reaction to the class onto the rules text to get an overpowered interpretation. Changing your magic weapon into a bow doesn't change how your spellstrike class ability works. It is still melee-only. Take a step back and look at how the different parts work in concert. It comes together when you don't hyperfocus on single sentences.
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"functions as" spellstrike when you're only weapon is ranged would seem to mean, imo, 'ranged' spellstrike. "a phantom blade can deliver spells through her phantom weapon" would be incorrect if you're allowed to make a bow but could NEVER gain ranged spellstrike.
Well, there is your issue. Your only weapon does not need to be a bow. You can have a bow that can eventually turn into a longsword or a battleaxe or a greatclub. It's not a great choice to start as a bow, as you won't get much use out of spellstrike until later levels, but it doesn't stop you. Most people will choose a melee weapon and be able to turn it into a bow later.
Yes, there is a melee assumption. That is much better than a melee restriction, in my opinion.
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It seems we're unlikely to agree here. For me everything about the weapon type and attack gets replaced with phantom weapon. This might be one we need an FAQ on. #1, it'd be nice to make sure the authors intent, you can make ANY weapon, is correct. and #2 if #1 is right, how do ranged weapons work.
It would be nicer to know the developer intent when they printed the archetype.
After it leave the author/contributor hands and it enter the developers hands, what matter are the text words, not the author intent.It still has plenty of loopholes, but I would read it way more restrictively of how the author presented it.
The problem is that the archetype test in still open to the more permissive reading.
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Spellstrike (Su): At 2nd level, a phantom blade can deliver spells through her phantom weapon. This functions like the magus’s spellstrike class ability (Ultimate Magic 10) except the only weapon the spiritualist can use to deliver spells is her phantom weapon.
Per RAW, in this case, the author is wrong.
At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack.
Because the only change to spellstrike for the phantom blade version is it couldn't be any old melee weapon, it must be the phantom weapon, but still requires a melee attack per its reference to the default magus spellstrike.
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It seems like you are projecting your negative reaction to the class onto the rules text to get an overpowered interpretation.
To the archetype, not to the class. I have nothing against the spiritualist.
Yes, my reaction is extremely negative, as this archetype, read the author way, is extremely open ended and create a better magus than the magus class.
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It seems like you are projecting your negative reaction to the class onto the rules text to get an overpowered interpretation. Changing your magic weapon into a bow doesn't change how your spellstrike class ability works. It is still melee-only. Take a step back and look at how the different parts work in concert. It comes together when you don't hyperfocus on single sentences.
I looked at all the sentences and came to the conclusion I did anyway. If changing your weapon can change the spell combat ability, why can't it change the spellstrike ability? What is the difference between:
Replacing "a light or one-handed melee weapon" with "phantom weapon"and
Replacing "any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack" with "phantom weapon"?
"This functions like the magus’s spellstrike class ability (Ultimate Magic 10) except the only weapon the spiritualist can use to deliver spells is her phantom weapon." If it's a bow it's "This functions like the magus’s spellstrike class ability (Ultimate Magic 10) except the only weapon the spiritualist can use to deliver spells is a bow." To do that, you'd have to replace the melee part with an attack with the phantom weapon.
There is no rule how much is 'replaced' with a 'functions as' ability, so it's up to the person figure it out. IMO, it functions as spellstrike for your phantom weapon no matter it's type, ranged of melee.
Maybe Luis Loza will pop in and let us know what was intended. I know I didn't think the weapon choice was as flexible as it was so
It seems like you are projecting your negative reaction to the class onto the rules text to get an overpowered interpretation.
To the archetype, not to the class. I have nothing against the spiritualist.
Yes, my reaction is extremely negative, as this archetype, read the author way, is extremely open ended and create a better magus than the magus class.
Not really. The ability to use different weapons is nice but your spell list is a lot less useful to a 'magus' type attacker. For me, it was no brainer to pick a magus over a phantom blade. If this works, it's be a toss up.
PS: Spell list for phantom blade doesn't have magus staples like arcane mark, shocking grasp, ect.
And from what I read I suppose that even if the Spiritualist is a WIS based character Spell combat still use INT Bonus modifier when casting defensively yes ? :)
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Do you think any reading/intepretation of the phantom blade spell combat ability which results in the ability actually granting nothing to a phantom blade character (without having to take broad study) is a correct reading of the RAW?It doesn't really matter what I think is right/reasonable. The point is will anyone I might run into think that. If the writing is bad/vague enough that you can read an ability doing nothing, that is the problem and not the person that reads it that way.
The problem here is you keep responding from a general perspective of the rules as a whole, and not specifically to what I am addressing - the phantom blade archetypes spell combat ability.
Let me ask again:
Do you think any reading/intepretation of the phantom blade spell combat ability which results in the ability actually granting nothing to a phantom blade character (without having to take broad study) is a correct reading of the RAW?
Do you think anyone with even just a basic understanding of English because it is their second language, or they are still in grade school, or whatever, would honestly have any difficulty understanding how this one specific ability is supposed to function? That they would conclude it leads to a result of "no effect"? (Assuming they had a solid understanding of how the default spell combat works).
But let me add
It doesn't really matter what I think is right/reasonable. The point is will anyone I might run into think that.
Is a strawman to the argument. Technically I could point to any part of the rules and say "That doesn't work like everyone thinks it does. I know it seems like what is means is X, but the developers, maybe, just maybe, could have meant Y." Based on that reasoning no portion of the rules is 100% guaranteed to work like we think it does. We all think that everytime you gain a level you get another skill point, but its theoretically possible the developers didn't intend for that to happen, and its poor editing/a misprint/whatever. But any meaningful discussion has to assume at least a basic level of consistent meaning from the written words.
And thus pick from among those other readings that have "some effect"?We might be able to do so. I can't prove it's the correct one though. The rules leave dots unconnected and want us to make it fit.
Sure, but the point of my example still stands. A "no effect" reading is obviously wrong. All "some effect" readings, even ones we don't spot or recognize, could potentially be the right one. The point wasn't we can pick out right one necessarily, the point is we can discard obviously incorrect ones.
So theoretically the phantom blade spell combat works with spiritualist spells instead of magus spells reading may not the right reading, but the phantom blade spell combat works with only magus spells to "no effect" is obviously wrong.
And the above is correct if you accept a basic level of consistent meaning in the language - the PDT and other content authors aren't perfect, but they certainly aren't inept either. The rules are sufficiently clear in far more cases then they are vague leaving us in doubt. We just see the vague cases so much in this forum because those are the interesting cases to talk about. I mean if someone posed the question "Does Improved Trip really give a +2 to the CMB roll?" it would get a one post response of "Yes", and no one would argue that it wasn't. Sometimes we get these weird cases where someone gets something wrong, even though the language is sufficiently clear for 99% of the population - What's the DC to jump a 10' pit? Can I ranked flank (despite the language in the gang up FAQ)? Or phantom blade spell combat doesn't actually do anything per RAW does it?
And from what I read I suppose that even if the Spiritualist is a WIS based character Spell combat still use INT Bonus modifier when casting defensively yes ? :)
Technically yes. However, see this reference here.
Technically yes. However, see this reference here.
Oh nice, they don't want to make it a general rule so they suggest homerule if it's not too overpowered... :)
So let's see if I have understood everything :
The phantom blade can use spellstrike like a magus with Shadow Blade spell, but since it work like spellstrike those spells need to be "touch" spells delevered through melee attacks yes ?
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It seems like you are projecting your negative reaction to the class onto the rules text to get an overpowered interpretation. Changing your magic weapon into a bow doesn't change how your spellstrike class ability works. It is still melee-only. Take a step back and look at how the different parts work in concert. It comes together when you don't hyperfocus on single sentences.
I looked at all the sentences and came to the conclusion I did anyway. If changing your weapon can change the spell combat ability, why can't it change the spellstrike ability? What is the difference between:
Replacing "a light or one-handed melee weapon" with "phantom weapon"
and
Replacing "any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack" with "phantom weapon"?
The difference between a melee weapon and a melee attack are subtle, but important. You replace "melee weapon" with "phantom weapon", and you can spell combat with a bow. You replace "any weapon" with "phantom weapon" and you still have to make a melee attack for spellstrike. In both abilities, you only ever replace the weapon you are using, but they end up with different effects because the wording of the abilities is different.
You can always dip Juggler Bard to always have a free hand.
There is no rule how much is 'replaced' with a 'functions as' ability, so it's up to the person figure it out. IMO, it functions as spellstrike for your phantom weapon no matter it's type, ranged of melee.
So should we also expand upon what text is replaced and eliminate "This attack uses the weapon’s critical range..." :)
No, when it says instead of using any weapon, use the phantom weapon, the only text to be replaced is the type of weapon. Or do you want to suggest that your text of "any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack" is replaced by "phantom weapon" somehow also removes this text from spellstrike
...whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch”...
The spell is still a touch spell, and still needs to follow the rules of touch spells unless a specific exception is made (in this case the specific exception is it can be delivered through a melee weapon attack). Note that the default spellstrike ability uses the words "melee attack" throughout the entire paragraph. Your asking for a lot of text to be removed without any indication of the phantom blade version of the ability asking for that to be changed.
Compare that to the myrmidarch ranged spellstrike, which actually combines the abilities of spell combat and spellstrike into a ranged format, and only works with ranged touch spells (and not melee touch spells). The myrmidarch has no separate spell combat ability.
The Eldritch Archer does have a separate spell combat and ranged spellstrike, but the ranged spellstrike still requires a ranged touch spell to function.
Trying to shoehorn the phantom blade to encapsulate both spellstrike and ranged spellstrike into the same mold simply doesn't fit. (That may very well have been the authors intent, but that is not what came out at the end). It would need to say this works as spellstrike or ranged spellstrike, depending on the type of chosen phantom blade weapon.
Technically yes. However, see this reference here.Oh nice, they don't want to make it a general rule so they suggest homerule if it's not too overpowered... :)
So let's see if I have understood everything :
The phantom blade can use spellstrike like a magus with Shadow Blade spell, but since it work like spellstrike those spells need to be "touch" spells delevered through melee attacks yes ?
Correct.
...and you can spell combat with a bow.
I'll disagree with you on this point. It hasn't removed the restriction in spell combat of "You must have a hand free." It would need to say it works like spell combat from a magus, or spell combat from a eldritch archer to allow the flexibility of both one handed melee weapons or bows. Or have text that removes the "one hand free" requirement to work with two-handed melee phantom weapons, etc.
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...and you can spell combat with a bow.I'll disagree with you on this point. It hasn't removed the restriction in spell combat of "You must have a hand free." It would need to say it works like spell combat from a magus, or spell combat from a eldritch archer to allow the flexibility of both one handed melee weapons or bows. Or have text that removes the "one hand free" requirement to work with two-handed melee phantom weapons, etc.
You can wield your bow with one hand, you only need two hand to fire with it ;)
With the Empty Quiver style feat you can use your bow as a heavy mace or without as an improvised weapon and deliver spell with it ;)
It seems like you are projecting your negative reaction to the class onto the rules text to get an overpowered interpretation.
To the archetype, not to the class. I have nothing against the spiritualist.
Yes, my reaction is extremely negative, as this archetype, read the author way, is extremely open ended and create a better magus than the magus class.
Not really. The ability to use different weapons is nice but your spell list is a lot less useful to a 'magus' type attacker. For me, it was no brainer to pick a magus over a phantom blade. If this works, it's be a toss up.
PS: Spell list for phantom blade doesn't have magus staples like arcane mark, shocking grasp, ect.
I built up a Phantom Blade a while back, just to see how it would work for me and my personal play style. I tend to stick to self-buffs and control spells, seldom using Shocking Grasp. The biggest difference for me was the loss of Bladed Dash and the acquisition of better buffs and some healing.
Because the only change to spellstrike for the phantom blade version is it couldn't be any old melee weapon, it must be the phantom weapon, but still requires a melee attack per its reference to the default magus spellstrike.
This
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It seems like you are projecting your negative reaction to the class onto the rules text to get an overpowered interpretation.
To the archetype, not to the class. I have nothing against the spiritualist.
Yes, my reaction is extremely negative, as this archetype, read the author way, is extremely open ended and create a better magus than the magus class.
Not really. The ability to use different weapons is nice but your spell list is a lot less useful to a 'magus' type attacker. For me, it was no brainer to pick a magus over a phantom blade. If this works, it's be a toss up.
PS: Spell list for phantom blade doesn't have magus staples like arcane mark, shocking grasp, ect.
Better personal buffs, better debuffing spells, better save or sucks. Sure, you don't have shocking grasp, but you are a spontaneous spellcasters, so you have magic items that allow you to add spells from outside your spell list to your spell list.
Medium armor from level 1.
4 skill point, so you don't suffer even if you are a wis based class.
Ghost touch for free from level 1 (normally you need to select an arcana to get hit [together with brilliant energy]);
From level 5 onward, the phantom weapon "Ectoplasmic Pool" is larger than a bladebound arcane pool. They don't enhance the plus of the weapon, but give:
- the weapon attacks resolve as touch attack for 1 round (normally you need to select an arcana to do that);
- you automatically get holy/unholy a level 11 (normally you need to select an arcana to do that);
- brilliant energy at level 15, again for free.
- "Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat and treats her unarmed strike damage as a monk of her level – 2." when not manifesting the weapon.
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bbangerter:
Spell Combat (Ex): A phantom blade can cast spells and wield her phantom weapon at the same time. This functions as the magus’s spell combat class ability (Ultimate Magic 10).
Spell Combat (Ex): ....
To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand.
If we accept that the author interpretation is true, and "A phantom blade can cast spells and wield her phantom weapon at the same time." supersede "To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand.", even if the Phantom Blade spell combat refer the magus spell combat, we should accept that it work the same way for spellstrike.
Spellstrike (Su): At 2nd level, a phantom blade can deliver spells through her phantom weapon. This functions like the magus’s spellstrike class ability (Ultimate Magic 10) except the only weapon the spiritualist can use to deliver spells is her phantom weapon.
Spellstrike (Su): At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack. Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell.
If we follow the author interpretation, that text become:
Spellstrike (Su): At 2nd level, whenever a Phantom Blade casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the Phantom Blade spell list, he can deliver the spell through his phantom weapon. Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a Phantom Blade can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell.The Phantom Blade is limited to touch spells, and don't get a free attack with ranged weapons, but he deliver them at the range used by the weapon. Essentially the weapon become his "touching" limb.
Note: I don't agree with the author. I am arguing what his interpretation of the rules do, not what I think a Phantom blade will do if read RAW.
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There is no rule how much is 'replaced' with a 'functions as' ability, so it's up to the person figure it out. IMO, it functions as spellstrike for your phantom weapon no matter it's type, ranged of melee.
So should we also expand upon what text is replaced and eliminate "This attack uses the weapon’s critical range..." :)
No, when it says instead of using any weapon, use the phantom weapon, the only text to be replaced is the type of weapon. Or do you want to suggest that your text of "any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack" is replaced by "phantom weapon" somehow also removes this text from spellstrike
And then it don't replace "To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding .... in the other hand."
I perfectly agree that the RAW reading should be "To use this ability, the Phantom blade must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding the phantom weapon in the other hand.", but the author said that it don't work this way.
Even extending the replacement part further, we still have: "To use this ability, the Phantom blade must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding the phantom weapon."
Note: I don't agree with the author. I am arguing what his interpretation of the rules do, not what I think a Phantom blade will do if read RAW.
In agreement with you here. To get the authors RAI, a lot would have to change in the RAW to make those match. Personally I'm not a fan of the authors intentions on it either.
You know, there's another way to consider why Phantom Blade wouldn't give you Ranged Spellstrike, at least not with the usual bow. Phantom Blade's Spellstrike absolutely must be delivered through the weapon itself... and if you're shooting a bow the thing hitting the target isn't the bow, it's the arrows. Now if you had a Thrown Weapon that might be more arguable, but then Returning isn't on your list of enhancements and your pool for the Tether is not infinite.
You know, there's another way to consider why Phantom Blade wouldn't give you Ranged Spellstrike, at least not with the usual bow. Phantom Blade's Spellstrike absolutely must be delivered through the weapon itself... and if you're shooting a bow the thing hitting the target isn't the bow, it's the arrows. Now if you had a Thrown Weapon that might be more arguable, but then Returning isn't on your list of enhancements and your pool for the Tether is not infinite.That's... the same thing. Go read magus and eldritch archer archetype. Literally everything you said was wrong
Wait, wasn't there a recent FAQ that changed Bows and Arrows. So maybe in retrospect due to the FAQ he is right.
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You know, there's another way to consider why Phantom Blade wouldn't give you Ranged Spellstrike, at least not with the usual bow. Phantom Blade's Spellstrike absolutely must be delivered through the weapon itself... and if you're shooting a bow the thing hitting the target isn't the bow, it's the arrows. Now if you had a Thrown Weapon that might be more arguable, but then Returning isn't on your list of enhancements and your pool for the Tether is not infinite.
If your weapon is manifested and fastened to a Blinkback Belt it should return. You would need quick draw to make multiple throw attacks in a turn. Add chill touch for 1 attack/level with spellstrike and you will have a lot of fun.
You can give your weapon the throwing ability, so with a BB belt you can throw your keen rapier/scimitar for even more "fun".
Rule and Lore Creative Director
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Just as a quick note, I went in intending two things with the phantom weapon:
1. You can choose any phantom weapon type you want so long as you are proficient with it, including two-handed weapons and ranged weapons.
2. The versatility comes at a cost. You can either go one-handed and use Spell Combat or you can go with other weapons that are not the "typical" magus fare.
I never intended for ranged spell combat and I'm sorry for any confusion the archetype is causing. Porting the black blade over takes a lot of rules and clarification and I feel now that my understanding of the archetype didn't come across as it needed to in the rules text.
I'd be happy to answer any questions on the archetype, but just keep in mind that my word is not law. Hopefully, I can clear some things up!
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I'd be happy to answer any questions on the archetype, but just keep in mind that my word is not law. Hopefully, I can clear some things up!
Thank you.
Developer feedback is always welcome and appreciated.
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Just as a quick note, I went in intending two things with the phantom weapon:
1. You can choose any phantom weapon type you want so long as you are proficient with it, including two-handed weapons and ranged weapons.
2. The versatility comes at a cost. You can either go one-handed and use Spell Combat or you can go with other weapons that are not the "typical" magus fare.
I never intended for ranged spell combat and I'm sorry for any confusion the archetype is causing. Porting the black blade over takes a lot of rules and clarification and I feel now that my understanding of the archetype didn't come across as it needed to in the rules text.
I'd be happy to answer any questions on the archetype, but just keep in mind that my word is not law. Hopefully, I can clear some things up!
So, no ranged spell combat. What about ranged spellstrike?
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Spellstrike (Su): At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack. Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell.
The archetype doesn't change the bolded section. Spellstrike remains melee-only.
Yeah, for the most part, cantrip is just thought of as part of spells but then you have archetypes that just trades out cantrips and leaves spellcasting alone: Spellslinger for example. So I agree, picking medium most likely means 0 level spells too but it's annoying to have it left up to us to figure it out. I can understand the need to condense abilities to fit them into the books but a standardised method of doing so would make it easier to figure out and I would prefer a way to to it where we don't have to assume anything.Cantrips and Orisons were nice to have when transitioning to Pathfinder, and Knacks followed suit for psychic casting. It's more of an annoying hang-on now that can be overlooked in design.
As for whether or not they should get 0-level spells, the bloodrager has the same exact framework without 0-level spells. The reason to use the medium is to include them. To be most correct, the Dandy archetype should have included a Cantrip class ability, though.
Yes, Cantrips/Orisons/Knacks, Spells, and Spellbooks are separate Class Features. Some writers write archetypes with that in mind, but others treat them a single Class Feature. It drives me nuts.