Hi everyone, Marco Here.
Long story shorts: The last session, my players, end up with a lot of negative levels. And for a lot i mean really a lot.
Now...from the rulebook negative level say this:
The creature is also treated
as one level lower for the purpose of level-dependent
variables (such as spellcasting) for each negative level
possessed. Spellcasters do not lose any prepared spells or
slots as a result of negative levels.
To me, this sentence, say that a 4th level wizard with 2 negative level count as a 2nd level witzard for his CASTER LEVEL. I'm a wrong?
He do not lose his slot (so he can still cast the same amount of spells of a 4th level wizard) but...he lose the CASTER LEVEL.Problem is...if he lose the caster level he lose, rules as written, the capacity to cast some spells.
From the Magic section:
You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal,
but the caster level you choose must be high enough for
you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent
features must be based on the same caster level.
So...this sentence say, pretty clear to me, that you can't cast a fireball as a 2nd level wizard, doing 2d6, because the minimum caster level for fireball is five.
So...my players can cast high level spell even if they don't have the required caster level?
Do negative level modify caster level at all?
Do negative level modify base attack bonus in regard of feat like power attack or improved critical?
What are this "level dependent variable"? There is list a somewhere?
The only thing that i found saying "level dependent" is the character advancement table, pag. 30 of the Core Rulebook.
In that table, the only things described and treated as level-dependent are ability score gain and feats.
Thank you for the answers.
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I'm curious about the answer to this as well. I had this happen to my Cleric the last game I played, reducing him initially from 9th to 7th, and then to 6th. I had Death Ward prepared, but once I had 3 negative levels, the GM ruled that I couldn't cast 4th level spells anymore. I always thought it only affected the variables, meaning duration, range, damage, etc., and not the actual spells available. But I could see his point as well, and we survived the fight, so it didn't ultimately matter.
Your GM see this rule as me and, to me, all the hint are pretty strong towards this interpretation.
For example, the magic item creation, use the same words of the Magic section of the core rulebook that i quoted in my first post.
You just can't cast a spell of 3rd level power (protection from energy) as a caster level 1.
Anyway, always in the magic section, is clearly written that you obtain (and mantain) your spell slot so, your cleric, have the 4° level slots...and he can use these slots for lower level spells with or without metamagic feats (for example you can prepare a still cure serious wounds or maximized cure light wounds or simply a cure light wounds)
You can cast the 2nd level spell, but say it does d8 + Caster Level in damage, you are only going to do 1d8+2 instead of 1d8+4. You don't lose spell slots. I have seen tables require Spellcraft or Concentration checks to cast spells over their new "effective" level, but that is firmly in the Homerules camp.
You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal,
but the caster level you choose must be high enough for
you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent
features must be based on the same caster level.
The key bit is here is "you can" and "you choose". This section is about the option to choose to cast a spell at a lower level.
It is not a limiter if you don't have a choice to cast at a lower level.The only requirement you must meet to cast a spell is found in every spell casting class spells ability.
To prepare or cast a spell, a cleric must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level.
So if you take ability drain (but not damage) to your primary casting stat, you may find yourself unable to cast your higher level spells, but negative levels do not affect your ability scores.
DHQ,
You forgot the other requirement, you must have an empty spell slot of the appropriate level to 'mem' the spell in to. Since our subject wizard presumably meets both of those requirements, he can mem and cast the spells but lacks the oomph to make them as effective as they once were.
What's more confusing is permanent negative levels give you a save every day to overcome them.
Not really 'permanent'....
What's more confusing is permanent negative levels give you a save every day to overcome them.
Not really 'permanent'....
Because you are confusing permanent and temporary.
The negative level that give you a new saving throw are the temporary, not the permanent one.A creature with temporary negative levels receives a new saving throw to remove the negative level each day.
The key bit is here is "you can" and "you choose". This section is about the option to choose to cast a spell at a lower level.
It is not a limiter if you don't have a choice to cast at a lower level.The only requirement you must meet to cast a spell is found in every spell casting class spells ability.
Ok...i see your point here and you think this rule
In the event that a class feature or other special ability provides an adjustment to your caster level, that adjustment applies not only to effects based on caster level (such as range, duration, and damage dealt), but also to your caster level check to overcome your target’s spell resistance and to the caster level used in dispel checks (both the dispel check and the DC of the check).
..mean that if something change your caster level don't prevent anyway your ability to cast every spell you have prepared or that you can prepare right?
Can your answer to my other questions pls? Like negative level and bab dependent things (feat like power attack and so on).
DHQ,
You forgot the other requirement, you must have an empty spell slot of the appropriate level to 'mem' the spell in to. Since our subject wizard presumably meets both of those requirements, he can mem and cast the spells but lacks the oomph to make them as effective as they once were.
I considered that having a spell available as more preparation than casting. But yes, if you don't have the spell prepared or an available spell slot then you can't cast at all.
Can your answer to my other questions pls? Like negative level and bab dependent things (feat like power attack and so on).
A "level dependent variable" is any ability that specifically depends on your level - there isn't a universal list of abilities, you need to read the ability. Lets look at a Paladins Smite Evil as an example.
If this target is evil, the paladin adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack rolls and adds her paladin level to all damage rolls made against the target of her smite.
It does not apply to things like sneak attack, as while you gain that at specific levels it does not depend on your level. It does not contain the magic words "/level" or "every 2 levels" or something similar.
With regard to spells it includes range, duration and any other aspect that refers to level - such as fireballs 1d6/caster level.
Negative levels give you a penalty to hit and do not reduce your BAB so power attack is not affected.
Can your answer to my other questions pls? Like negative level and bab dependent things (feat like power attack and so on).A "level dependent variable" is any ability that specifically depends on your level - there isn't a universal list of abilities, you need to read the ability. Lets look at a Paladins Smite Evil as an example.
If this target is evil, the paladin adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack rolls and adds her paladin level to all damage rolls made against the target of her smite.It does not apply to things like sneak attack, as while you gain that at specific levels it does not depend on your level. It does not contain the magic words "/level" or "every 2 levels" or something similar.
With regard to spells it includes range, duration and any other aspect that refers to level - such as fireballs 1d6/caster level.
Negative levels give you a penalty to hit and do not reduce your BAB so power attack is not affected.
Thank you for the answer!
This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter
Another question...are you 100% sure that if you have 2 negative level (permanent of course) your sneak attack remain the same?
Because if the paladin do less damage...why the rogue or the cleric's channel don't follow the same rule since the sneak attack say clearly that increases every 2 level?
Thank you too pizza lord!
Unfortunally it seems to be a clear confusion on this topic since dragonhunterq say negative level work differently.
I will wait a bit more hoping for other answers at this point.