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I'm trying to come up with a monster that doesn't exist in the Bestiary index. At lowish levels. I've got a draft, but something needs fixing...
This appears to be an odd garden of moss, ferns, and spongy growths.
XP 2,400
N Gargantuan plant
Init –2; Senses low-light vision; Perception +9
< Defense >
AC 13, touch 4, flat-footed 13 (–2 Dex, +9 natural, –4 size)
HP 59 (7d8+28); fast healing 5
Fort +9, Ref +3, Will +5
CMD 29 (can't be tripped)
DR 5/magic; Immunities amorphous, plant traits
< Offense >
Speed 5 ft
Melee 4 tentacles +17 (1d8+12 B)
CMB +21 (+4 on grapples; 2 tentacles necessary)
Space 20 ft (5 ft tall); Reach 10 ft
Special Attacks blood drain (1d2 Con) + distraction (DC 17)
< Statistics >
Str 34, Dex 6, Con 18, Int 3, Wis 8, Cha 3
Base Atk +5; CMB +21; CMD 29
Feats Improved Grapple [and 3 more]
Skills Perception +9
Languages [any one] (cannot speak)
< Special Abilities >
- Amorphous (Ex) Immune to critical hits, flanking, or additional damage from precision-based attacks.
- Blood Drain (Ex) Drains blood at the end of its turn if it grapples a foe -- inflicting 1d2 Con damage and causing targets that fail a DC 17 Fortitude check to be nauseated for 1 round (Distraction).
- Plant traits (Ex) Immune to mind-affecting effects, paralysis, poison, polymorph, sleep effects, & stunning.
< Explanation & Questions >
What I want is a monster that can easily be avoided or run away from -- unless you happen to need to get to the other side of its room, when it should become a nasty hazard.
The AC is really low, but then it's got other defenses. Hopefully it balances out correctly?? The Con is lower than base for the size, too, which leads to lower HP, in deference to the fast healing 5.
I want the high CMB & CMD, but the melee attack bonus & damage (even after arbitrarily reducing the size of the tentacles one step) are way too high. (And given that there are no other melee/ranged attacks, tentacles do apparently count as primary.) What to do?
At least without a grab ability the ferny bloodsucker has to pick between slamming and draining for each pair of tentacles. Yes, I want my monster to be able to grapple two foes, but is blood-draining and nauseating them both too OP?
I'm picturing medium-size characters or smaller as moving among the foliage of this creature, just as they would hack their way through foliage in general. What do I need to allow this?
Thanks for your help!
So far, I agree completely with Pizza Lord.
As is the vines should do MORE damage with a 1.5str modifier for a primary natural attack.
I agree that the blood drain for a CR6 is a bit much, minor bleed or even an acid effect would probably work better and remain thematic for a plant.
The damage is high, but not un-survivable.
Perhaps you could switch it to an armor spike equivalent, and change the "vines" to a longer ranged pure grapple mechanism.
Then the vines could be 20-30-60ft long, maybe with a bleed effect or acid effect 1d2/1d4. The armor spikes could then become secondary, and act as a natural DR/Magic Slashing for the creature, symbiotic living armor instead of part of the creature proper.
Vine Whips: +26 Grapple (1d2 bleed or 1d4 acid each round a creature begins grappled). The creature is never considered grappled itself.
Fern Spikes: +13 (1d4+12 S).
Special Attacks: Vine Snap: Creature targets a square and launches a vine at tremendous velocity up to 60ft. All targets in a 5ft radius must succeed vs a DC17 FORT or become Dazed for 1 round. All targets in a 20ft radius must save for a DC17 FORT or become deafened for 1 minute.
Special Movement: The creature can spend a full round action using its free vines to partially bury itself in soft soil or sand, thus gaining partial cover and +4 AC until it moves again.
(This could also help with STEALTH for the initial ambush).
Spores, dirt, or even insect clouds could help vs ranged attacks a little. Which is an obvious weakness of the creature.
So this is what I've got:
This appears to be an odd garden of moss, ferns, and spongy growths.
XP 2,400
N Gargantuan plant
Init –2; Senses blindsight (blind); Perception +9
< Defense >
AC 13, touch 4, flat-footed 13 (–2 Dex, +9 natural, –4 size)
HP 73 (7d8+42); fast healing 5
Fort +10, Ref +2, Will +4
CMD 29 (can't be tripped)
DR 10/slashing or magic; Immunities amorphous, blind, plant traits
< Offense >
Speed 5 ft, Burrow 5 ft (movement uses short roots)
Melee 4 thorny vines +13 (1d4 P plus 1d2 bleed plus grab), reach 30 ft;
bladed ferns +8 (1d6+6 S), reach 0 ft.
CMB +21 (+4 to grapple; is never considered grappled itself.)
Space 20 ft (5 ft tall); Reach 30 ft thorny vines; 0 ft bladed ferns
Special Attacks bleed (1d2), captivating spore cloud
< Statistics >
Str 34, Dex 6, Con 22, Int 3, Wis 8, Cha 3
Base Atk +5; CMB +21; CMD 29
Feats Combat Reflexes, Stand Still, [+2]
Skills Perception +9
Languages [any one] (cannot speak)
SQ Camouflage
< Special Abilities >
<*> Bleed (Ex) Secretes a sap that prevents clotting, inflicting additional damage each round at the start of the target's turn (which stacks with later attacks). This bleeding can be stopped by a successful DC 15 Heal skill check or through any magical healing.
<*> Blindsight (Ex) Pinpoints breathing creatures or moving objects within 60 ft (given line of effect) via vibrations in the ground and currents in the air.
<*> Camouflage (Ex) Looks like a normal patch of ferny vegetation when at rest, so a successful DC 17 Perception check is required to notice it before it attacks for the first time. Survival or Knowledge (nature) may be substituted for Perception to notice the plant. The save DC is Constitution-based.
<*> Captivating Spore Cloud (Ex) May release a dense cloud of spores in a 20-foot spread centered on the ferny bloodsucker which persists for 2d4 rounds unless dispersed by moderate or stronger wind. The cloud obscures the area affected (as Obscuring Mist). It further has the power to lull the minds of those that smell the spores (a mind-affecting effect). All creatures in the cloud at release or who enter it while it persists must succeed on a DC 17 Will saving throw or become captivated. If captivated, a creature takes no actions save to approach the center of the ferny bloodsucker (as if in difficult terrain when in an area occupied by the ferny bloodsucker) via the most direct route possible. If this path leads it into an area that is dangerous for any reason other than being occupied by the ferny bloodsucker, such as through fire or off a cliff, that creature receives a second saving throw to end the effect before moving into peril. A victim that is attacked by the ferny bloodsucker gets a new saving throw as an immediate action to overcome the effect, but if it succeeds, it is dazed for the next round. Once a creature succeeds on the Will save to avoid or end being captivated, it cannot be captivated again by any ferny bloodsucker's captivating spore cloud for 24 hours. Once a ferny bloodsucker has used its spore cloud attack, it cannot do so again for 1 minute. The save DC is Constitution-based.
< Explanation & Questions, v. 2.0 >
Yes, this is an ambush monster.
I changed the senses.
Looking at the low DPR, I upped the DR, and went back to a Con of 22, to add 14 HP & +2 Fort -- except that I then reduced all of the saves by 1, to make them closer to book values for CR 6.
I simply gave the critter Burrow 5 ft with its roots. Is that materially different from a special movement?
I realized that I had forgotten the size mod for the to-hit on the vines, which brings that down to manageable. And I do need the grab ability; I forgot to check the prereqs for Improved Grapple. Note that I no longer require a pair of "tentacles" for the grab -- can it now grapple (and damage) 4 creatures?
On feats, Combat Reflexes & Stand Still look great! However, since I've raised the Con & HP, I'd rather do something else than rather than Endurance & Diehard. And is Blind-fighting necessary even with the new spore cloud? It's got blindsight! Any other ideas?
Repeat Q: I'm picturing medium-size characters or smaller as moving among the foliage of this creature, just as they would hack their way through foliage in general -- through difficult terrain, of course. What do I need to allow this?
For the walking among it, a space of 20ft is for humanoid or vertical creatures, and they can be 32 to 64ft TALL, and the floor space is for typical creatures, but exceptions exist.
Second last chart shows the size difference effectively
Your creature could be 64ft (60ft area) by 40ft (flattened area, moving is 20ft) by 5ft (tall, doubled to 10ft when compressed and moving).
Oozes are a great example, there is one called Living Lake that occupies 100ft flat.
Then it could easily occupy a massive space, and with INT 3 it is more than capable of delaying attacks until foes are well inside its reach. Then with symbiotic "natural armor spikes", it would take no damage from the hacking and slashing as they tread the "rough terrain" at half speed.
Yes, you would have 4 grab attacks at a time.
Burrow is basically the same thing, it could easily burrow for 2 rounds to heal, which would give the party equal time to heal and change equipment out. Then round 2 could start (maybe at 75%hp it comes back).
You could add monster feats as well: Improved natural armor, or Ability focus for +2 DC to spores.
I would be careful about having too low saves, your touch AC is already terrible so you will take a lot of primary damage hits, saves could reduce the secondary damages a little and help prolong the fight.
Blind fight is irrelevant with blindsight (Vibrations)
You still lack an effective way to deal with range, but burrow could at least see the creature flee or slowly chase after. If it waits until they are well inside its space, then ranged should not be an issue.
I could easily see variants of this creature for mushroom gardens, desert cactus fields, or jungle/temperate clearing variants with different symbiotic attacks and benefits.
This time, I'm just copying the stuff with changes, which I've bolded...
Gargantuan plant [I want it to occupy at most 30x30x5 ft, so what size should it be?]
Senses blind; blindsight & tremorsense 60 ft
< Defense >
AC 16, touch 7, flat-footed 15 (+1 Dex, +9 natural, –4 size)
Fort +10, Ref +5, Will +3 [I previously had Will 1 pt higher than it should have been for Wis 8, plus I've raised Dex.]
CMD 34 (cannot be tripped) [Augmented for Defensive Combat Training plus Dex.]
[In general, I'm now going with higher defenses but low DPR. (Plus I wanted to reward my feat choices a tad!) So all 3 changes reflect increasing Dex to 13. This baby is still a heckuva big thing and easy to touch, but the other ACs are distinctly improved.]
DR 10/magic & slashing
< Offense >
bladed ferns +8 (1d6+6 S), reach 0 ft. [This is only 1 bladed fern attack/turn, right?]
Space 20 ft (5 ft tall) [Should this be "Space 30 ft (5 ft tall)"?]
< Statistics >
Str 34, Dex 13, Con 22, Int 3, Wis 8, Cha 3 [As noted above, I upped Dex by 7 pts.]
Feats Combat Reflexes, Defensive Combat Training, Nimble Moves, Stand Still. [No, it's not nimble, but it's tough to handle with combat maneuvers and flexible enough to flow over obstacles at its normal stately pace.]
SQ Camouflage, Low Profile
< Special Abilities >
Grab (Ex) If the target of a grab is not in a square occupied by or adjacent to the ferny bloodsucker, the grab pulls the target to an adjacent open space or it fails. The ferny bloodsucker does not gain the grappled condition itself. It may maintain up to 4 grapples/turn (with the +5 circumstance bonus); while automatically doing normal thorny vine damage, it may pin its target or move it 5 feet into a square it occupies, toward its center, without giving the target a free attempt to break the grapple. It must remain stationary, however, while maintaining a grapple.
[Looking over the rules, I'm picturing the following:
- 1st round: I make a successful attack with a thorny vine, roll damage, and make a grab attempt at CMB +25 -- which must involve pulling the target to an adjacent open square if farther away.
- Later rounds: If I maintain the grapple at CMB +30, I do thorny vine damage, and can ALSO pin my target or move it 5 feet into a square my critter occupies. Note that this will let me opt to additionally make a bladed ferns attack.]
Captivating Spore Cloud (Ex) May release a dense cloud of spores in a 20-foot spread centered on the ferny bloodsucker which persists for 2d4 rounds unless dispersed by moderate or stronger wind. The cloud obscures the area affected (as Obscuring Mist). It further has the power to lull the minds of those that smell the spores (a mind-affecting effect). All creatures in the cloud at release or who enter it while it persists must succeed on a DC 17 Will saving throw or become captivated. If captivated, a creature takes no actions save to approach the center of the ferny bloodsucker (as if in difficult terrain when in an area occupied by the ferny bloodsucker) via the most direct route possible. If this path leads it into an area that is dangerous for any reason other than being occupied by the ferny bloodsucker, such as through fire or off a cliff, that creature receives a second saving throw to end the effect before moving into peril. A victim that is attacked by the ferny bloodsucker gets a new saving throw as an immediate action to overcome the effect, but if it succeeds, it is dazed for the next round. Once a creature succeeds on the Will save to avoid or end being captivated, it cannot be captivated again by any ferny bloodsucker's spore cloud for 24 hours, but if captivation simply ends because the spore cloud disperses, the creature must make a new save if subject to another such cloud or be captivated again. Once a ferny bloodsucker has used its spore cloud attack, it cannot do so again for 1 minute. The save DC is Constitution-based. [What do you think?]
Low Profile (Ex) Creatures smaller than it can occupy the same squares as it does, and move among its foliage as if through difficult terrain. [What do you think?]
< Conclusion >
This may be a low DPR monster, but it now has robust defenses and could render an entire party of four helpless and ultimately dead. What is the right CR?
How do you make spoilers?
How do you make spoilers?
You can check the spoiler under "How to format your text" at the bottom of your screen, below the edit box, for a lot of codes. But I can sympathize; I found some of the codes given for things like spoilers hard to understand from the brief text given.
Version 1: I turned a crucial = into ~ in the first code so you can read it! (I also italicized the text to be spoilered, to set it apart from the spoiler codes. The italics codes won't show up on your screen, of course.)
[spoiler~Movie plot spoiler]This is a spoiler, such as revealing who really did frame Roger Rabbit.[/spoiler]
<<< >>>
Version 2: This time, I used the = in my code instead of ~, so the post would appear normally and you can see how the various bits of text show up -- what's the title for the spoiler, and what's the spoilered text.
<<< >>>
Version 3: This time, there's no title at all. I simply left out the = and any text after it within the square brackets. The main text is unchanged.
<<< >>>
I hope this helped! If you have questions about other formatting in "How to format your text," just ask.
Btw, I've noticed another effect of upping the Dex: Init is now +1.
This time, I'm just copying the stuff with changes, which I've bolded...
** spoiler omitted **...
You can increase the flat size to be up to 64ftx20ftx20ft for a gargantuan prone creature to give the players more creature to walk onto.
It looks tough, but not unbeatable, your players should be able to do damage every round exceeding DR/10+FH5, so it shouldn't seem an impossible fight to win.
Grapples will annoy, and the grappled damage should encourage them to escape rather than counter attack, thus extending the fight.
Technically your bladed ferns could be as a single slam, or as damage on the grapple and they are dragged past them. I like to think the creature just heaves upwards and slams everyone that was standing on it (or they fall ft back down onto the ferns).
I like the low profile.
CR6-7 still seems appropriate, its defenses should be crackable, and a good party could overcome the damages (or even tank the ferns) by this point. Party AC should be from 18-25 easy before spells. Attacks should be from +9 to +12 at base levels as well, damage will be the main factor on fight duration, as long as they can do 12 dmg on each hit they will make progress on it. If they can overcome DR, even better. I might actually suggest maximizing its HP, because 4 players could likely drop it by 40hp a round together.
But yes, it would be easy to raise the CR at some point and bump the size to Colossal, at which point the lid on horizontal coverage is off.
When I think about my party, I think I'll have to go back to DR 5. However, I always max out HP for my monsters; I was giving the typical average HP so you all would recognize numbers. Thanks for the encouragement that it's manageable as CR 6!
Pizza Lord, this critter likes to capture prey and digest its meals slowly, so I want it to have discretion on the bladed ferns. I totally follow your thought on the 1 pt bleed. Therefore I now have:
< Offense >
Melee 4 thorny vines +13 (1d4 P plus grab plus 1 pt bleed), reach 30 ft
Base Atk +5; CMB +21 (+4 grapple; is not itself grappled)
SQ bladed ferns +8 (1d6+6 S); bleed (1 pt); captivating spores (2d4 rnds, Will DC 17)
< Special Abilities >
[...]
Bladed Ferns (Ex) As a swift action, it may attack any or all creatures within its space at the end of its turn with bladed ferns, melee +8 (1d6+6 S) -- reach 0 ft.
Bleed (Ex) It inflicts 1 pt of bleed damage per thorny vine strike (stacking) at the start of its targets’ turns, due to sap that prevents clots.
Grab (Ex) If its target isn’t in a Ferny Bloodsucker-occupied or adjacent square, the grab pulls the target to an adjacent open space or fails. The creature doesn’t become grappled, & maintains up to 4 grapples/turn (+5 circumstance bonus). Maintaining a grapple does normal damage automatically, and it may pin a target or move it 5 feet into an occupied square toward its center (without a free attempt to break the grapple), but the FB must remain stationary while maintaining a grapple.
//////
And now we get to the nubbin: Are spore victims fascinated?
Fascinated: A fascinated creature is entranced by a supernatural or spell effect. The creature stands or sits quietly, taking no actions other than to pay attention to the fascinating effect, for as long as the effect lasts. It takes a –4 penalty on skill checks made as reactions, such as Perception checks. Any potential threat, such as a hostile creature approaching, allows the fascinated creature a new saving throw against the fascinating effect. Any obvious threat, such as someone drawing a weapon, casting a spell, or aiming a ranged weapon at the fascinated creature, automatically breaks the effect. A fascinated creature's ally may shake it free of the spell as a standard action.
There's a lot of features there that I don't care for! Maybe for CR 6 I should live with them anyway, but I don't like them. The target is in a hostile environment by definition, so it's getting Will saves every turn. I could just say so. But letting an ally shake a victim free as a standard action, not so good. And I certainly don't want the effect broken the instant the FB attacks! So here's my next attempt at wording:
//////Captivating Spores (Ex) Once per minute, the ferny bloodsucker may release a dense cloud of spores in a 20-foot radius spread centered on it. The spore cloud persists for 2d4 rounds or until a moderate or stronger wind disperses it, and obscures the area (as Obscuring Mist). All creatures within or entering the cloud must succeed at a DC 17 Will saving throw or become captivated. Captivated victims get a new save at the beginning of each turn; failure means they take no actions other than to approach the center of the ferny bloodsucker and stand there. If a captivated creature succeeds on a new save to end the effect, or the effect ends because the cloud is dispersed, the victim is dazed for 1 round. Targets who have actually saved to resist this effect are immune to the spores of any ferny bloodsucker for 24 hours. Captivation is a mind-affecting ability. The save DC is Constitution-based.
What do you think, especially of the Captivating Spores?
And yes, this critter is much improved. Thank you!
Captivated certainly trumps fascinated. At DC17 a few will break out, and the rest will just have to keep trying or hope a spell caster is wise enough to boost their saves for a bit (after throwing some fireballs of course).
You can easily leave some contextual clues on remains to let them think something bad is up ahead so they prebuff. Then let them walk into nothing (heh), then spring the feast (er, encounter) halfway into the area, spores then captivate, and thorns begin the mastication (um, attack).
I might suggest giving them reason to enter the area such as a door on the other side, undigested coins and armor scattered about (uh, situational treasure I mean).
You have the stats down, the behaviors down, motivation down (food), and the strategies and environment down, now you just need the party down (I mean encountering).
Glad to help, it is fun coming up with custom encounters, especially for knowledgeable parties. Keeps the GM's having fun, and the players guessing and having fun. Happy Gaming!
Well, we finished the encounter. And I'm afraid my Ferny Bloodsucker won.
At least, it tied one PC up and with the high CMB & CMD that it has, the only way that the character was going to get free was to roll a 20. And he just didn't have much in the way of "OK, I'll kill you instead!" options. One player eventually realized that the way to deal with the mounting bleed was any kind of cure or channel, but my little gnome was down a lot of HP by then. Plus, no one thought to back off and try ranged tactics.
Fortunately for the party, they had thoroughly slaughtered or unnerved the forces of evil the day before. Most of the BBEV's allies had fled, in fact. All that were left for Day 2 were the BBEV (V for villainess) in her bedroom upstairs, the Ferny Bloodsucker in a garden dug within the cellar, and a few paltry zombies. The BBEV proposed via a hole in the cellar ceiling (used for casting Create Water) an offer for a three-day truce.
Faced with the likely death of one of their own, the party took it.
The good news is that the BBEV agreed to leave the area and stop plaguing the village they were protecting. Leaving behind her hostage. And has done so! And when the party returned to the house as agreed upon three days later, they burned it, killing the effectively imprisoned bloodsucker. The BBEV took with her a fair amount of the magic stuff they could have gotten, but then this party isn't greedy.
All in all, it ended reasonably well, but not on a celebratory high. I'm inclined to think that the Ferny Bloodsucker was a tad higher a CR than I thought...
Thanks, Lady-J. I've seen this, though, and it's not as helpful as I'd like. Let me step through it with you, if only to learn better how to use that section of the rules...
Low AC, CR 3 to 4 -- +9 natural armor was reduced by -4 size, and supplemented by only +1 Dex.
HP looks spot on for CR 6 -- HP 73 (7d8+42). BUT I gave it fast healing 5, with no way to know how that raised the CR. The party was dishing out more damage than 5 pts a round, but it added a fair amount to the HP reservoir, all the same.
Saves are soooo confusing to me! In the end, I gave it base saves of 4 across the board. This amounts to CR 5 for its good save, Fort, and CR 12! for its poor saves of Ref & Will. Nonetheless, looking at the top chart, Fort ended up CR 7, Ref CR 6, and Will CR 4. (I obviously believed the top chart rather than the one lower down. Had I reduced the base save for Ref & Will to CR 6's base save of 2, the end result would have been CR 4 & 2.)
Again, I didn't account for its special defenses: DR 5/magic & slashing; Immunities - amorphous, blind, plant traits
I didn't account for the slow speed of 5 ft, either, or for its burrow 5 ft. It was effectively boxed in for this encounter and did not move.
The BAB +5 is CR 7, on medium BAB. OK, that should have been BAB +4; I don't know how I glitched that.
As a result, the Atk +13 w/ the thorny vines is CR 7, too.
The damage for that attack is hard to calculate, because it's 1d4+bleed 1, stacking. (The stacking is what caused all of the consternation.) I assessed CR 5, after adding up 4 attacks together -- that is, any one PC was taking only CR 1/2 in damage per round if healing was provided. However, the grab makes assessing that damage more problematic, since it was automatically applied once a grapple was engaged. And the ultra-high CMB/CMD meant that once a vine manages to wrap around you, you weren't getting free.
The special attack with the bladed ferns (AoE swift action, +8 melee (1d6+6 S), reach 0 ft.) looked like a nifty idea in line for CR 6, but as I think about my monster it's the feature I most want to drop from future uses for this critter. The normal-like damage deviated from my concept of a low DPR, high defense critter. In this fight, I simply stopped using it.
And then we get the captivating spore cloud with its CR 7 DC 17 Will save. There was some bitterness at the table over that. I mitigated the write-up as I saw the beastie in action: I quietly eliminated the round of being dazed after you make your save.
The Dex had +7 added to boost defenses, including CMD -- which made getting out of its grapples a matter of rolling a nat-20 for this party. Again, I don't see anywhere how to account for that in terms of CR, given that the AC was still low.
I don't believe the SQ here pose major boosts to CR; the party has decent skill ranks and a high danger-radar, so Camouflage was defeated instantly. Therefore, in turn, Low Profile was not as meaningful.
The fact that the party had to dicker tells me that I hadn't assessed CR properly. And it's important -- because I've gotten at least one vote for a later encounter with this critter! (Which tells me that I didn't flunk at my first monster design, either.) When I think about it, I want to eliminate the bladed ferns as counter-to-concept. So...
What CR was it without them? There's a lot of bold "CR 7"s up above. And yet, there's special abilities that might raise it above CR 7. (Given how many PCs are in the party and other factors, CR-7 was APL+2.)
What other improvements should I make for round 2? (Note: One of them will be to increase the creature's size, and therefore have no limits on its space. That in turn increases Str & Con, and I probably will still refuse to reduce Dex below 13.)
Thanks, Lady-J. I've seen this, though, and it's not as helpful as I'd like. Let me step through it with you, if only to learn better how to use that section of the rules...
** spoiler omitted **...
I think the biggest issue of concern was the party tactics. Forewarned, the same party with no change in level or resources would most likely have a good chance of success. The lack of ranged tactics, lack of prebuffing, and the worst character possible to be captured being the one captured, coupled with lack of counter bleeding (using a fairly easy mundane check, or channel anything solution). This speaks to an inexperienced (or very good at avoiding metagaming) party of players.
The BBEV escape hatch (literally AND metaphorically) is a nice GM fiat doesn't feel too cheap, and this will teach the players the value of running away, talking, or using KNOW.This was likely a memorable loss, without a death, and it will shape future tactics, hopefully. I call that a GM/Player win!
Thanks, Lady-J. Maybe at most Huge would have been better for the low CR. Spread out low, it would have been the 20x20 space I had first considered.
Guardianlord, thanks for your kind perspective.
I do want to fix this thing at the Gargantuan size for a specific CR, so I can pull him out again a bit... bigger...
Provided I drop the Bladed Ferns, the offense feels right for CR-7 to me. Maybe +1 CR for the Will save??
But defenses are tricky.
AC -- CR way below 7.
HP -- CR-7 with the fast healing??
Saves -- CR-6ish, except for the high base Reflex & Will. I'd love specifics on using both of those charts together!
Special defenses -- Again, how much CR do they add? Probably only enough to drag the whole critter up to CR-7 or 8 after taking that AC into account...
I'm thinking that CR-7 is the answer, and better PC tactics the ultimate answer. But I'm open to looking at CR-8.
to fix the ac issues give it natural armor
LOL, all it's got now is natural armor! As I said in my CR examination, the +9 natural armor was reduced by -4 size, and supplemented by only +1 Dex.
However, I could give it more natural armor. I wasn't clear; I don't so much want to improve its AC as balance the low AC with all of those special defenses and figure out what CR that amounts to.
one of the problems you ran into was making a low cr creature colossal size with massive str and cmb they should have been medium or large at most for the cr you were trying to go for and then add a few more hit points to compensate for losing some to hit and hp. most colossal creatures i've seen have been at least cr 14
The lowest colossal monster in print is the CR 8 immense tortoise.
I was coming to the conclusion that the Ferny Bloodsucker (minus the Bladed Fern attack) is CR 8.