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So, I was turned into an aquatic creature, not amphibious, on dry land by Baleful polymorph. According to what I'm reading it says I get a +4 to my save because in the first paragraph it states and I quote "if the new form would PROVE FATAL to the creature, such as an aquatic creature not in water, the subject gets a +4 on this save."
I rolled two 1's and got turned a goldfish. According to this spell, am I instantly dead because of the botched rolls?
No, but you would have to hold your breath since you can no longer breathe air.
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Wouldn't that basically invalidate the example in the spell description though, James?
The specifics of this spell would override the general Polymorph rules. And while it could have been clearer, the spell does say it can kill you.
Though a Goldfish shouldn't die instantly. Just very soon...
My friends goldfish used to make a habit out of jumping out of its tank. you'd be surprised how long they can last outside of water.
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Actually, you can breath air. Plus since it gains a swim speed, you gain the ability to breath in water.
Read the Polymorph sub school and remember you don't turn into a goldfish. You turn into a human that looks like a goldfish.
You are thinking of this piece of the rules.
If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing.
Effectively the Polymorph rules never say that you lose the ability to breath air, they only add the ability to breathe while swimming or burrowing.
@ VRMH Baleful Polymorph don't say anywhere that you lose the ability to breath air. So there is no "specific that override general",
On the other hand you will eventually die if you are a fish on dry land, as you are essentially unable to move and will die of thirst.
My friends goldfish used to make a habit out of jumping out of its tank. you'd be surprised how long they can last outside of water.
Anyone that has done a bit of fishing or had goldfishes know that.
You're fine until your gills start drying out, then, well you're not so good.
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You're fine until your gills start drying out, then, well you're not so good.
You see, the problem is that polymorph don't change you into a fish, it change you into a person with a fish suit.
It don't give you all the advantages of the new form, but it don't give you all the disadvantages, too.RAW you don't breath with your gills, as the spell don't say that you breath with them in fish form. And if you become a toad you don't risk drying up.
A complete guide to polymorph in Pathfinder, even with the current reduction in complexity, would be a book of the size of the CRB.
:P
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Baleful Polymorph don't say anywhere that you lose the ability to breath air.
It says that being turned into "an aquatic creature not in water" would "prove fatal" to the target. It doesn't explain the mechanism through which this happens - inability to breath would be the 'obvious' answer.
I suspect whoever wrote the Baleful Polmorph description didn't fully understand the polymorph rules.
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I suspect whoever wrote the Baleful Polmorph description didn't fully understand the polymorph rules.If I recall correctly, baleful polymorph originates in 3.5 (replacing the increasingly-broken polymorph other), and thus predates Pathfinder's changes to the polymorph rules. ^_^
Kalindlara is right.
If the new form would prove fatal to the creature (for example, if you polymorphed a landbound target into a fish, or an airborne target into a toad), the subject gets a +4 bonus on the save.
The text wasn't changed in Pathfuinder, but the general rules about polymorph where.
If you fail the second save for baleful polymorph[i] you gain all the abilities of the new creature [i]in place of your own. That means you lose all your abilities, including the ability to breathe air, and gain the goldfish's abilities.
None of the other spells in the polymorph subschool do this, [i]Baleful Polymorph[i] is specifically different in this regard.
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If you fail the second save for baleful polymorph[i] you gain all the abilities of the new creature [i]in place of your own. That means you lose all your abilities, including the ability to breathe air, and gain the goldfish's abilities.
None of the other spells in the polymorph subschool do this, Baleful Polymorph[i] is specifically different in this regard.
Not true:
Baleful PolymorphSchool transmutation (polymorph); Level druid 5, sorcerer/wizard 5
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target one creature
Duration permanent
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates, Will partial, see text; Spell Resistance: yes
As beast shape III, except that you change the subject into a Small or smaller animal of no more than 1 HD. If the new form would prove fatal to the creature, such as an aquatic creature not in water, the subject gets a +4 bonus on the save.
If the spell succeeds, the subject must also make a Will save. If this second save fails, the creature loses its extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like abilities, loses its ability to cast spells (if it had the ability), and gains the alignment, special abilities, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores of its new form in place of its own. It still retains its class and level (or HD), as well as all benefits deriving therefrom (such as base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and hit points). It retains any class features (other than spellcasting) that aren't extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like abilities.
Any polymorph effects on the target are automatically dispelled when a target fails to resist the effects of baleful polymorph, and as long as baleful polymorph remains in effect, the target cannot use other polymorph spells or effects to assume a new form. Incorporeal or gaseous creatures are immune to baleful polymorph, and a creature with the shapechanger subtype can revert to its natural form as a standard action.
Could you bold where it say "you gain all the abilities of the new creature [i]in place of your own."?
It list a specific set of abilities that you lose and a list of abilities that you gain.
Breathing is not an exceptional ability. Even less a supernatural or spell-like ability.
Strictly correct, but good luck finding a GM who rules that way though.
Baleful polymorph into a fish on land and I imagine a significant percentage of GMs will rule you suffocate.
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I suspect the average GM will look at the rules, sigh in confusion, search the internet for an answer, and wind up reading this thread.
My friends goldfish used to make a habit out of jumping out of its tank. you'd be surprised how long they can last outside of water.
Goldfish can't remember anything for very long. If your goldfish suffered from brain damage from asphyxia, do you think you would even notice the difference?
So what is the purpose of having polymorph effects hose your extraordinary abilities and supernatural abilities but not your natural abilities? (Which would include the ability to breathe air.)
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Wouldn't that basically invalidate the example in the spell description though, James?
Fatal doesn't have to mean immediately. If you are a goldfish, you won't be able to move around or eat on the land. That's fatal. You get the +4. You can still breath.
So what is the purpose of having polymorph effects hose your extraordinary abilities and supernatural abilities but not your natural abilities? (Which would include the ability to breathe air.)
It's a combat spell. You hose the fighter or wizard. It's both Fort/Will so it's a low chance because it will hose anyone.
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My friends goldfish used to make a habit out of jumping out of its tank. you'd be surprised how long they can last outside of water.Goldfish can't remember anything for very long. If your goldfish suffered from brain damage from asphyxia, do you think you would even notice the difference?
that's a myth - goldfish can remember pretty complex things like the layout of where they are so they can find their way back to places, and they can be trained
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The example given contradicts the general polymorph rules (which are admittedly a bit weird - for example they say that baleful-polymorphing someone into a rat gives them the ability to breath underwater). We have to decide which of the contradictory versions to follow. It's not unreasonable to reject the Baleful Polymorph rule for being too indirect and nonspecific. Is it failing the first save or second save that makes the form fatal? Is it instantly fatal or does it use the drowning rules or what?
It's a bit like the Eagle Shaman. "If she takes on the form of an eagle or roc, she instead uses her druid level + 2."
There was no way under the polymorph rules for them to turn into a roc. So do we invent a way for them to turn into a roc or ignore the implications of rule as written? That was resolved by FAQ. This probably won't be...
So what is the purpose of having polymorph effects hose your extraordinary abilities and supernatural abilities but not your natural abilities? (Which would include the ability to breathe air.)It's a combat spell. You hose the fighter or wizard. It's both Fort/Will so it's a low chance because it will hose anyone.
One, I'm talking about polymorph effects in general, not baleful polymorph in particular. Two, I'm asking about natural abilities. Why give those a pass? Why not hose them along with extraordinary and supernatural abilities?
My guess is they plain forgot that category of ability exists when writing the polymorph rules. It's not mentioned in the glossary, either.
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which is the RAW.
For RAW to be claimed there need to be rules. Only a GM can "determine if it proves fatal", so ask your GM if you apply the +4. No rule covers actually dying, so also ask your GM if you die.
My guess is they plain forgot that category of ability exists when writing the polymorph rules. It's not mentioned in the glossary, either.
Far more likely is they didn't want people to have to lose their human bonus feat, human skilled extra skill ranks, racial weapon proficiency, and other intrinsic features.
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I feel like people are missing the very key and important rule of Polymorph effects: "While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed."
Now, I recently made a ruling in my own games that polymorphing into an Aquatic Animal on land is a "Hold your breath or die" situation. My reasoning for this is that breathing Air is an Ex ability just like how Scent is an Ex ability. It's Extraordinary for an Aquatic Creature.
Now, people are able to rule differently at their own table, but to me it is nonsensical to allow an Octopus or Squid or Fish the ability to breathe air. And no "It's Magic" is not a reasonable answer. And if it is your answer, I feel bad for martials in your group.
To be clear TrinitysEnd, a fish polymorphed into a human wouldn't be able to breath air.
Because rules are written to take into account that the people using them are humanoids not fish. Now, the clause I quoted doesn't cover that situation, but a GM would have to be either a jerk or a comedian to try to make it so you can't breathe air in a form meant to be breathing air.
Does it need to be explicit in this? No. Because almost anyone using these rules won't ever encounter that problem. The only time it would be problematic is if the GM is already so very deeply into houserule or 3pp territory. In which case, they can just keep up the houserules.
James, I have to disagree with your interpretation, no matter that you have a good argument as to the RAW of it. I don't see the alternate view as being prone to serious abuse, and it is more interesting and thematic to me.
Now treating the fish out of water as being the exact reverse of a drowning air-breather suits a certain binary outlook common to a lot of gamestyles, but it really doesn't work that way. Gills are much better at breathing air than lungs are at breathing water. Drying out is the big danger. Not having an efficient way to move around is also a big thing.
Ability's Lung is deadly for the same reason. But it specifically states you can no longer breathe air.
Aquatic Subtype
These creatures always have swim speeds and can move in water without making Swim checks. An aquatic creature can breathe water. It cannot breathe air unless it has the amphibious special quality.
I'd rule you're dead after double your constitution rounds.
Also, racial abilities are extraordinary, so I'm thinking breathing air would be out.
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The "otherwise functions as the bear shaman ability" clause lets them apply the young template.
The FAQ makes it legal, but also admits it isn't legal.
I looked at the bear shaman, and only found mention of the young template in their totemic summons ability. Which has nothing to do with Wild Shape.
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Ability's Lung is deadly for the same reason. But it specifically states you can no longer breathe air.
Aboleth's Lung, I suppose.
Aquatic SubtypeThese creatures always have swim speeds and can move in water without making Swim checks. An aquatic creature can breathe water. It cannot breathe air unless it has the amphibious special quality.
I'd rule you're dead after double your constitution rounds.
Also, racial abilities are extraordinary, so I'm thinking breathing air would be out.
Maybe something in the Advance Race Guide?
Here it is:
Racial traits are divided into several categories: ability score, defense, feat and skill, magical, movement, offense, senses, weakness, and other racial traits. The number of racial traits you can buy from each category depends on the power level of the race you are creating—standard races can pick no more than three traits from each category, advanced races can pick no more than four traits from each category, and monstrous races can pick no more than five traits from each category. Furthermore, traits in each category are organized by type—standard, advanced, and monstrous. Standard races can only select traits from the standard section of each category, advanced races can select traits from the standard or advanced sections, and monstrous races can select from any section.
Unless stated otherwise, all racial traits are extraordinary abilities, and each racial trait can only be taken once.
The following format is used for all racial traits.
Fun list, apparently all racial trait, Skilled included are Ex.
So this become way more complicated:
While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form.
Dwarf Racial Traits+2 Constitution, +2 Wisdom, –2 Charisma: Dwarves are both tough and wise, but also a bit gruff.
Hmmm, that +2 to constitution is Ex and depend on your physical form. Actually all racial stat modifiers to strength, dexterity and constitution depend on your physical form ....
It conflict with "Your ability scores are not modified by this change unless noted by the spell.", but then what happen when we remove the Ex ability?
Defensive Training: Dwarves get a +4 dodge bonus to AC against monsters of the giant subtype.
Ex, and surely you aren't trained in dodging giants in your new form.
Hardy: Dwarves receive a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison, spells, and spell-like abilities.
Ex, and form dependent.
I still don't see "breath air/breath water" in that list, but see a lot of things that will generate further problems.
My friends goldfish used to make a habit out of jumping out of its tank. you'd be surprised how long they can last outside of water.Goldfish can't remember anything for very long. If your goldfish suffered from brain damage from asphyxia, do you think you would even notice the difference?
Good point probably also why he kept doing it.
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Koi Eoke, just for a laugh:
Are you aware that with your interpretation all the Elemental body spells kill the target in a few rounds (with the exception of the water elemental form if you have a body of water or the earth elemental form if you have a location suitable for burrowing).
Elementals do not breathe, eat, or sleep.
So you lose your Ex, shape dependent, ability to breathe air, but none of the elemental shapes spells grant you the ability to live without breathing.
Luckily the water elemental form grant you a swim speed, and so the ability to breathe water. Same thing for an earth elemental if he is in a location where he can burrow. For the others, keep your breath.
(My druid should get his hands on a Clear Spindle Ioun stone, suddenly it has become a very important piece of equipment for him)
Same problem with Undead anatomy:
Undead do not breathe, eat, or sleep.
And same "solutions": become a swimming or burrowing undead to survive.
that's a myth - goldfish can remember pretty complex things like the layout of where they are so they can find their way back to places, and they can be trainedMy friends goldfish used to make a habit out of jumping out of its tank. you'd be surprised how long they can last outside of water.Goldfish can't remember anything for very long. If your goldfish suffered from brain damage from asphyxia, do you think you would even notice the difference?
Myth or not, my question stands.
If your goldfish suffered from brain damage from asphyxia, do you think you would even be able to tell the before and after difference?
Unless it was severe, or you had special training, I doubt you would. If it was severe enough for your average laymen pet owner to notice, the fish is probably dead.