Inner Sea Races: "Mostly Human" & "Pass for Human" Question - Human Subtype vs Human Race

[B. A. Robards-Debardot]

So I'm having a "discussion" with someone about what the alternate racial traits "Mostly Human" and "Pass for Human" from Inner Sea Races actually do. So I thought I would ask for some clarification.

Mostly Human:

A few (Ifrit, Oread, Sylph, Suli, or Undine) have appearances much closer to those of their human ancestors; in fact, they may not even realize their true race. Such geniekin appear to be human, save perhaps minor features like unusual eye color, and they count as humanoid (human) as well as outsider (native) for all purposes (such as humanoid-affecting spells such as charm person or enlarge person). These geniekin do not automatically gain their associated elemental language (but may select it as a bonus language if their Intelligence is high enough). This ability alters the geniekin’s type, subtype, and languages.

Pass for Human:

Discrimination against tieflings with horrifically fiendish features is so intense that even tieflings look up to those precious few of their kind who can pass as human. These tieflings have otherworldly features that are so subtle, they aren’t often noticed unless the tiefling points them out (for example, eyes that flash red in the throes of passion, or fingernails that are naturally hard and pointed). Such a tiefling doesn’t need to succeed at a Disguise check to appear to be human and count as humanoid (human) as well as outsider (native) for all purposes (such as humanoid-affecting spells like charm person or enlarge person). The tiefling does not automatically gain his associated outsider language (but may select it as a bonus language if his Intelligence score is high enough), and he may not select other racial traits that would grant him obviously fiendish features (such as the fiendish sprinter, maw or claw, prehensile tail, scaled skin, or vestigial wings alternate racial traits listed in the Advanced Race Guide). This ability alters the tiefling’s type, subtype, and languages.

We disagree on two points:

Point 1) Semantic Disagreement
- I interpret these traits as adding the humanoid (human) type and subtype to the character.
- He disagrees and says they are only treated as such.

Point 2) Substantive Disagreement


• I believe that the intent of these traits is also to give the character access to all the human FCBs, feats, traits, etc. per the Half-Elf/Half-Orc FAQ, which also covers the Aasimar "Scion of Humanity" Trait.
  
• His argument is that Humanoid(Human)≠Race(Human). So since "Pass for Human" and "Mostly Human" say that the character only "counts as Humanoid(Human) for all purposes" but does not say "counts as Human for any effect related to race", the alternate racial traits do not grant access to the he human FCBs, feats, traits, etc.
  
• He gave me the example of a Deep One Hybrid, arguing that it surely could not have access to human FCBs, feats, traits, etc. However, I actually don't see a problem with a deep-one hybrid having access to those either as they are half-human.
  

Is there something I'm not seeing? Which way should we interpret these? Though it's irrelevant, this is not a GM vs PC argument.

[quibblemuch]

1. I'm not sure what the functional difference would be between "adding humanoid (human)" and "treating as humanoid (human) for all purposes" -- except that a creature cannot have two types (they can have two or more subtypes).

PRD=>Bestiary=>Creature Types wrote:

Each creature has one type, which broadly defines its abilities.

So technically, you are wrong, those racial traits do not add a type to a creature.

Functionally, either position leads to an identical outcome, in terms of game mechanics. Which leads me to...

2. If the other person is claiming that "counts as humanoid (human) for all purposes" does not count as humanoid (human) for some purposes (e.g., feats), then he is using a definition of the word "all" that is at odds with it generally accepted meaning. "All purposes" can't be read much more clearly than "yes that also includes feats, FCB, traits, and anything else that involves being human." So you are correct in the substantive point.

EDIT: What exact game effects does this person think this trait applies to, if not being treated as a human?

EDIT 2: No, seriously. Is he actually claiming that "treated as humanoid (human) for all purposes" somehow excludes a subset of purposes?

[B. A. Robards-Debardot]

quibblemuch wrote:

What exact game effects does this person think this trait applies to, if not being treated as a human?

I don't have an exhaustive list, but I think: spells, Favored Enemy Humanoid(Human), Bane, Disguise skill

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[quibblemuch]

Yeah, that just makes the least sense of possibly anything ever. There's no real argument to be had here. If he is convinced that "all purposes" doesn't mean "all purposes" then there's no help for him.

[Quentin Coldwater]

"Counts as a Human for all purposes" seems to me that it also includes "any effect related to race." That's the purpose of the "for all purposes" part. Every case you can conceive of where Humanoid (Human) would be relevant, it would also be relevant to Outsiders with this trait. "For all purposes" encompasses everything. You can't say "every number between 0 and 10 is a winning number," and later say, "except for 7." 7 is part of the thing you just described, therefore can't be an exception unless specified as such.
The only wrench I could throw in this is that the examples specify things that would work on both outsiders and humanoids, effectively treating outsiders as "persons" for the "<Verb> Person" spells. If that's the case, yeah, they can't take FCBs and feats and such.
But I'd agree that it's probably intended to work like the Aasimar's Scion of Humanity, yeah.

As for the double creature typeline: as already pointed out, you can have only one typeline. No matter how many human ancestors are in your family, you're still an Outsider, not an Outsider/Human. Pathfinder's pretty into purebloods, it seems. But all those humans have weakened your bloodline so much, you're susceptible to spells like them (such as Charm Person/Enlarge Person). Effectively, you still have your Outsider heritage, but there's so much human blood in you, it also pings when race-related things come in effect, such as Favored Enemy and feats and such. The human part of your typeline is virtual, not really baked into your actual typeline.

[Tableflip McRagequit]

Quentin Coldwater wrote:

The only wrench I could throw in this is that the examples specify things that would work on both outsiders and humanoids, effectively treating outsiders as "persons" for the "<Verb> Person" spells. If that's the case, yeah, they can't take FCBs and feats and such.

To expand on your illustration, that kind of thinking would be like saying "All numbers between 0 and 10 are winners (for example, 7)" means "Only 7 is a winning number" or "Only odd numbers are winners, since the example only lists an odd number".

If somebody tried this argument at a game I was at, I'd probably pull something flipping the table so fast... :)

[graystone]

They have the subtype added.

As to the deep one, yes it can take things requiring human.

PRD: "Subtypes are often important to qualify for other racial abilities and feats. If a humanoid has a racial subtype, it is considered a member of that race in the case of race prerequisites."

PRD: Deep One Hybrid [CE Medium humanoid (deep one, human)]

The first quote also illustrates why the subtype is added. "count as humanoid (human)" and "considered a member of that race in the case of race prerequisites" are the same thing.

[B. A. Robards-Debardot]

graystone wrote:

PRD: "Subtypes are often important to qualify for other racial abilities and feats. If a humanoid has a racial subtype, it is considered a member of that race in the case of race prerequisites."

Thanks Graystone, this was what I was looking for. It's pretty unambiguous. But it didn't convince the um... nice people over at Lone Wolf Development / Hero Lab.

So I'll have to continue to make said adjustments manually in their program for now for one of my players, who really benefits from the electronic character sheet (rounds move faster, they can keep track of their character and items a little easier, etc). And in the future I'll have to really consider how much more money I sink into the product.

[graystone]

B. A. Robards-Debardot wrote:

Thanks Graystone, this was what I was looking for. It's pretty unambiguous. But it didn't convince the um... nice people over at Lone Wolf Development / Hero Lab.

Glad I could help and sorry it didn't sway them, though I'm not sure why. If you run into anything else you have questions with, come on back and I'll be happy to see what I can do. ;)