Need Help Rounding Off the Party!


Advice


First, this might be the wrong place to put this because I'm asking for an upcoming Way of the Wicked Campaign. I'm sorry if it is. The questions I'm asking, however, could be applied to any game with similar circumstances, so I figured this would work.

Anyways, I usually GM, but one of my players wants to step up to the plate to run Way of the Wicked for us. I'm totally cool with this, but we only have three PCs. The other two have already decided their characters, and, due to our small party size, I want to make sure we're a capable adventuring team. (For those who don't know, Way of the Wicked is a third-party, six-book adventure module for evil characters.)

So, as of now, the other two characters are as follows: A Human Cleric (Healing and Destruction/Torture Domains). He's going to try to be a tank and fight up on the front lines with our other character. He's a Dhampir Qinggong Hungry Ghost Monk (Not Unchained) who wants to really play up the whole vampiric thing while whoopin' ass with our Cleric.

We roll for stats (4d6 drop lowest). The Cleric's stats are 16 11 13 11 17 11. I don't know the Dhampir's, but I rolled 11, 15, 16, 13, 15, 14 (these ones aren't in any particular order).

With this party setup, I was thinking a kind of back-row Arcane caster would be good, possibly a Necromancer. I want to make sure we're a decently well-rounded party, the GM for this one says that WotW can get pretty challenging, especially right here at the beginning, and with the small party size and inexperienced GM I get a little worried that we'll be ready.

So with all of that information available, what I've come up with is a Witch. They're a great back-row caster, Arcane, lots of Utility and Debuffs, and can be a decent Necromancer with the Gravewalker Archetype. I've never played a Witch as a PC or NPC before, so I'm a little unsure if it's really what I'm looking for in this situation.

So what do you think? Is my choice a valid one? What race should I pick? What are some other good options? (We allow any official Paizo material)

Any help is appreciated. Thanks in advance, guys.


With an 18 in your casting stat post-racial, Witch can work nicely. You guys are lacking in the Arcane Spellcaster department, which is basically required for any game you play (after all, the game assumes you have at least one full Arcane Spellcaster in your party). However, no Skill Monkeying or Face characters means you're going to be hardpressed to make good on any clues, information, and so on.

Human for the bonus feat (Extra Hex is always useful) and +2 to Intelligence. Skill Point can be substituted with Darkvision via the Dimdweller racial trait. You'll also have decent sub-stats. Put a 15 into Dexterity and Constitution so you'll have some decent survivability (and ranged competence via touch spells). 14 Wisdom for Will Saves. 13 Charisma for any Charm spells you may want to throw at goodies. 11 Strength because it's there.

Can switch the Charisma and Strength scores around if you think you'd appreciate the carrying capacity more. The increased Strength will also make any Melee Touch effects more likely to hit as well, so there is that to consider.

For Skills, be sure to pick up Perception, Spellcraft, Fly, and Knowledge (Arcana). Craft (Alchemy) doesn't hurt either if you decide to pick up some associated hexes along the way, but after those four subjects, the rest is your volition. You should have 7 Skill Points to play around with (8 if you factor in Favored Class Bonus).

Even a feat for Additional Traits (maybe make it the Human one) so you can pick up some of the Skill Monkeying required (such as Disable Device) or Facing required (such as Diplomacy, which is really big in this campaign).

As for Hexes, you may be able to skirt from the healing hexes, unless your Monk plays stupid or has crap for defenses. (Cleric should have no issue, since he can heal and buff himself.) Evil Eye, Misfortune, all that fun stuff is awesome to take. Slumber is definitely a biggie, especially starting out. (You might want to take it as your first level hex, to be quite honest with you.)

Other than that, should be good to go. Good luck, friend.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Witches are fun. If you go elf, you can also be an archer if needed. Although you'll always have fun hexes to use. I played a half-orc one (non-Scarred Witchdoctor) once, and it was really fun. I played him up like Conan the Barbarian, but with spells and hexes instead of swords and axes.

One thing you might want to ask your GM is to let each PC control an NPC/henchman Warrior. Especially if it is a tough campaign, having those extra bodies on the field will help. Also, you have no Full BAB PCs. It gives it an old school, 1st Edition feel, too.

If your GM DOES allow you to run henchmen warriors, remember to design them so they're really efficient in combat. Lots of static feats (Iron Will, Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus, Skill Focus, Precise Shot, Weapon Finesse, etc.). I ran one that used a heavy crossbow, so every other round, I just reloaded. It was really fun and quick.


Thanks for the feedback guys, these are both great. I have a question, though. After some more looking, I realised I really like the Gravewalker Archetype. I'd focus more on having one big undead than a horde of smaller ones (to keep things speedy, plus I like the flavor). But I'm curious how much losing the familiar is going to hurt me. Would I be better off keeping the familiar and getting the Animate Dead spells later, or losing the familiar and getting the spell sooner?


There is a place in the second book where therethere are a loooooot of skeletons.
My players are worried because they cant Animate them and they'd want to.
So go for Animate Dead and turn them into bloody skeletons. It will be cool.


Ay a Bard to help buff and build him as an archer.


UPDATE: My party's Cleric has decided that he will instead be a Warpriest.

Jeremiah, I think this update really solidifies my choice as a Witch since we need a full caster in the group.

Kileanna, that's good to know.

So I'm curious, other than just being my spellbook and holding wands (with Improved Familiar), what actual benefit would I get by choosing a familiar instead of the Gravewalker's Poppet?


Follow the "Forge of Combat" model. You have a Cleric (arm/hammer) and a Monk (hammer). Your best bet would be to fill the "anvil" role as a full arcane caster. Witch almost seems unnecessary, since you don't need the wizard/druid fusion list the Witch inherits. Rather, you need a bit more arcane "oomph." Play something with access to the Wizard/Sorcerer list. Necromancer's not a bad idea to shore up your ranks a bit (action economy, and all). You could also style yourself as a Diabolist, specializing in Conjuration and summoning fiends. It just depends on if you prefer your minions to give you a little lip ;D

You'll need to provide the ideal circumstances for your party to succeed. The monk wants to full attack, so you need to arrange the field so that they are next to the enemy at the start of their turn. A horde of zombies is great for this, by preventing enemies from sharing their squares ("wall [hall] of horse" logic). You can create walls, disable some foes to take on the hordes piecemeal, make holes or difficult terrain, etc. Here's where a witch would end up with problems. The witch spell list is better at doing utility magic and ending the encounter against mostly single-targets with minds (lipstich, hold person, insanity, Slumber, etc.) The wizard list is better for battlefield control, since they have more spells designed for multiple targets and more spells that offer no saves.


A wizard, eh? I guess that'd work. For a Necromancer, is there any advice you've got? An oft overlooked spell, or a suggested archetype perhaps? (Undead Master looked interesting, but the Corpse Companion is kind of lackluster.)

Thanks again.


Quickstart Necromancer Handbook:

Make sure to have your cleric/warpriest Desecrate an evil alter before you raise the dead. This gives +2hp/hd, which means that your zombies will have 7.5hp/hd.

Only use mindless undead, as you can't ensure control over mindful undead. They'll break free eventually and give you no end of trouble.

Make sure to make Fast Zombies, they're the best option available, even if they take up twice as many HD of your control pool. You need to know haste for this purpose. And also because haste is a bawler 3rd level spell in general.

1 big undead is better than many weaker undead. Humanoids and classed creatures in general make crappy undead. See if you can kill a dragon, they give great combat value for their HD.

The spell Blood Money makes a great substitute for onyx gems, and is on both the witch and wizard spell list.

Finally, remember that necromancery is a downtime pursuit, not a combat role. Far too many of the necromancers I see played at my table like to forget about all the other stuff that their full casters can do, and focus exclusively on the necromancer stuff.

Necromancery is cool and all, but it is at best a side business for your character - a way to have a cheap, disposable meatshield around. Specializing in necromancery does not give much in the way of return.


Tbh I was considering using Necromancy as my combat role, but looking back on it that seems like a bad idea, thanks for pointing it out.

You say that one big undead is better than many small ones. Can you elaborate on that? Previous posters have said that I should use a horde of smaller ones as a form of battlefield control. What's your take on this?

Lastly, what's the general concensus on the Agent of the Grave PrC? Is it good?


Focusing on necromancy can be fun if you don't just stick to creating undead.
A character focused in curses, negative energy, etc. can be interesting too. You could combine that with creating undead.

And if you really wanted to play a Witch it's still not a bad choice either.


Well I'd definitely use a lot of the sickness/fatigue spells, Vampiric Touch, etc. By not focusing on Necromancy, I meant not using most of my slots for animate dead.


I think it could work and it would be fitting for a WotW campaign.


To cover for the face role, make sure you have at least one social ability (hex or spell). Try to convince the cleric to also do a bit of social investment.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

There are some "undead friendly" oracle mysteries and archetypes, too.

Dark Archive

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Don't worry about being the "most effective" choice... if you like the witch archetype, do it. In the end, you'll have more fun playing a character you want to play, than one you have to play.

I'd suggest trying to find a fourth player, but I assume you've already thought of that.


We have only three players at this time and they're doing fine.
Better than when they were 5 with 2 problematic players.


Silbeg, I get that completely. Right now, though, I'm looking for a good option with the concept of "Arcane Caster". So either really fit into it. And while I do really like the witch, the wizard fits for me just as well. Besides, I'm still going to GM every weekend, so I can put forth whatever character I want.

And yeah, we've tried looking for a fourth player, but it's difficult in our small town setting to do so.

Kileanna, that's really good to know.

Malignor, I'd already planned on it.

SmiloDan, I'll make sure look into those, but I'll probably stick with an Arcane caster.

Thanks again guys.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Cool. I mostly suggested the oracle because it gets more skill points and uses Charisma as its casting stat, so that would synergize with being the party face.

But now that I think about it, a 2+Int casting stat is going to have more skills than a 4+ with Cha casting stat. :-P


Orotomo wrote:

Tbh I was considering using Necromancy as my combat role, but looking back on it that seems like a bad idea, thanks for pointing it out.

You say that one big undead is better than many small ones. Can you elaborate on that? Previous posters have said that I should use a horde of smaller ones as a form of battlefield control. What's your take on this?

Lastly, what's the general concensus on the Agent of the Grave PrC? Is it good?

In my experience, when people say "undead horde", they mean humanoid undead. Those are super crappy. In my experience, having a horde of undead slows down the game time a lot, so only having one big minion is a way to avoid that. You also don't have to replace it all the damn time, since they don't die as often, which is nice.

Consider your options. You're a 5th level cleric, let's say.

You have 20HD worth of control, and can raise 20HD in one go if you do it in a desecrated area.

You could have 20 of these(human skeletons):

AC 16, touch 12, flat-footed 14 (+2 armor, +2 Dex, +2 natural)
hp 6 (1d8+2)
Fort +0, Ref +2, Will +2
DR 5/bludgeoning; Immune cold, undead traits
OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft.
Melee broken scimitar +0 (1d6), claw –3 (1d4+1) or 2 claws +2 (1d4+2)
STATISTICS
Str 15, Dex 14, Con —, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 10

10 of these(human zombies):
AC 12, touch 10, flat-footed 12 (+2 natural)
hp 16 (2d8+3+4)
Fort +0, Ref +0, Will +3
DR 5/slashing; Immune undead traits
Spd 30 ft.
Melee slam +4 (1d6+4)
Str 17, Dex 10, Con —, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +1; CMB +4; CMD 14
Feats ToughnessB
Special Qualities staggered

Or one of these(Fast Zombie Water Naga):
AC 19, touch 17, FF 12 (-1 size, +3 natural, +7 dex)
Hp 75(10d8+8+16)
Fort +3, Ref +10, Will +7
Immune undead traits
40ft. Swim 50ft.
Bite +12 2d6+6, 2 slams +12 2d6+6 and tail slap +7 1d8+3
Str 22, Dex 25, Con -, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk; +7, CMB +14, CMD 31(can't be tripped)

Which could easily rip apart both zombie hordes above all on its own. There *is* something to be said for battlefield control by filling the board with undead, but generally speaking they'll be too weak to really matter. And the GM gets annoyed when you take too long managing your zombie horde.

Agent of the Grave is all right. It's tied to the Whispering Way organization, fluffwise, so it's a little ustalav specific, but it can work. It's about as good as normal nonprestige spellcaster levels. Maybe a little weaker, depending on how good your charisma is.

All in all a pretty solid prc. You won't hurt yourself much by taking it.


with only 3 people ask if you can gestault and if you can gestault i would suggest going sorc(pcycic bloodline) and juju oracle(they get a revilation that gives them 6 hd per level of undead controlling) that way you can wear fullplate and still cast spells and eventually become a graveknight wich adds 5 more hd per level of undead controlling for a total of 11 hit die per level you can then have most of your sorcerer spells be aoe buff spells and go to town on anything and everything

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Give the skeletons some unbroken weapons and some unbroken armor, and they might a bit more of a threat. Maybe morningstars, scale mail, and heavy wooden shields? AC 20, +2 to hit for 1d8+2. Probably +4 from (usually) flanking, maybe some more +2s from Aid Anothers?

But running hordes of minions takes WAY too long. Maybe allowable with a party of 3, but with 4 or more PCs, it's going to eat up WAY too much time.


SmiloDan wrote:

Give the skeletons some unbroken weapons and some unbroken armor, and they might a bit more of a threat. Maybe morningstars, scale mail, and heavy wooden shields? AC 20, +2 to hit for 1d8+2. Probably +4 from (usually) flanking, maybe some more +2s from Aid Anothers?

But running hordes of minions takes WAY too long. Maybe allowable with a party of 3, but with 4 or more PCs, it's going to eat up WAY too much time.

Flanking and aids would be a bit more advanced tactics than I'd personally allow for mindless undead, but GMs will vary widely on this point.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Ierox wrote:
SmiloDan wrote:

Give the skeletons some unbroken weapons and some unbroken armor, and they might a bit more of a threat. Maybe morningstars, scale mail, and heavy wooden shields? AC 20, +2 to hit for 1d8+2. Probably +4 from (usually) flanking, maybe some more +2s from Aid Anothers?

But running hordes of minions takes WAY too long. Maybe allowable with a party of 3, but with 4 or more PCs, it's going to eat up WAY too much time.

Flanking and aids would be a bit more advanced tactics than I'd personally allow for mindless undead, but GMs will vary widely on this point.

Flanking might happen by crazyrandomhappenstance, but can a necromancer command his mindless undead to Aid Another?

There should be a necromancer PrC that lets you grant bonus Teamwork Feats to your undead minions.


Remember we are talking about WotW. Having hordes of weak minions is not so bad because of the specifics of the second book.
In other parts of the story he'd probably have to go for a different strategy, but it works there and it's really cool.


If you want hordes, I'm partial to simulacra. Get a couple of simulacum succubi - they can shapeshift, buff, be the party face, do long-range telepathy, and cast high-DC enchantment - and then use those fully loyal enchanter minions to keep a handle on your super cheap lesser simulacrum mooks. Plus - fully loyal succubi minions, I shouldn't need to say anything more.

Or buy a clonepod for 60k! Granted, your DM will almost certainly not be ok with it. But it would let you churn out really beefy corpses to animate as often as you wanted.

On the henchmen front you definitely want Mysterious Stranger gunslingers. It's a super front-loaded archetype and they target touch, so they'll be able to consistently damage way higher-CR enemies. Makes no sense thematically though.

The last option is leshies I guess - which basically means being a ghoran. A bunch of flytrap leshies in their super-Voltron form can be terrifying, and if you make a lotus leshy with high HD and give it a Con boosting item it'll be throwing around high-DC sleep attacks all day long. WotW is pretty jam-packed with sleep-immune stuff though.


Now, I was taking steps to avoid the large amount of time to run the horde, but lerox makes a very good point. That large undead seems very attractive.

Paddywagon man, how would a simulacra character work? Any good spells (besides simulacrum)? What would I be doing for the first levels?


At the risk of pushing you in a different direction, have you considered Arcanist?

Requires a broader set of stats than a Wizard, but you've got a good spread for that. A little less flexibility than a wizard in terms of spell prep, but I think the exploits make up for it (Potent Magic allows for some pretty sweet spell DCs, Dimensional Slide is nice for mobility, School Understanding can give some nice perks, etc etc).

Overall, its arguably less effective for a Necromancer who raises undead, but for a caster using battlefield control spells, debuffs, etc., I think it could be a great fit.


On the simulacrum character topic, you really have two options. The first is alchemist, the second is Samsaran wizard.

If you go the alchemist route, it's as simple as taking the alchemical simulacrum discovery at level 8 and then the greater version at level 13. Besides that, you can pretty much be whatever sort of alchemist you want to be. Avoid the clone master archetype - it's supposed to specialize in simulacra but really doesn't give you anything the discoveries don't.

The advantage to alchemist is that alchemical simulacra only cost 20% as much to create, and count as creatures rather than spell effects.

If you go the wizard route, use your Samsaran racial ability to take from the summoner spell list. This gives you the simulacrum spell as a 5th level spell, allowing you to make full simulacra as early as level 9. These are the more expensive spell effect simulacra though.

Either way, making a simulacrum character requires very little investment and can generally be done alongside other character builds. I certainly recommend making a succubus simulacrum as your first priority, the utility provided by one is incredible.


Two things. First be prepared for the party to do some really nasty disturbing things. Playing evil is extremely fun and players tend to go to extremes when playing this alignment. Have ran two evil campaigns both gave me a headache because all the stuff the party did I never expected. Expect a Lot of dead NPCs. Now a module series might curb some of that but just a word of warning.
Second you are both GM and a player if I read it right. Being a GM is challenging enough and then playing a character adds to that. Again not saying don't but it does add complexity to the game. My advice is play a simple one say a Rogue or straight fighter or a class you know so well it's second nature. Me I can GM and play either a Rogue or Cleric or Oracle without it causing any problems. I know the spells well enough I don't have to think about it when combat happens.
One other thing. I have seen GM's tend to favor their PCs over other players when running campaigns both modules and homebrew. Not saying you will just something I have seen and noticed.


Derek Dalton wrote:

Two things. First be prepared for the party to do some really nasty disturbing things. Playing evil is extremely fun and players tend to go to extremes when playing this alignment. Have ran two evil campaigns both gave me a headache because all the stuff the party did I never expected. Expect a Lot of dead NPCs. Now a module series might curb some of that but just a word of warning.

Second you are both GM and a player if I read it right. Being a GM is challenging enough and then playing a character adds to that. Again not saying don't but it does add complexity to the game. My advice is play a simple one say a Rogue or straight fighter or a class you know so well it's second nature. Me I can GM and play either a Rogue or Cleric or Oracle without it causing any problems. I know the spells well enough I don't have to think about it when combat happens.
One other thing. I have seen GM's tend to favor their PCs over other players when running campaigns both modules and homebrew. Not saying you will just something I have seen and noticed.

hes not the gm he normally is but one of his players asked if they could take a crack at gming

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