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OK,
Back in the day, in the original 1st edition DMG, Gary Gygax gave us a reading list to help new players get inspired. Seems like games no longer do this, which is a shame. There are some good reading suggestions in there.
That list was a good list, but it's very fantasy oriented. It was for a fantasy RPG after all. But with Starfinder coming out soon, we need a sci-fi list.
So here's what I'd like to do -- I want to create an Appendix N Reading List for Starfinder. I'd like you to comment on this discussion with those sci-fi books that inspire you for roleplaying.
I"ve posted the same question the RPGGeek webpage on my blog. I'll try to get this list built and put it somewhere to share.
Here's a few to get you started.
Isaac Asimov (2001 A Space Oddysey)
Ray Bradbury (Martian Chronicles)
Larry Niven (Man-Kzin Wars, Ringworld)
HG Wells (The War of the Worlds)
Douglas Adams (Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy)
Jules Verne (From the Earth to the Moon and Round the Moon)
Edgar Rice Burroughs (Mars Series, Venus Series)
Jack Campbell (the Lost Fleet series)
Jack McDevitt (Alex Benedict series)
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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OK,
Isaac Asimov (2001 A Space Oddysey)
Actually, 2001 was by Arthur C Clarke.
Asimov wrote a huge amount of amazing sci-fi, but not that one. Many of his most well known stories aren't a great fit for Starfinder inspiration, as they're about robots and the three laws of robotics, and don't have a lot of spacefaring and other planets. However, his Foundation series has a much more epic scope, though completely isn't space opera.
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OK,
Isaac Asimov (2001 A Space Oddysey)Actually, 2001 was by Arthur C Clarke.
Asimov wrote a huge amount of amazing sci-fi, but not that one. Many of his most well known stories aren't a great fit for Starfinder inspiration, as they're about robots and the three laws of robotics, and don't have a lot of spacefaring and other planets. However, his Foundation series has a much more epic scope, though completely isn't space opera.
Dang. Good catch. Not a great start. But Clarke should probably be on the list.
Back in the day, in the original 1st edition DMG, Gary Gygax gave us a reading list to help new players get inspired. Seems like games no longer do this, which is a shame.
Pathfinder Core Rulebook has it actually, at appendix 3, page 568 to 569:
Barker, Clive: The Hellbound Heart, Imagica, Weaveworld
Beowulf (anonymous)
Blackwood, Algernon: “The Willows,” “The Wendigo,” et al.
(...)
Wells, H. G.: The Time Machine, et al.
Wellman, Manly Wade: John the Balladeer series, et al.
Zelazny, Roger: Amber series, et al.
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I do hope Starfinder has one and I'm very curious to see what's on it. There was an earlier discussion of this soon after the original announcement of Starfinder and while there was certainly some interesting stuff mentioned, a lot of it was far more straight science fiction than I expect Starfinder to be. (Noticed halfway through that abbreviated both "science fiction" and "Starfinder" as "SF" would probably be confusing.)
I'm very interested in what they were thinking when working on it, since I think this kind of mix of fantasy and science fiction is pretty rare.
Like JohannVonUlm's list to start us off is mostly far more straight science fiction than I'd expect to go well with Starfinder.
Star Wars is the big example that fits, of course.
Edit: I'm also sad that the Pathfinder CRB didn't have that as Appendix N. Even if it had to go: Appendix 2, Appendix N, Appendix 4.
Hopefully Starfinder will remedy this failure.
I believe you're probably right. Starfinder looks to have a lot more fantasy element mixed with the sci-fi.
Jack Campbell's Lost Fleet series, as classic space opera - space ship combat may not be the perfect match for RPG / Starfinder inspiration.
But McDevitt's Deep Six (which I'm reading now) is reading like a classic RPG adventure. A survey team that finds themselves stranded on a dying planet - struggling to find an escape.
I'd love to see a list chock full of good RPG inspiration.
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The Guardians of the Galaxy comics, especially the Dan Abnett run...
SAGA by Brian K. Vaughan is another stellar (hue hue hue) Space Fantasy comic series. (note that it's very adult-oriented in some of its themes and artwork)
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The Terro-Human Future History stories by H. Beam Piper;
the Alliance-Union stories by C. J. Cherryh;
the Hainish Cycle stories by Ursula K. Le Guin;
more obvious:
Dune by Frank Herbert.
Some more Appendix N reading suggestions can be found here.
The Princess of Mars - Edgar Rice Burroughs
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Some more Appendix N reading suggestions can be found here.
Good find. Thanks. So someone thought about doing this a year ago. I'll have to start looking through that list.
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WH40K novels
I'm hesitant to put serialized game fiction as a whole on the list. It's always such a mixed bag. Some can be quite good (Dan Abnett's Gaunt's Ghosts series, for example. And I'm particularly fond of Sandy Mitchell's Ciaphas Cain series). But often times you can practically read the game mechanics in the writing. With serialized RPG fiction, in particular, the bad ones come off like I'm reading about the author's favorite D&D character.
Arguably some parts of Star Trek, though that's harder due to the lack of protagonists with powers.
This is an interesting suggestion. Two thoughts:
- Star Trek did have some antagonists with powers (think Q and Tregaine) and some protagonists with powers (Deanna Troi's empathic powers, Spock's Vulcan powers, Odo's shapeshifting). But definitely lower level "powers" than we're likely to see in Starfinder.
- But also, do things like TV, movies, anime or comic books/graphic novels belong in a reading list? Clearly Star Wars and Star Trek have a massive influence on how we view science fiction today. And the movie/TV show are the source of the influence. Their serialized fiction is a derivative from that influence.
For me, the first goal was a reading list. But the point was to inspire myself with that reading for the Starfinder game release.
Do those other sources have some place on that list. Should we have a second (or several) category on that list?
Sort of surprised I don't see any mention of Honor Harrington or spinoffs from that.
The various Miles Vorkosigan books are another omission.
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Dragonstar RPG line. :)
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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I've used bits of Star Trek and Doctor Who for inspiration in standard Pathfinder, so using them as a source of inspiration for Starfinder shouldn't be hard at all. In addition to a myriad of aliens and villains to grab and re-purpose, the fact that both shows are very episodic in nature means taking plots from them is also easy to use for inspiration.
I'd be shocked if in the first year after launch someone doesn't have an adventure featuring a derelict spaceship with dead crew in odd situations, and then have the PCs deal with the space virus that makes them and their crew act on their uninhibited desires, a la the Naked Time episode of Star Trek.
Some more Appendix N reading suggestions can be found here.Good find. Thanks. So someone thought about doing this a year ago. I'll have to start looking through that list.
Good thing is that I left it open for editing if you want to add more stuff to it.
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Good thing is that I left it open for editing if you want to add more stuff to it.Some more Appendix N reading suggestions can be found here.Good find. Thanks. So someone thought about doing this a year ago. I'll have to start looking through that list.
I spent a fair amount of time dissecting that list. And the more I think about it, I go back to my original question / challenge. I want a reading list. Frankly, if I asked you to recommend a good sci-fi book and you told me to watch Star Trek or Star Wars, I'd be pretty disappointed. So let's leave that list for what it is - a multi-media sci-fi list. I'll work on a reading list that omits the video games, movies, TV, anime and cartoons on that list.
The real challenge for me now is -- with a proper reading list, do I count manga or graphic novels? I know there are some good ones out there. But I'm not sure how to evaluate them compared to the more classic sci-fi novel.
If we are going multi-media you really need to include Cowboy Beebop, Trinity Blood and Tri-Gun in the list.
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The Guardians of the Galaxy comics, especially the Dan Abnett run...SAGA by Brian K. Vaughan is another stellar (hue hue hue) Space Fantasy comic series. (note that it's very adult-oriented in some of its themes and artwork)
I couldn't stand that series. I certainly didn't spend an entire weekend reading the first three collections after I happened to stumble across them, and I haven't been experiencing withdrawal symptoms during the hiatus between issues 42 and 43.
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OK. I've done a first draft of my reading list. As a reminder, I'm trying to build a reading list. Not a list of movies, TV shows, etc. If you're interested, this link should work:
Go to Appendix N
OK. I've done a first draft of my reading list. As a reminder, I'm trying to build a reading list. Not a list of movies, TV shows, etc. If you're interested, this link should work:
Go to Appendix N
No mention of Issac Asimov's The Gods Themselves?
Arthur C. Clarke: The Rama Series
It's more of a first-contact story so maybe not super relevant for an RPG, but nevertheless I think it's a really great piece of SF.
I think you really need to differentiate between a Science Fiction reading list and a Science Fantasy reading list. Quite a few authors on that list, whist well worth reading, are far too po-faced for Starfinder inspiration (it's very similar to the list in the first edition Traveller manuals). And for Science Fantasy it should really have "anything by Dan Abnett" right at the top.
Arthur C Clarke and spell casting rat people really don't belng together.
If you are adding Dan Abnett, you are not really adding literature, your adding another game system that happens to have fictional books written in it.
Robert Heinlein's Starship Troopers wasn't mentioned either. Although Ender's Game is too hard a science to be mentioned. One, very important game book should be mentioned until Starfinder's Gamemastery is announced.
4th Edition GURPS: Space. Although I recommend LUG's Star Trek: TNG RPG for random star system generation. GURPS: Space makes it harder.
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I think you really need to differentiate between a Science Fiction reading list and a Science Fantasy reading list. Quite a few authors on that list, whist well worth reading, are far too po-faced for Starfinder inspiration (it's very similar to the list in the first edition Traveller manuals). And for Science Fantasy it should really have "anything by Dan Abnett" right at the top.
Arthur C Clarke and spell casting rat people really don't belng together.
Been offline for the last day or so. I read this yesterday and I'm not sure I agree. Tried to get a good definition on differentiating science fiction and science fantasy. Try here
The main thing that caught my attention is that the debate over the terms was primarily between 1950 and 1966. To me it's clear the industry did not adopt the term or care about the difference.
Check your local bookstore. They group Fantasy and Science Fiction together most often. Amazon does the same.
The Science Fiction and Fantasy Hall of Fame doesn't categorize that way.
The Science Fiction and Fantasy Writer's Association doesn't split hairs that way either.
Lastly, it seems that Clarke, himself, wasn't overly concerned:
"There are purists who say that Star Trek isn't science fiction, but science fantasy -- and they have a point. Genuine science fiction should describe things that could happen according to present knowledge, and today we are fairly certain that we won't be able to dash from one star system to another in time for the next week's episode. We can also be sure that the inhabitants of other worlds won't look anything like human beings -- or speak fluent American."
"But we have to remember that much that once seemed fantasy has now become fact. Seventy years ago, if anyone had written a story in which a whole city was destroyed by banging two small pieces of metal together, virtually all physicists would have said: "Utter nonsense!" Yet this is how the greatest of wars was ended in 1945. Today there are many other examples of my Third Law: ‘Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic’"
So I'm not inclined to exclude Clarke simply because he doesn't fit a fantasy mold.
I have thoroughly enjoyed Abnett's work. I just struggle to select that one example to cite.
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No mention of Issac Asimov's The Gods Themselves?OK. I've done a first draft of my reading list. As a reminder, I'm trying to build a reading list. Not a list of movies, TV shows, etc. If you're interested, this link should work:
Go to Appendix N
In making the list, I tried to be inclusive as possible and limited myself to citing a single work in most cased. My goal is to get the list to 100 items. The idea being that you could score yourself on a 1 to 100 list.
Martin Rayla did that for the original Appendix N. Check out his website here
I currently score only a 32. I'm working on that.
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Starfinder doesn't lend itself to "great" SF, "pulp" SF is more relevant. Rama would make a very dull, slow moving adventure.
If you are adding Dan Abnett, you are not really adding literature, your adding another game system that happens to have fictional books written in it.
I think I see both your points. It's why I mentioned that I struggle with picking something from Abnett. That said, let's differentiate first.
"Pulp" derives from the early science fiction publications and the quality of the paper and the science fiction. There were gems in that early work. Most of Edgar Rice Burroughs works qualify under this term.
I think what you both are really referring to is the serialized game world (or TV based or movie based) fiction. I find those to be a mixed bag similar to the early era "pulp". Some gems (early Salvatore Drizzt; Abnett Gaunt's Ghosts). But these are constrained in their story telling in a way that early "pulp" wasn't. They're constrained by the boundaries of the world they're contained in --- which was created by someone else. The author is telling stories in someone else's sandbox. I tend to discount these books as a result.
So with someone like James Blish, I tried to find original work, not one of his Star Trek scripts or novels.
The problem with Abnett is his best "original" work may be in comic books. Which I'm not sure I want to put on this list for reasons I mentioned earlier.
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For an addition to the Starfinder list, I'd propose Roger Zelazny's Lord of Light and Creatures of Light and Darkness. Both play around with mixing SF and fantasy in interesting and different way. One involving a colony world where the crew of the colony ship have developed psychic powers and set themselves up as Hindu gods. The other involves Egyptian gods who've survived into an interstellar civilization.
Zelazny is on the list. I chose The Immortal, a Hugo award winner. But Lord of Light was also a Hugo award winner. I could certainly flip them out if you think it's more appropriate. I haven't read either so just picked an award winner.
I'm also thinking of changing the list slightly, so I can list multiple titles for some authors.
I read this yesterday and I'm not sure I agree. Tried to get a good definition on differentiating science fiction and science fantasy. Try here
The main thing that caught my attention is that the debate over the terms was primarily between 1950 and 1966. To me it's clear the industry did not adopt the term or care about the difference.
Check your local bookstore. They group Fantasy and Science Fiction together most often. Amazon does the same.
The bookstores just want a category that people can look under. They don't care what the category is, just that their customers can find the type of books they are looking for. There is a fairly large overlap in readership.
The Science Fiction and Fantasy Hall of Fame doesn't categorize that way.
The Science Fiction and Fantasy Writer's Association doesn't split hairs that way either.
If you are looking for a better term, there is Speculative Fiction. It is my opinion that most people just don't care for whatever reason.
In terms of science fiction, I've heard the terms "hard" vs. "soft" used to indicate how close the science is. Even then, it can be difficult since the use that society puts a scientific advancement can be quite a bit different than expected. I don't think anyone in the 50s really expected computers to be turned into video game consoles.
I suspect in the case of Starfinder, they are more concerned with how interesting a campaign it will be than how closely it holds to our current scientific understanding. I do think it will be interesting to find out how they have technology and magic interact.
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I have a pretty big science-fantasy reading list. Everything I thought of before now I offered for any reading list Starfinder might include, but I *think* I missed these few, so I'll offer them up here.
Debra Doyle and James D. Macdonald, Mageworlds series
Eric Flint and David Drake, Belisarius series
Peter F. Hamilton. The Void Trilogy
John Varley, The Gaea Trilogy (Titan, Wizard, Demon)
John Varley,Mammoth
David Weber and Linda Evans, Multiverse Series
Roger Zelazny, Creatures of Light and Darkness
Roger Zelazny, Eye of Cat had Native American Gods in a far-future setting.
Roger Zelazny, Jack of Shadows
Roger Zelazny, Lord of Light
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Stuff
While quite a bit of science fiction doesn't have "literal" space elves, plenty of fictional settings have races that might as well be space elves. The Minbari from B5, the Vulcans/Romulans from Star Trek, and the Tymbrini (sp?) from the Uplift novels by David Brin are just a few examples off the top of my head. Same thing with magic; people might give it a fancy name like psionics, but that is just reflavoring.
I'm not saying you're wrong Jawa, but that just mean that there's no point in differentiating between soft sci-fi and science fantasy. Before you ask, yes, George Lucas bothered me to no end when he started talking about about science fantasy and space fantasy instead of just using the genre name "space opera" like everyone had for decades at that point.
I've got no problem with posting works we suppose might inspire us to play Starfinder, but assembling an Appendix N for a RPG that hasn't been published yet is ambitious to say the least.
That said, Metropolitan by Walter Jon Williams deserves a mention.
Since there's supposedly (basically all but confirmed) this huge antagonistic race called the swarm that is in the Starfinder universe, I'd like to call to mention the Starcraft books. Despite some of them being lower-than-average quality, they do help put the Zerg into a bit more perspective, and 90% of all these swarm races (Zerg, Tyranids Collectors, etc) are born from the same idea.
Dan Abnett has written all sorts, not just for "another game system". Reciently I have read "Rocket and Groot steel the Universe" full text novel and "The Silent Stars Go By", an original Doctor Who novel, both of which are a) awesome and b) ideal for adapting to Starfinder.If you are adding Dan Abnett, you are not really adding literature, your adding another game system that happens to have fictional books written in it.I think you really need to differentiate between a Science Fiction reading list and a Science Fantasy reading list. Quite a few authors on that list, whist well worth reading, are far too po-faced for Starfinder inspiration (it's very similar to the list in the first edition Traveller manuals). And for Science Fantasy it should really have "anything by Dan Abnett" right at the top.
Arthur C Clarke and spell casting rat people really don't belng together.
So he has written stories set in...other developed properties
Dan Abnett still wouldn't be the example of reading there, it would be Dr Who in general (which often very much has a major fantasy component) and the cosmic side of Marvel comics (which also includes quite a bit of magic mixed in with future tech).