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I'm aware of the various interactions of spell resistance and physical/energy kinetic blasts. But in my game, a particular spell raised its head: Spell Immunity.
The question is: Can Kinetic Blast be selected as a spell blocked by a casting of Spell Immunity? Would a specific type of blast (fire, electric, force) have to be called out? Obviously, the physical types would be not selected, as they don't allow SR and Spell Immunity simply grants "unbeatable SR".
Or, flipside, is Kinetic Blast simply off the radar as far as Spell Immunity is concerned? There is language to support that interpretation as well.
My group already has some ideas, but we always like to poll the forums before making final decisions.
Kinetic Blast is not a spell.
Kinetic blast is not a spell nor mimics a spell. If it was an SLA that was identical to a spell then it could be argued that it would work but it is not so it wont.
From the PRD, Spell Immunity:
The warded creature is immune to the effects of one specified spell for every four levels you have. The spells must be of 4th level or lower. The warded creature effectively has unbeatable spell resistance regarding the specified spell or spells. Naturally, that immunity doesn't protect a creature from spells for which spell resistance doesn't apply. Spell immunity protects against spells, spell-like effects of magic items, and innate spell-like abilities of creatures. It does not protect against supernatural or extraordinary abilities, such as breath weapons or gaze attacks.
Also from the PRD, Kinetic Blast:
Kinetic Blast (Sp): At 1st level, a kineticist gains a kinetic blast wild talent of her choice. This kinetic blast must be a simple blast that matches her element. As a standard action, the kineticist can unleash a kinetic blast at a single target up to a range of 30 feet. She must have at least one hand free to aim the blast (or one prehensile appendage, if she doesn't have hands). All damage from a kinetic blast is treated as magic for the purpose of bypassing damage reduction. Kinetic blasts count as a type of weapon for the purpose of feats such as Weapon Focus. The kineticist is never considered to be wielding or gripping the kinetic blast (regardless of effects from form infusions), and she can't use Vital Strike feats with kinetic blasts. Even the weakest kinetic blast involves a sizable mass of elemental matter or energy, so kinetic blasts always deal full damage to swarms of any size (though only area blasts deal extra damage to swarms). A readied kinetic blast can be used to counterspell any spell of equal or lower level that shares its descriptor. A kinetic blast that deals energy damage of any type (including force) has the corresponding descriptor.
A strict reading says that kinetic blast is a spell-like ability. Spell immunity can stop spell-like abilities from working. Therefore, spell immunity can be tuned to counter kinetic blast. But does kinetic blast find itself subject to spell resistance? If the answer is no, then spell immunity does nothing. If the answer is yes, then spell immunity works. Kinetic blast is that rare bird, a spell-like ability that doesn't directly duplicate a known spell.
From the PRD, Spell Immunity:
The warded creature is immune to the effects of one specified spell for every four levels you have. The spells must be of 4th level or lower. The warded creature effectively has unbeatable spell resistance regarding the specified spell or spells. Naturally, that immunity doesn't protect a creature from spells for which spell resistance doesn't apply. Spell immunity protects against spells, spell-like effects of magic items, and innate spell-like abilities of creatures. It does not protect against supernatural or extraordinary abilities, such as breath weapons or gaze attacks.
Also from the PRD, Kinetic Blast:
Kinetic Blast (Sp): At 1st level, a kineticist gains a kinetic blast wild talent of her choice. This kinetic blast must be a simple blast that matches her element. As a standard action, the kineticist can unleash a kinetic blast at a single target up to a range of 30 feet. She must have at least one hand free to aim the blast (or one prehensile appendage, if she doesn't have hands). All damage from a kinetic blast is treated as magic for the purpose of bypassing damage reduction. Kinetic blasts count as a type of weapon for the purpose of feats such as Weapon Focus. The kineticist is never considered to be wielding or gripping the kinetic blast (regardless of effects from form infusions), and she can't use Vital Strike feats with kinetic blasts. Even the weakest kinetic blast involves a sizable mass of elemental matter or energy, so kinetic blasts always deal full damage to swarms of any size (though only area blasts deal extra damage to swarms). A readied kinetic blast can be used to counterspell any spell of equal or lower level that shares its descriptor. A kinetic blast that deals energy damage of any type (including force) has the corresponding descriptor.
A strict reading says that kinetic blast is a spell-like ability. Spell immunity can stop spell-like abilities from working. Therefore, spell immunity can be tuned to counter kinetic blast....
The warded creature is immune to the effects of one specified spell for every four levels you have.
The line you emphasized is, I believe, referring to spell-like abilities that duplicate existing spells. For example; if you picked Magic Missile, it would protect you against a sorcerer/wizard casting a spell, a rogue using major magic, or a Cloak of the Hedge Wizard that can shoot Magic Missiles.
HH, I quoted the text. I emphasized it for further discussion. Since this is a rules question, I emphasized a rule. Your version is an interpretation that might be valid or not, more under RAI than RAW. Nowhere in the spell text does it comment that it only works on SLAs that specifically duplicate spells. There are other SLAs that do not specifically duplicate spells (look at domains and bloodlines to find examples). So to me, the question still stands as: If kinetic blast is affected by SR, then spell immunity can stop it, if not, it works. Note however the existing FAQ regarding the effective spell level of SLAs that do not duplicate known spells.
Note however the existing FAQ regarding the effective spell level of SLAs that do not duplicate known spells.
Link or quote please?
The onus is on you to provide us with the supporting information to your claims, and not all of us interested in the topic have the time to go slogging through a dozen FAQs to find out if you were being truthful or not.
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HH, I quoted the text. I emphasized it for further discussion. Since this is a rules question, I emphasized a rule. Your version is an interpretation that might be valid or not, more under RAI than RAW. Nowhere in the spell text does it comment that it only works on SLAs that specifically duplicate spells. There are other SLAs that do not specifically duplicate spells (look at domains and bloodlines to find examples). So to me, the question still stands as: If kinetic blast is affected by SR, then spell immunity can stop it, if not, it works. Note however the existing FAQ regarding the effective spell level of SLAs that do not duplicate known spells.
From a strictly RAW point of view, the text you quoted starts by
The warded creature is immune to the effects of one specified spell for every four levels you have.
However, kinetic blast is not a spell, so you cannot specify it with spell immunity. If you were able to specify it, I agree it would work since it's a SLA and those are called for.
Effectively, this rules out spell immunity against SLA that do not duplicate spells.
Note however the existing FAQ regarding the effective spell level of SLAs that do not duplicate known spells.Link or quote please?
The onus is on you to provide us with the supporting information to your claims, and not all of us interested in the topic have the time to go slogging through a dozen FAQs to find out if you were being truthful or not.
Of course. Sorry about that. Though Alderic quoted the rule for kineticists and I only refer to the FAQ from the CR:
Alderic's comment is the more relevant one. I'll quote the important part from the PRD here:
Wild Talents: A kineticist can use wild talents—magical abilities similar to spells but drawn from the kineticist's innate psychic talent and usable at will...(abbreviated for brevity's sake)
Every wild talent has an effective spell level. (Another abbreviation). Kinetic blast and defense wild talents are always considered to have an effective spell level equal to 1/2 the kineticist's class level (to a maximum effective spell level of 9th at kineticist level 18th).
Then further into the class description, I see this:
Simple Blasts
A kineticist gains a simple blast from her primary element at 1st level—some elements offer more than one option. When a kineticist gains a new element via the expanded element class feature, she gains a simple blast from that element as well. Each simple blast is either a physical blast or an energy blast. Physical blasts are ranged attacks that deal an amount of damage equal to 1d6+1 + the kineticist's Constitution modifier, increasing by 1d6+1 for every 2 kineticist levels beyond 1st. Spell resistance doesn't apply against physical blasts. Energy blasts are ranged touch attacks that deal an amount of damage equal to 1d6 + 1/2 the kineticist's Constitution modifier, increasing by 1d6 for every 2 kineticist levels beyond 1st.
I believe that physical blasts can bypass spell immunity based on the bolded text. Energy blasts? I don't know. Composite blasts? No idea.
Physical blasts bypass it, and energy blasts don't (if the GM decides to focus on the bit about protecting against innate SLAs and not the bit about needing to specify a spell). Generally, the spell level of energy blasts will be high enough to override Spell Immunity and similar effects. Composite blasts are classified as energy or physical, and are almost always physical, even if half is energy damage.
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I do think Spell Immunity is only supposed to protect you from specific spells, and just allows you to additionally be immune to any spell-like abilities that happen to replicate that specific spell, so it does not work against spell-like abilities that don't replicate spells.
Additionally, if it did, the line about having "effectively unbeatable spell resistance" doesn't help against physical blasts, which explicitly ignore said spell resistance.
And finally, kinetic blasts from a kineticist of 10th level or higher are higher than 4th level, and thus not subject to spell immunity.
In general, I don't think it's going to work.
In my case, I see both points. Obviously, the text for physical blasts trumps spell immunity. I thought some number of years ago someone had asked a similar question regarding either clerical domain powers or sorcerer bloodline powers, but I couldn't find it. I think by posting a lot of the relevant text that will help this along however.
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I do think Spell Immunity is only supposed to protect you from specific spells, and just allows you to additionally be immune to any spell-like abilities that happen to replicate that specific spell, so it does not work against spell-like abilities that don't replicate spells.
RAW, it's clear it's not going to work as kinetic blast is not a spell and thus cannot be made the target of spell immunity.
Also, even ignoring that, as a GM I would tread very carefully in allowing spell immunity to work against kinetic blast. This spell is meant to block a single spell from working, but kinetic blast is much more essential to the class than any single spell.
If you give a way to block it, it will likely mean said kineticist has very little to do in combat, which can be very frustrating.
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HH, I quoted the text. I emphasized it for further discussion. Since this is a rules question, I emphasized a rule.
As did I.
Your version is an interpretation that might be valid or not, more under RAI than RAW.
As is yours.
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I see no reason a caster could not cast spell immunity against kinetic energy blasts. I would probably require a spell craft check to recognize what was going on, but then I'd totally allow it, and I think I could make a decent defense of that ruling if I was pressed. In fact, I would allow one casting to protect against all energy forms (unless you're going to allow an admixture specialist to bypass SI:fireball by making it do acid damage).
I would also caution GM's against using this tactic. There is no save for the kineticist, and you've essentially just removed him from combat altogether for the duration. (Which is when my kineticist starts using utility talents or that bow I carry around, but still.)
That's my opinion, of course, but I think the inclusion of spell like effects on the rules text gives me a good basis for it.
I think at the very least, spell immunity would have to be called against specific kinetic blasts (not "Kinetic Blast" but "Cold Blast" or "Electric Blast") by analogy to how you can invoke Spell Immunity against "Fireball" or "Cone of Cold" not "Spells".
However, since "Spell Immunity" stops working against 10th+ level Kineticists, whereas immunity to "cold" or "electricity" has no such expiration, this doesn't seem to be the best tactic.
HH, I quoted the text. I emphasized it for further discussion. Since this is a rules question, I emphasized a rule.As did I.
Your version is an interpretation that might be valid or not, more under RAI than RAW.As is yours.
I agree, in the spirit of discussion I salute you!
From the PRD, Spell Immunity:
The warded creature is immune to the effects of one specified spell for every four levels you have. The spells must be of 4th level or lower. The warded creature effectively has unbeatable spell resistance regarding the specified spell or spells. Naturally, that immunity doesn't protect a creature from spells for which spell resistance doesn't apply. Spell immunity protects against spells, spell-like effects of magic items, and innate spell-like abilities of creatures. It does not protect against supernatural or extraordinary abilities, such as breath weapons or gaze attacks.
Also from the PRD, Kinetic Blast:
Kinetic Blast (Sp): At 1st level, a kineticist gains a kinetic blast wild talent of her choice. This kinetic blast must be a simple blast that matches her element. As a standard action, the kineticist can unleash a kinetic blast at a single target up to a range of 30 feet. She must have at least one hand free to aim the blast (or one prehensile appendage, if she doesn't have hands). All damage from a kinetic blast is treated as magic for the purpose of bypassing damage reduction. Kinetic blasts count as a type of weapon for the purpose of feats such as Weapon Focus. The kineticist is never considered to be wielding or gripping the kinetic blast (regardless of effects from form infusions), and she can't use Vital Strike feats with kinetic blasts. Even the weakest kinetic blast involves a sizable mass of elemental matter or energy, so kinetic blasts always deal full damage to swarms of any size (though only area blasts deal extra damage to swarms). A readied kinetic blast can be used to counterspell any spell of equal or lower level that shares its descriptor. A kinetic blast that deals energy damage of any type (including force) has the corresponding descriptor.
A strict reading says that kinetic blast is a spell-like ability. Spell immunity can stop spell-like abilities from working. Therefore, spell immunity can be tuned to counter kinetic blast....
I agree with you for the most part. However, I also believe that the statement " the spell must be 4th level or lower," should also be taken into account. Kinetic blasts do have a level attached to them so reasonably if the kineticist can use 5th level or higher blasts I believe it should go through. Granted this is a bit RAI since it says spell not spell-like ability in the quoted statement, so take it as you may. I am not your GM.
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Horribly late to this party but I'm going to commemt anways
Spell immunity protects against spells, spell-like effects of magic items, and innate spell-like abilities of creatures. It does not protect against supernatural or extraordinary abilities, such as breath weapons or gaze attacks.
As Lathira highlighted is all the text you need. A kinetic blast is not a SLA innate to a creature but a class feature. No creature automatically gets kinetic blast as a SLA, vanilla or otherwise. Therefore spell immunity never works against it.
Many exist including the https://aonprd.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Chuspiki