| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The correct answer is: C. All of the above.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The correct answer is: C. All of the above.
That's why it's so expensive. You however can not quicken spells that are longer than a full round casting time, such as Summon Monster or Sleep spells that are one round casting time.
In other words, does a Greater Quicken Spell Metamagic Rod let you quicken...
A, level 7/8/9 spells
or
B, level 3/4/5 spells
Both.
Whichever one is worse for you is the one you use.
A spell whose casting time is more than 1 round or 1 full-round action cannot be quickened.Summon Monster spells are 1 round casting times, they can be quickened.
The text I just checked was so long as it has a casting time that is not more than 1 full-round action 1 round is longer than 1 full-round action, which is the combination of standard and move actions.
Full-round spells are those spells that take effect in the same round they are cast. That would be a sorcerer casting empowered fireball, for instance.
1-round spells are those whose effect comes into play in the next round. Summon Monster and Sleep are in that category.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
In other words, does a Greater Quicken Spell Metamagic Rod let you quicken...
A, level 7/8/9 spells
or
B, level 3/4/5 spells
Lesser Rods let you apply their effects to spells of 3rd level or lower. Moderate Rods let you apply their effects to spell of 6th level or lower. Greater Rods let you apply their effects to 9th level spells (the maximum spell level in the game) or lower.
Keep in mind, that this assumes a standard spell. If I cast an Intensified Fireball with, say, an Empowered Rod, I would require the use of a Moderate Empowered Rod, since an Intensified Fireball is normally considered a 4th level spell.
A better question would be if things like Magical Lineage or Wayang Spell Hunter factor in to the Metamagic Rod required (since all those abilities do is reduce the spell slot cost, and not the actual slot of said spell).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Here is the exact text from the Paizo website:
Casting a quickened spell is a swift action. You can perform another action, even casting another spell, in the same round as you cast a quickened spell. A spell whose casting time is more than 1 round or 1 full-round action cannot be quickened.It's 1 round, or 1 full-round action. A spell has to be longer than 1 round for you to be unable to cast it.
My copy of the CRB backs you up.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
? Whichever one is worse? B would be 'worse', yet that just isn't correct. In this context, the usual metamagic 'choose whichever is worse for the character' doesn't really apply.In other words, does a Greater Quicken Spell Metamagic Rod let you quicken...
A, level 7/8/9 spells
or
B, level 3/4/5 spells
Both.
Whichever one is worse for you is the one you use.
I completely misread the question.
For some reason I thought he was asking about stacking the rod with the feats to determine if the rod could be used or not.
I have no idea how.
(since all those abilities do is reduce the spell slot cost, and not the actual slot of said spell).Where is this difference spelled out in the rules?
An Intensified Fireball is a 4th level spell. The trait allows you to apply it as a 3rd level spell slot, but only for the purposes of your casting and what spell slot it takes for you, as the caster, to cast.
That's irrelevant for an item that doesn't factor that sort of thing into account.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
(since all those abilities do is reduce the spell slot cost, and not the actual slot of said spell).Where is this difference spelled out in the rules?An Intensified Fireball is a 4th level spell. The trait allows you to apply it as a 3rd level spell slot, but only for the purposes of your casting and what spell slot it takes for you, as the caster, to cast.
That's irrelevant for an item that doesn't factor that sort of thing into account.
That's not what the Magical lineage trait says:
Magical lineage:
Pick one spell when you choose this trait. When you apply metamagic feats to this spell that add at least 1 level to the spell, treat its actual level as 1 lower for determining the spell’s final adjusted level.The word 'slot' is nowhere to be found.
So, either these traits do something different, or 'level' and 'slot' are used interchangeably.
Yes, I used slot interchangably with level, because in most cases, they're synonymous in usage. (It's like that "Weapon = Attack" debacle in that one thread, except less stupid and annoying.)
Under normal circumstances, you use an appropriate slot in relation to the spell being cast, and 99% of the time, the slot is equal to the level of the spell. In those cases, you're casting it as a 4th level spell, as that's the slot you'd otherwise expend.
But, because of the Metamagic Spell rules, you're treating any effects and abilities that interact with that spell either as a 3rd or as a 4th level spell, whichever is worse for you. This would mean that, for abilities and effects that are worse for 3rd level spells (such as a Lesser Metamagic Rod), you couldn't apply that Rod, since it's considered a 4th level spell for the purpose of applying the Rod.
Conversely, for determining the Spell's DC, or any interactions based on spell level (such as Daylight compared to Deeper Darkness), it's treated as a 3rd level spell.
The question is whether things like Magical Lineage would change the paradigm of the above, and in my opinion it only changes what spell slot you require to cast, and not what other subjects require (in the case of a Metamagic Rod that you may be using).
In short, I think it's weird that a character with Magical Lineage can use a Lesser Rod on an Intensified Fireball and a character without Magical Lineage can't, since it gives that trait a lot of hidden power.
**EDIT** Revised my statement a bit so as to reduce confusion.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
What level slot is used before you start playing with the rod? That slot determines whether a least, standard, or greater rod is needed.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I don't think there is anything in the rules stopping a (spontaneous) caster from just applying his metamagic rod first (which doesn't affect the effective spell level) and his own metamagic feat after that. Unless there is some FAQ I'm not aware of?
Rods apply to the final spell. It isn't a fireball, enhanced by a rod, then maximized.
You can't know what type of rod you need till you know what the final level and slot of the spell is.
You can't know what slot to use till you know what the final level of the spell is.
The rules don't explicitly state the above, but this makes it consistent with prepared casters. The only difference between prepared and spontaneous casters is that spontaneous suffer the casting time increase. No other differences are spelled out in the rules - therefore you need to show a rule that they behave differently, or can be applied differently, to make it so.
As to magical lineage, the spell is for all intents and purposes 1 level lower then would normally be the case for a metamagic'd spell. e.g, a silent fireball is a 3rd level spell, in a 3rd level slot. Then apply the FAQ, take whichever 3rd level is worse for the caster.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Spells modified by a metamagic feat use a spell slot higher than normal. This does not change the level of the spell, so the DC for saving throws against it does not go up
Lesser and Greater Metamagic rods: Normal metamagic rods can be used with spells of 6th level or lower. Lesser rods can be used with spells of 3rd level or lower, while greater rods can be used with spells of 9th level or lower..
The metamagic rod does not seem to care about the spell slot used, but the level of the spell you cast. Metamagic does not change that level, so using your lesser rod of maximize on your empowered intensified fireball should be totally fine. It doesn't matter if you are casting prepared or spontaneous either.
Spells modified by a metamagic feat use a spell slot higher than normal. This does not change the level of the spell, so the DC for saving throws against it does not go upLesser and Greater Metamagic rods: Normal metamagic rods can be used with spells of 6th level or lower. Lesser rods can be used with spells of 3rd level or lower, while greater rods can be used with spells of 9th level or lower..The metamagic rod does not seem to care about the spell slot used, but the level of the spell you cast. Metamagic does not change that level, so using your lesser rod of maximize on your empowered intensified fireball should be totally fine. It doesn't matter if you are casting prepared or spontaneous either.
From the FAQ:
Metamagic: At what spell level does the spell count for concentration DCs, magus spell recall, or a pearl of power?
The spell counts as the level of the spell slot necessary to cast it.
For example, an empowered burning hands uses a 3rd-level spell slot, counts as a 3rd-level spell for making concentration checks, counts as a 3rd-level spell for a magus's spell recall or a pearl of power.
In general, use the (normal, lower) spell level or the (higher) spell slot level, whichever is more of a disadvantage for the caster. The advantages of the metamagic feat are spelled out in the Benefits section of the feat, and the increased spell slot level is a disadvantage.
Heighten Spell is really the only metamagic feat that makes using a higher-level spell slot an advantage instead of a disadvantage.
In short, I think it's weird that a character with Magical Lineage can use a Lesser Rod on an Intensified Fireball and a character without Magical Lineage can't, since it gives that trait a lot of hidden power.
I disagree. In particular, I think I disagree with both "hidden" -- it's a well-known and often-recommended usage -- and also with "a lot," since even in theory, it can only apply to third or sixth level spells (second or fifth if you take Wayang Spellhunter as well), and only to a single spell for any given caster.
Its arguably more abusive that a bard can cast a [i]persistent suggestion[i] using a lesser rod of, say, Extend Spell while a sorcerer, wizard, or witch needs a standard one. And by "more abusive" I mean "not really abusive at all, but someone somewhere will whine about it."