Gate spell and creature type


Rules Questions

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Unlike other calling spells (planar ally, planar binding) which refer to outsiders, gate refers to extraplanar creatures:

Quote:

Calling Creatures: The second effect of the gate spell is to call an extraplanar creature to your aid (a calling effect). By naming a particular being or kind of being as you cast the spell, you cause the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature and pull the subject through, willing or unwilling. Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to come through the gate, although they may choose to do so of their own accord. This use of the spell creates a gate that remains open just long enough to transport the called creatures. This use of the spell has a material cost of 10,000 gp in rare incense and offerings. This cost is in addition to any cost that must be paid to the called creatures.

If you choose to call a kind of creature instead of a known individual, you may call either a single creature or several creatures. In either case, their total HD cannot exceed twice your caster level. In the case of a single creature, you can control it if its HD does not exceed your caster level. A creature with more HD than your caster level can't be controlled. Deities and unique beings cannot be controlled in any event. An uncontrolled being acts as it pleases, making the calling of such creatures rather dangerous. An uncontrolled being may return to its home plane at any time.

If you choose to exact a longer or more involved form of service from a called creature, you must offer some fair trade in return for that service. The service exacted must be reasonable with respect to the promised favor or reward; see the lesser planar ally spell for appropriate rewards. Some creatures may want their payment in "livestock" rather than in coin, which could involve complications. Immediately upon completion of the service, the being is transported to your vicinity, and you must then and there turn over the promised reward. After this is done, the creature is instantly freed to return to its own plane.

Failure to fulfill the promise to the letter results in your being subjected to service by the creature or by its liege and master, at the very least. At worst, the creature or its kin may attack you.

Note: When you use a calling spell such as gate to call an air, chaotic, earth, evil, fire, good, lawful, or water creature, it becomes a spell of that type.

That is strange, because the extraplanar subtype is applied to any creature that is not on its native plane:

Quote:
Extraplanar Subtype: This subtype is applied to any creature when it is on a plane other than its native plane. A creature that travels the planes can gain or lose this subtype as it goes from plane to plane. Monster entries assume that encounters with creatures take place on the Material Plane, and every creature whose native plane is not the Material Plane has the extraplanar subtype (but would not have it when on its home plane). Every extraplanar creature in this book has a home plane mentioned in its description. Creatures not labeled as extraplanar are natives of the Material Plane, and they gain the extraplanar subtype if they leave the Material Plane. No creature has the extraplanar subtype when it is on a transitive plane, such as the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, or the Plane of Shadow.

So technically, I can only use gate to call outsiders that are currently not on their native plane (a solar crusader in Hell, for example). I could also use the spell to call planewalking adventurers from the Material Plane and force them into my service (this one could at least come in handy to bring the planeshifted fighter back from the Abyss). That doesn't seem to be the spell's original intent, though.


Extraplanar means in this case "Not native to the plane in which you're casting the spell." Which is generally assumed to be the Prime Material. Any outsider brought to the Prime Material gains the extraplanar subtype.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

That seems to be the intent, but extraplanar is clearly defined as a creature subtype (admittedly an unusual one, as it doesn't define the innate qualities of a creature).
If the effect of gate would only consist of the calling effect, it would have a target entry, and that entry could not be "one or more extraplanar creatures", because at the time of casting, the creature is still on its native plane. The correct entry would have to be something like "one or more creatures from another plane of existence".
I can understand that they didn't limit it to outsiders to open up the possibility of calling other planar creatures (undead nightshades, for example).

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

Having given this a bit more thought, the idea that gate can be used to call any creature from another plane is problematic. What stops a high-level wizard PC from calling the BBEG to their demiplane where the BBEG can be fought on the player's terms (or the other way around, for that matter)? Unless the BBEG walks around with a permanent antimagic field or dimensional anchor, nothing is going to counter that strategy (forbiddance might work as well, but it doesn't mention calling spells explicitly).


the bbeg falls under the unique being section of gate and they could just say lol naw and not be effected by the gate spell

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

Lady-J wrote:
the bbeg falls under the unique being section of gate and they could just say lol naw and not be effected by the gate spell

They would be affected, they just wouldn't be controlled--meaning they could return to their home plane once it's their turn, assuming they manage to survive that long.

I think a good house rule would be to state that gate only affects creatures that have (extraplanar) listed as a subtype in their Bestiary entry (even if they technically don't have that subtype at the time when the spell is cast).


Quote:
Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to come through the gate, although they may choose to do so of their own accord

so the party casts the spell to summon the bbeg and hes just like lol no and the party just wasted thousands of gold being stupid


"Unique Being" refers to unique outsiders, such as a deity's herald. Technically, every being in the universe is "unique," in that it has some slight differences to distinguish it from the rest of its kind.

If you read "unique being" to mean any creature that is not a carbon copy of another creature, well.... The spell becomes practically useless for binding.


i would put named creatures/npcs in the unique beings catagory so mr angel mcpesent face in heaven would be effected but harold the king of heaven would not be effected unless he wanted to be


That makes gate actually less useful than the planar binding spells, as with those you can actually name a specific outsider with their proper name to Call them as opposed to another random outsider of the same type.

Also, all creatures and NPCs have names... We just don't always find out what they are.


if its a powerful gm made npc or the main bad guy of the adventure path it would fall under the named npc bracket so throdal the barbarian lord on the undying plains(level 20 mythic 10 barbarian) would be a named npc while tim the pesent boy(level 1 commoner) would not be a named npc he may have a name but is not a named npc


Gate wrote:
If you choose to call a kind of creature instead of a known individual, you may call either a single creature or several creatures. In either case, their total HD cannot exceed twice your caster level. In the case of a single creature, you can control it if its HD does not exceed your caster level. A creature with more HD than your caster level can't be controlled. Deities and unique beings cannot be controlled in any event. An uncontrolled being acts as it pleases, making the calling of such creatures rather dangerous. An uncontrolled being may return to its home plane at any time.

The above quote tells us that if you call a kind of creature or an individual.

If you call a kind of creature, you may call a single creature or several creatures.
The kind of creature HD to be controlled is stated.

If you call a known individual, they cannot be controlled.

So... you can call and control one or more Bearded Devils, but if you call Frostmallindore the Bearded Devil you don't control him (giving him the choice to answer your call).

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

I think the distinction between individual and kind is not the same as the one between generic and unique.

The rules in Ultimate Magic for binding outsiders mention special boons for researching true names, which only makes sense for individual creatures.

Unique creatures are truly unique (one of a kind).


Amanuensis wrote:
I think the distinction between individual and kind is not the same as the one between generic and unique.

OK, but in terms of the Gate spell, where in its description dose it let you control an individual called. I'm not saying you can't call them, just that you don't have any control over them.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

The point I was trying to make is that the idea of calling any creature to a place of your choosing at a time of your choosing alone is highly problematic (ignoring the possibility of control, whatever that may imply).
I agree that the term 'control' is not clearly defined in the context of the gate spell. Comparing the Pathfinder version to the 3.5 version, there seems to be a paragraph missing:

Quote:

Calling Creatures: The second effect of the gate spell is to call an extraplanar creature to your aid (a calling effect). By naming a particular being or kind of being as you cast the spell, you cause the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature and pull the subject through, willing or unwilling. Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to come through the gate, although they may choose to do so of their own accord. This use of the spell creates a gate that remains open just long enough to transport the called creatures. This use of the spell has an XP cost (see below).

If you choose to call a kind of creature instead of a known individual you may call either a single creature (of any HD) or several creatures. You can call and control several creatures as long as their HD total does not exceed your caster level. In the case of a single creature, you can control it if its HD do not exceed twice your caster level. A single creature with more HD than twice your caster level can’t be controlled. Deities and unique beings cannot be controlled in any event. An uncontrolled being acts as it pleases, making the calling of such creatures rather dangerous. An uncontrolled being may return to its home plane at any time.

A controlled creature can be commanded to perform a service for you. Such services fall into two categories: immediate tasks and contractual service. Fighting for you in a single battle or taking any other actions that can be accomplished within 1 round per caster level counts as an immediate task; you need not make any agreement or pay any reward for the creature’s help. The creature departs at the end of the spell.

If you choose to exact a longer or more involved form of service from a called creature, you must offer some fair trade in return for that service. The service exacted must be reasonable with respect to the promised favor or reward; see the lesser planar ally spell for appropriate rewards. (Some creatures may want their payment in “livestock” rather than in coin, which could involve complications.) Immediately upon completion of the service, the being is transported to your vicinity, and you must then and there turn over the promised reward. After this is done, the creature is instantly freed to return to its own plane.

Failure to fulfill the promise to the letter results in your being subjected to service by the creature or by its liege and master, at the very least. At worst, the creature or its kin may attack you.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

This is my proposal for a fix. There is no inherent reason why these two different effects should be combined into one spell (right now it says: 'This spell creates an interplanar gate. Oh, and by the way, you may also use it to summon a god'). It should solve most of the problems discussed here and the word count is less than the original.

Spoiler:

Gate
School conjuration (creation); Level cleric 9, sorcerer/wizard 9
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect see text
Duration concentration (up to 1 round/level)

Gate creates an interdimensional connection between your plane of existence and a plane you specify, allowing travel between those two planes in either direction.

The gate itself is a circular hoop or disk from 5 to 20 feet in diameter (caster's choice) oriented in the direction you desire when it comes into existence (typically vertical and facing you). It is a two-dimensional window looking into the plane you specified when casting the spell, and anyone or anything that moves through is shunted instantly to the other side. A gate has a front and a back. Creatures moving through the gate from the front are transported to the other plane; creatures moving through it from the back are not.
A gate spell functions much like a plane shift spell, except that the gate opens precisely at the point you desire. Deities and other beings who rule a planar realm can prevent a gate from opening in their presence or personal demesnes if they so desire. Travelers need not join hands with you—anyone who chooses to step through the portal is transported. A gate cannot be opened to another point on the same plane; the spell works only for interplanar travel.

You may hold the gate open only for a brief time (no more than 1 round per caster level), and you must concentrate on doing so, or else the interplanar connection is severed.

Planar Calling
School conjuration (calling) [see text]; Level cleric 9, sorcerer/wizard 9
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (10,000 gp in rare incense and offerings; see text)
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target one or more creatures from another plane of existence, whose total HD may not exceed twice your caster level
Duration instantaneous; see text
Saving Throw none or Will negates; Spell Resistance no

Planar calling allows you to call a particular individual or kind of being from another plane of existence to your aid. By naming a particular being or kind of being as you cast the spell, you cause a planar rift to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature and pull the subject through, willing or unwilling. Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to follow your calling, although they may choose to do so of their own accord. A particular individual receives a saving throw to resist the effect.

You must be able to control a called creature to exact services from it. A creature with more HD than your caster level can't be controlled. Deities and unique beings cannot be controlled in any event. An uncontrolled being acts as it pleases, making the calling of such creatures rather dangerous. An uncontrolled being may return to its home plane at any time.

To exact a service from a called creature, you must offer some fair trade in return for that service. The service exacted must be reasonable with respect to the promised favor or reward; see the lesser planar ally spell for appropriate rewards. Some creatures may want their payment in "livestock" rather than in coin, which could involve complications. Immediately upon completion of the service, the being is transported to your vicinity, and you must then and there turn over the promised reward. After this is done, the creature is instantly freed to return to its own plane.
Failure to fulfill the promise to the letter results in your being subjected to service by the creature or by its liege and master, at the very least. At worst, the creature or its kin may attack you.

Note: When you use a calling spell such as planar calling to call an air, chaotic, earth, evil, fire, good, lawful, or water creature, it becomes a spell of that type.


Not really sure it needs a fix, the GM can decide that the BBEG is a "unique" creature if they wish, as "unique" is a pretty subjective term, given that frankly everything and everyone is actually truly unique and "one of a kind".

Given that it specifies "Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to come through the gate, although they may choose to do so of their own accord" and "Deities and unique beings cannot be controlled in any event", the intent of including these sections was likely to avoid problematic shenanigans like the ones you seem to be worried about, and to make it clear the decision is ultimately in the GM's hands when it comes to what's possible with the spell.

That's just my opinion though, if you're the GM or you can convince your GM to use your "proposal for a fix" then go nuts :)

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

Unique is not a subjective term, at least not in the way the game uses it. Adventure Paths include unique creatures. Empyreal Lords, Archdevils, and Demon Lords are unique cretures. Unique means that there is one and only one creature of that kind; no other creature with the same set of abilities exist. Not every individual specimen of a creature type is unique.

I'm not worried about deities or unique creatures, I'm worried about all other creatures that don't fall under this clause. I'm worried about the fact that any creature can be called with gate as long as it's not on its native plane (I only addressed part of this problem. Stating that the creature must be an elemental or outsider with the caveat that the GM may allow other creatures would be a reasonable solution). The problem is that the original gate spell treats (extraplanar) as an innate quality of a creature, which it is not.


Well gate is one of those spells that if they havnt changed by now they likely dont see too much of a problem with. The intent of gate seems pretty clear that it usually opens a "gate" to another plane and that's why it includes the "extraplanar" wording, even if it isnt used correctly or particularly clearly. As I say, they appear to have made an effort to stop it causing problems or shenanigans with the whole "unique" wording, but I accept that "unique" can also mean the specific "unique" term used alongside specific creatures.

I suppose the reason why it hasnt been changed / why players & GMs dont complain about it is because most players & GMs accept that plot/game destroying readings and uses of spells should generally be avoided or prevented. The spell still seems to function as intended if you accept that limitation.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Gate hasn't been changed because the wording (I believe) has been the same since 3.0.

They haven't bothered to change it because it's a lot like the Wish spell or other notoriously unspecific spells. They leave it to the GM to determine how to run the spell.

My view on it is this, you can ask for a Solar but you can't ask specifically for the Right Hand of Iomedae.

So you can get any kind of generic creature, but you can't ask for a specific individual of any sort. Asking for a specific individual allows them to refuse.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Gate spell and creature type All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.