First let me point out this is for PFS, so GM Caveat/Houserules are out.
Tower Shield Specialist Feat wrote: Benefit: You reduce the armor check penalty of tower shields by 3, and if you have the armor training class feature, you modify the armor check penalty and maximum dexterity bonus of tower shields as if they were armor. Armor Expert wrote: You have worn armor as long as you can remember, either as part of your training to become a knight's squire or simply because you were seeking to emulate a hero. Your childhood armor wasn't the real thing as far as protection, but it did encumber you as much as real armor would have, and you've grown used to moving in such suits with relative grace. When you wear armor of any sort, reduce that suit's armor check penalty by 1, to a minimum check penalty of 0. While I have doubts if it's RAI, RAW I think would be that the tower shield specialist feat, combined with the armor training class feature lets me apply any ACP modifiers that apply to armor, to my tower shield as well. It does NOT specify that you only apply the modifier provided by the armor training class feature, only that you must have the armor training class feature to use the ability.
So my interpretation is that by RAW the modifier from Armor Expert would be applied to the Tower shield ACP as well?
If you have x you modify [it] this way
The it is implied.
Shields are not Armor. The Armor Expert Trait is not the Armor Training class feature. The trait does not apply.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Glorf Fei-Hung wrote: First let me point out this is for PFS, so GM Caveat/Houserules are out.
Tower Shield Specialist Feat wrote: Benefit: You reduce the armor check penalty of tower shields by 3, and if you have the armor training class feature, you modify the armor check penalty and maximum dexterity bonus of tower shields as if they were armor. Armor Expert wrote: When you wear armor of any sort, reduce that suit's armor check penalty by 1, to a minimum check penalty of 0.
I believe it is quite clear that if you have the armor training class feature you treat the shield as armor for all effects that reduce armor check penalties.
It does not just say that you can apply your armor training to the tower shield.
Kigvan wrote: Glorf Fei-Hung wrote: First let me point out this is for PFS, so GM Caveat/Houserules are out.
Tower Shield Specialist Feat wrote: Benefit: You reduce the armor check penalty of tower shields by 3, and if you have the armor training class feature, you modify the armor check penalty and maximum dexterity bonus of tower shields as if they were armor. Armor Expert wrote: When you wear armor of any sort, reduce that suit's armor check penalty by 1, to a minimum check penalty of 0.
I believe it is quite clear that if you have the armor training class feature you treat the shield as armor for all effects that reduce armor check penalties.
It does not just say that you can apply your armor training to the tower shield. That doesn't logically follow.
The Armor Expert trait is not the same thing as the Armor Training class feature. You only modify a Tower Shield's checks/dex based on the Armor Training class feature, because that's what the rules say.
Byakko wrote: Kigvan wrote: Glorf Fei-Hung wrote: First let me point out this is for PFS, so GM Caveat/Houserules are out.
Tower Shield Specialist Feat wrote: Benefit: You reduce the armor check penalty of tower shields by 3, and if you have the armor training class feature, you modify the armor check penalty and maximum dexterity bonus of tower shields as if they were armor. Armor Expert wrote: When you wear armor of any sort, reduce that suit's armor check penalty by 1, to a minimum check penalty of 0.
I believe it is quite clear that if you have the armor training class feature you treat the shield as armor for all effects that reduce armor check penalties.
It does not just say that you can apply your armor training to the tower shield. That doesn't logically follow.
The Armor Expert trait is not the same thing as the Armor Training class feature. You only modify a Tower Shield's checks/dex based on the Armor Training class feature, because that's what the rules say. No, the rule says that if you have the Armor Training class feature, you modify tower shields' max dex mod and ACP as if they were armor. It does not limit that modification just to the class feature's modification. If you have both the feat and the class feature, anything that modifies the ACP and/or max dex of armor also applies to tower shields.
KahnyaGnorc wrote: Byakko wrote: Kigvan wrote: Glorf Fei-Hung wrote: First let me point out this is for PFS, so GM Caveat/Houserules are out.
Tower Shield Specialist Feat wrote: Benefit: You reduce the armor check penalty of tower shields by 3, and if you have the armor training class feature, you modify the armor check penalty and maximum dexterity bonus of tower shields as if they were armor. Armor Expert wrote: When you wear armor of any sort, reduce that suit's armor check penalty by 1, to a minimum check penalty of 0.
I believe it is quite clear that if you have the armor training class feature you treat the shield as armor for all effects that reduce armor check penalties.
It does not just say that you can apply your armor training to the tower shield. That doesn't logically follow.
The Armor Expert trait is not the same thing as the Armor Training class feature. You only modify a Tower Shield's checks/dex based on the Armor Training class feature, because that's what the rules say. No, the rule says that if you have the Armor Training class feature, you modify tower shields' max dex mod and ACP as if they were armor. It does not limit that modification just to the class feature's modification. If you have both the feat and the class feature, anything that modifies the ACP and/or max dex of armor also applies to tower shields. So you think having the Armor Training class feature makes a Tower Shield count as armor for ALL other purposes? I suppose that's one possible interpretation.
IMHO, however, it's not referring to ALL such modifiers, but only the modifiers provided by the armor training class feature mentioned directly beforehand.
I'm reading it as for the purpose of AT only as well. I understand that it can be read otherwise, but usually abilities like this state "for all effects that modify..." if they mean all things. So even if the RAW wasn't, as it is IMO , leaning towards AT only, I think the general context of PF wording makes the RAI clear.
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