|
Can I take feats that I don't meet the prerequisites for? Obviously, I don't benefit from the feats unless I meet the prerequisites, but am I able to select them despite this?
More specifically, can I take feats that I can only use while under the effects of a spell or other temporary increase? Or perhaps taking feats at 1st, that won't apply until I multi-class at a later level?
For example, can a character with base strength of 9 and Rage, take power attack in PFS?
Or could a 1st level fighter select Channel Smite as their bonus combat feat, despite not having cleric levels until 2nd level?
|
You can meet the prerequisites for a feat with magic items (such as a headband or belt that provides an attribute bonus), as long as the benefits are permanent. If you ever lose access to the item, the feat is then unusable until you regain or replace the item.
However, that does not mean that you can take a feat that you don't qualify for so that you can temporarily gain the requirements at some point in the future.
The same goes for requirements you plan to pick up later. You can't take Channel Smite expecting to gain a cleric level later.
The answer to the first I'm not sure of.
The answer to the second one is for sure no.
EDIT: The reason the first is iffy is Jason said here, "A brawler can use the feats granted by brawler's flurry to qualify for other feats, but can only use those other feats when using brawler's flurry (as that's the only time she actually meets those prerequisites).". So it seems that there are sometimes situations where you don't always qualify but qualify enough to take the feat and use it when you do qualify.
|
|
You can meet the prerequisites for a feat with magic items (such as a headband or belt that provides an attribute bonus), as long as the benefits are permanent. If you ever lose access to the item, the feat is then unusable until you regain or replace the item.
However, that does not mean that you can take a feat that you don't qualify for so that you can temporarily gain the requirements at some point in the future.
The same goes for requirements you plan to pick up later. You can't take Channel Smite expecting to gain a cleric level later.
Sounds goofy. So I can HAVE feats that are unusable on my present character, but can't ACQUIRE feats that are unusable on my current character?
So, seriously, is this a fluff thing? What's the logic here? Doesn't seem like a balance issue.
|
|
I'm not completely sure, but I'd say yes for the first example, since you'd meet the prerequisites temporarily, every day, but no for the second one.No, you can't take a feat if you don't have the prerequisite. That's pretty much what the word means ... ;-)
Got a page reference or something? You seem very sure, but I can't seem to find it on my own and it doesn't seem to be commonly understood when I ask people. My understanding is that prerequisties are required to USE feat, not the ACQUIRE the feat. I could defintiely be wrong, but that's why I'm asking.
And this one is PFS specific, as in a home game, I'd just ask the GM and they'd say yes on this one, to both questions, because it's completely reasonable and doesn't unbalance anything (as far as I can tell).
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he gains the prerequisite.
(emphasis mine)
|
Let's use another example, a feat called Rending Claws. It's prerequisites are Str 13, BAB +6 and two claw natural weapon attacks.
If the strenght and BAB prerequisites are met, could alchemist with feral mutagen discovery (grants two claw attacks when under effects of the mutagen) or sorcerer with abyssal or dragonic bloodline (able to gain two claw attacks for a number of rounds per day equal to 3 + Cha modifier) take that feat?
|
Let's use another example, a feat called Rending Claws. It's prerequisites are Str 13, BAB +6 and two claw natural weapon attacks.
If the strenght and BAB prerequisites are met, could alchemist with feral mutagen discovery (grants two claw attacks when under effects of the mutagen) or sorcerer with abyssal or dragonic bloodline (able to gain two claw attacks for a number of rounds per day equal to 3 + Cha modifier) take that feat?
No. It is temporary.
Now a natural attacking ranger with 2 permanent claw attacks could.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
So, seriously, is this a fluff thing? What's the logic here? Doesn't seem like a balance issue.
Seriously, I totally don't understand why this isn't logicical and clear. It seems to follow a pattern. The rules in feat section stating you must meet the prerequisites are always followed. There is no rule saying you lose a feat if you don't qualify, just that you lose access.
The permanently qualify thing is well documented.
The temporarily qualify would need to be adjudicated on a case by case basis like Jason's post for Brawler.
|
|
The answer to the first I'm not sure of.
The answer to the second one is for sure no.
EDIT: The reason the first is iffy is Jason said here, "A brawler can use the feats granted by brawler's flurry to qualify for other feats, but can only use those other feats when using brawler's flurry (as that's the only time she actually meets those prerequisites).". So it seems that there are sometimes situations where you don't always qualify but qualify enough to take the feat and use it when you do qualify.
I think Brawler's Flurry is an exception to the general rule, and Jason's statement should not be taken as a general rule. The Brawler has a lot of exceptions built in. Some of them became class features (Brawler's Cunning), and some of them were spelled out in posts/clarifications, like this one.
|
As stated in the Core Rulebook, and quoted by Tony Lindman above, you can't take a feat if you don't qualify. It has been clearly stated in the past that permanent modifiers, such as stat boosting items, are good enough to meet the qualifications.
It's the temporary modifiers that are the question. For instance, the example above about a sorcerer or bloodrager that only has claws for rounds per day, and doesn't know if they qualify for a feat that requires claws. Or is only meeting a strength requirement while you're raging as a barbarian/bloodrager good enough?
Back when I made my first PC for PFS, I assumed the answer to that temporary qualification was "no". I intentionally built my barbarian with 15 con before raging bonus, so he'd qualify for the Raging Vitality feat. I'm not sure if I was assuming something incorrectly, though.
|
|
Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he gains the prerequisite.(emphasis mine)
Huh, guess this was a rules question. Thanks. Never played it like this in a home game under any GM. Thought it was a PFS specific houserule.
That sure makes the Medium, Barbarian, and all the other classes that rely on temporary abilties, a whole ton worse.
|
|
This happens all the time. I've seen a ton of builds talked about on the forums and class guides where a 3/4 BAB class can't take Weapon Focus at level 1, because it requires BAB +1, so it delays them from taking a feat chain they want. It's just something you have to plan around. As I said, I made a point of starting with 15 con on my barbarian, just so I'd qualify for Raging Vitality.
|
|
Never played it like this in a home game under any GM.One GM doesn't check the rules and says "seems good" can translate into a whole table of people thinking it works one way when it works another.
I don't think it's a lack of reading. I think the key is that it isn't a balance issue. If players can only use the feat when they meet the prerequisites, then it really doesn't matter if they acquire the feat when they can't use it. Plus the Retraining rules allow characters go back, and swap early level feats for ones they can use now, but couldn't then, so it isn't about characters getting access to feats that they aren't intended to be able to access within the total feats a character can apply.
Honestly, seems like the only real issue here is that characters could potentially be weaker than the game intends, since they could have a bunch of feats that they can't always use.
|
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
Plus the Retraining rules allow characters go back ... so it isn't about characters getting access to feats that they aren't intended to be able to access within the total feats a character can apply.
Actually that was a hot button balance issue at the time. It was considered unbalancing when released that it was a topic of discussion on a Know Direction podcast with Jason explaining the "power boost" was covered by the cost (gp) spent on the retaining and the fact the GM could simply say "no" to the retraining.
|
|
Never played it like this in a home game under any GM.One GM doesn't check the rules and says "seems good" can translate into a whole table of people thinking it works one way when it works another.
I don't think it's a lack of reading. I think the key is that it isn't a balance issue. If players can only use the feat when they meet the prerequisites, then it really doesn't matter if they acquire the feat when they can't use it. Plus the Retraining rules allow characters go back, and swap early level feats for ones they can use now, but couldn't then, so it isn't about characters getting access to feats that they aren't intended to be able to access within the total feats a character can apply.
Honestly, seems like the only real issue here is that characters could potentially be weaker than the game intends, since they could have a bunch of feats that they can't always use.
I think the real issue is in practicality. Remember these are not Matrix Downloads that rush into your mind one day and you're like "I Know Kung Fu!" These are abilities that you spend weeks or months training for and practicing to be able to achieve these higher levels of martial, physical, mental performance. A person that can only train with claw attacks 3 times per day isn't going to be able to learn how to be anywhere near as proficient with them as someone who has claws 24/7. A Brawler may only have two weapon fighting when wielding certaini weapons. But that still allows him to learn just as much and be just as skilled when he trains with those weapons for 6 months as the 2 weapon fighting rogue that he spars with during that time.
Just because the time doesn't occur over the course of 5 games where you're roleplaying your training, doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.
|
|
Depends how you role play it. You can have characters that start at level 1 as total noobs to adventuring and gradually become better fighters. OR, you could be an old adventurer, which already knows all their is to adventuring, but has either forgotten or purposely blocked out, that information - rather than learning new stuff, you are recalling old stuff.
Even saw an anime where they did neither, instead they were recalling skills from their past lifes as they progressed.
A common theme in film is a character that claims to be skilled in an area that they don't presently have means to show off, then they show off their amazing skills when it comes up. That film, Willow, has a character who claims to be an amazing swordsmen, but lacks a sword until quite some time later.