If i'm an eldritch guardian fighter with a bite attack and I pick up slashing grace (bite), does my Scarlet Spider familiar get 1-1/2 dex to damage?
I had up until now assumed this would be fine, but I recently stumbled across this thread which is somewhat related and has a loosely connected FAQ link that could cause this to not be the case.
Then again, there's also this thread that (if you scroll down a little) seems to conclude that it does allow 1.5x dex to damage for creatures with only one natural attack, and it also (briefly) mentions the same FAQ.
So... Does it add 1.5x dex to damage? Anyone know of anything i've missed?
Here's an FAQ that is related (Unchained FAQ). It indicates that the familiar would not get 1-1/2 dex to damage if you apply the same rules to Slashing Grace that you do to an Unchained Rogue's finesse training. Not conclusive, but it's the closest I could find.
Here's an FAQ that is related (Unchained FAQ). It indicates that the familiar would not get 1-1/2 dex to damage if you apply the same rules to Slashing Grace that you do to an Unchained Rogue's finesse training. Not conclusive, but it's the closest I could find.
Yes, that's the exact FAQ that's mentioned in both of the links i provided, but each thread comes to opposite conclusions :)
What it comes down to is whether or not the creatures innate ability to add 1.5x str to damage if it has only one natural attack is more similar to adding 1.5x str to damage by wielding a weapon two-handed or if its more similar to an ability that specifically increases damage multipliers.
What you have to consider is that that FAQ talks about adding 50% dex to off hand and 150% dex to two hand. And you have to bear in mind that the natural weapon equivalent to off-hand is Secondary, and the natural weapon equivalent to two-handed is having - and attacking with - only one natural attack. (A bit wonky on the latter, but the intent for offhand = secondary seems pretty clear)
Slashing Grace does not, to my knowledge, add 1+1/2 Dex to damage, so I'd say the spider only gets its base modifier to damage.
Slashing Grace does not, to my knowledge, add 1+1/2 Dex to damage, so I'd say the spider only gets its base modifier to damage.
So does that mean you're saying that with slashing grace used on secondary natural weapons would give full dexterity to damage instead of 50% strength?
If not, then it seems odd you're applying the 0.5x part of the rule, bit not the 1.5x part of the rule, especially given that the two sentences that give these rules are right next to eachother:
Secondary attacks are made using the creature’s base attack bonus –5 and add only 1/2 the creature’s Strength bonus on damage rolls. If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature’s full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 times the creature’s Strength bonus on damage rolls.
Yes, because the rules for Dexterity to damage are not the rules for Strength to damage.
Yes, because the rules for Dexterity to damage are not the rules for Strength to damage.
Rogue: "adds her Dexterity modifier instead of her Strength modifier to the damage roll." Compare to the slashing grace: "add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to that weapon’s damage"
Sounds the same to me, and the Rogue FAQ says off-hand = 50% and two-hand = 150%So the rules for dexterity to damage follow the same rules as strength to damage for the rogue according to the FAQ, and slashing grace is worded identically.
Assuming with natural weapons: secondary = off-hand equivalent and only one attack = two handed equivalent then I'm not seeing why they'd work differently unless there's a ruling stating otherwise.
FAQs, as we've been told, only apply to what they are about. Until they FAQ/errata Slashing Grace, it does not work the same way Unchained Rouge's dex-to-damage does.
I think the intent is for the creature to get 1.5 dex to damage, if it was previously getting 1.5 strength to damage. And for secondary attacks to only get .5 dex to damage. The current FAQ are silent on this issue, probably because they simply didn't consider this case at the time.
"you can add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to that weapon’s damage"
Dmg=x+(1.5*StrMod)
If StrMod=DexMod, then Dmg=x+(1.5*DexMod)
FAQs, as we've been told, only apply to what they are about. Until they FAQ/errata Slashing Grace, it does not work the same way Unchained Rouge's dex-to-damage does.
You expect there to be a seperate FAQs saying the same thing for slashing grace, fencing grace, dervish dance, starry grace AND mythic weapon finesse even though they contain the exact same wording?
Wow :)
I think the intent is for the creature to get 1.5 dex to damage, if it was previously getting 1.5 strength to damage. And for secondary attacks to only get .5 dex to damage. The current FAQ are silent on this issue, probably because they simply didn't consider this case at the time.
"you can add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to that weapon’s damage"
Dmg=x+(1.5*StrMod)
If StrMod=DexMod, then Dmg=x+(1.5*DexMod)
This is what I had assumed also, it falls in line with the expected outcome.
I must admit Azten's discussion about whether or not slashing grace was the same as all the other dex to damage feats / abilities is not something I saw coming. I was expecting the thread to discuss the idea of equivalency between off-hand = secondary attack and two-hand = single primary attack to translate the dex to damage FAQ. Which i believed to be the developers intent, given the use of the terms alongside one-another in things like Power Attack and the wording of the Natural Attacks section. (Or, of course, for someone to point out a reason for this not to be the case - in the form of a related natural weapon FAQ, or similar, which I might have overlooked.)
FAQs, as we've been told, only apply to what they are about. Until they FAQ/errata Slashing Grace, it does not work the same way Unchained Rouge's dex-to-damage does.You expect there to be a seperate FAQs saying the same thing for slashing grace, fencing grace, dervish dance, starry grace AND mythic weapon finesse even though they contain the exact same wording?
Wow :)
I'm just pointing out what we've been told and how it applies to the rules.
Also, slashing grace doesn't have the limiting language that exists, like the agile weapon property does.
Agile says, "... apply her Dexterity modifier to damage rolls with an agile weapon in place of her Strength modifier. This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is still reduced for off-hand weapons."
So, agile sets a precedent that you keep the 1.5 or .5 multipliers unless you are specified not to.
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Slashing Grace has its own limits though;
Benefit: When you take this feat, choose one kind of light or one-handed slashing weapon (such as the longsword). When wielding your chosen weapon one-handed, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a swashbuckler's or a duelist's precise strike), and you can add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to that weapon's damage. The weapon must be one appropriate for your size. You do not gain this benefit while fighting with two weapons or using flurry of blows, or any time another hand is otherwise occupied.
I'm rather skeptical that a bite attack can ever be wielded in a single hand.
Actually I doubt any natural attack can be wielded in a hand.
And because slashing grace insists that you use the weapon in a single hand, there should never be a 1.5 Strength scenario anyway.
Slashing Grace has its own limits though;
Benefit: When you take this feat, choose one kind of light or one-handed slashing weapon (such as the longsword). When wielding your chosen weapon one-handed, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a swashbuckler's or a duelist's precise strike), and you can add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to that weapon's damage. The weapon must be one appropriate for your size. You do not gain this benefit while fighting with two weapons or using flurry of blows, or any time another hand is otherwise occupied.I'm rather skeptical that a bite attack can ever be wielded in a single hand.
Actually I doubt any natural attack can be wielded in a hand.
And because slashing grace insists that you use the weapon in a single hand, there should never be a 1.5 Strength scenario anyway.
It could be argued that the "when" clause only applies to the first part of the sentence, while the second part of the sentence is meant to be standalone.
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I'm not under the impression that slashing grace can apply to natural attacks. Even if so, I'm doubtful that it would apply to Bite attacks, as they aren't *just* slashing weapons.
If you had a pair of claws (light slashing weapons), and you decided to wield one hand, and keep the other in your pocket, I suppose this feat might apply, but still iffy.
I'm not under the impression that slashing grace can apply to natural attacks. Even if so, I'm doubtful that it would apply to Bite attacks, as they aren't *just* slashing weapons.
If you had a pair of claws (light slashing weapons), and you decided to wield one hand, and keep the other in your pocket, I suppose this feat might apply, but still iffy.
The slashing grace FAQ mentions you not gaining slashing grace for any natural weapons beyond the one you chose with slashing grace, so I guess that implies slashing grace working with natural weapons? Most threads seemed to think so, it couldve ben something that was overlooked though.
As for whether or not a bite attack is a slashing weapon, yes, it is. It can deal slashing piercing or bludgeoning. Just like a dagger can deal slashing and piercing, and a dagger is still a slashing weapon and a piercing weapon.
Unless anyone's heard anything different :)
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As for whether or not a bite attack is a slashing weapon, yes, it is. It can deal slashing piercing or bludgeoning. Just like a dagger can deal slashing and piercing, and a dagger is still a slashing weapon and a piercing weapon.
Not sure for slashing grace, but your example here is dead wrong.
A bite deals Slashing AND Piercing AND Bludgeoning damage. It doesn't deal the best type, it does all three at once. This makes bites strong against DR, but sometimes it can be a disadvantage to be unable to deal only a single damage type.
A dagger deals Slashing OR Piercing damage. You have to declare which one you are using, each time you use it. This means that against a creature with DR/Slashing, you will not bypass the DR if you have declared that you are dealing Piercing damage.
As for whether or not a bite attack is a slashing weapon, yes, it is. It can deal slashing piercing or bludgeoning. Just like a dagger can deal slashing and piercing, and a dagger is still a slashing weapon and a piercing weapon.Not sure for slashing grace, but your example here is dead wrong.
A bite deals Slashing AND Piercing AND Bludgeoning damage. It doesn't deal the best type, it does all three at once. This makes bites strong against DR, but sometimes it can be a disadvantage to be unable to deal only a single damage type.
A dagger deals Slashing OR Piercing damage. You have to declare which one you are using, each time you use it. This means that against a creature with DR/Slashing, you will not bypass the DR if you have declared that you are dealing Piercing damage.
I'll concede I never noticed that it said AND not OR before, so does that mean claws arent slashing weapons (B AND S)? Looking at the weapons on the pfsrd looks like the morningstar, hurlbat and a few others are the same and share the AND wording though, that's pretty interesting, does that make weapons that deal slashing AND other damage not slashing weapons though? Is a morningstar not a bludgeoning weapon? Seems like a stretch, has this been explored before? At first glance i'd stil assume if a weapon can deal a type of damage, its a weapon of that type.
Thanks for pointing out the AND/OR thing to me by the way :)
Interesting that this thread keeps going in directions I didn't expect.
So does anyone else think that a weapon that deals slashing and bludgeoning damage isnt a slashing or bludgeoning weapon?
Personally I think if it deals the damage of that type, it is a weapon of that type. And given people think keen morningstars are allowed, and Morningstars are Bludgeoning Weapons etc etc, I'm leaning toward that being the case.
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I'll concede I never noticed that it said AND not OR before, so does that mean claws arent slashing weapons? Looking at the weapons on the pfsrd looks like the morningstar, hurlbat and a few others are the same and share the AND wording though, that's pretty interesting, does that make weapons that deal slashing AND other damage not slashing weapons though? Is a morningstar not a bludgeoning weapon? Seems like a stretch, has this been explored before? At first glance i'd stil assume if a weapon can deal a type of damage, its a weapon of that type.
Thanks for pointing out the AND/OR thing to me by the way :)
As I understand it, it qualifies as both weapon types at once. Regarding DR, the DR rules are specific here and use the best type always, so it is advantageous to deal multiple damage types. That said, using the best type is unique to the DR rules, as having lots of damage types works against you most of the rest of time. There's also quirky rules, like the underwater combat, which apply penalties differently by damage type, but give not clear indication on how this is handled for multiple damage types on the same weapon swing.
As for damage types on natural weapons, like claws, this is a handy link (scroll down to natural attacks).
According to the table in the link, claws are Bludgeoning AND Slashing weapons.
Mind you, this table only applies if your natural attack doesn't specify otherwise. For example, the racial Half-Orc "Toothy" trait is a bite attack that deals only Piercing damage.
I'm doubtful that it would apply to Bite attacks, as they aren't *just* slashing weapons.
Given the case of a morningstar counting as piercing for keen and counting as a bludgeoning weapon for feats that require a bludgeoning weapon, I still think that the "AND" thing only affects DR as mentioned by people in other threads. Unless you have a FAQ or developer stating otherwise to enforce your idea :)
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I still think that the "AND" thing only affects DR as mentioned by people in other threads. Unless you have a FAQ or developer stating otherwise to enforce your idea :)
Up to the GM, I suppose. As for the FAQ or developer, that one goes both ways, because it really doesn't say.
I've definitely seen GMs apply the -2 attack and half damage to bite attacks for creatures fighting underwater, even aquatic creatures like sharks. We've gotten in long debates on the forum regarding this, but ultimately, it doesn't say and the FAQ still doesn't address it.
I'm not sure we need an FAQ or developer to tell us that a weapon that inherently deals slashing damage is a slashing weapon...
I'll agree that as a GM you could say and do whatever you want though.
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