Are the FTL drives magical as in Dragonstar, would they be able to function without magic?
Star Wars is yet another science fantasy setting you can have all sorts of interesting adventures without encountering a force user. The interesting question is how would Pathfinder magic fit into this interstellar setting. There have been a number of Force effects witnessed in the various Star Wars movies, there was precognition, telekinesis, the famous "Force choke" that Darth Vader likes to use, and of course there is the "Force Lighting" that wa employed by the Emperor. Pathfinder magic can do so much more, you can turn someone into a mouse, you can teleport, I wonder precisely how far you can teleport in Starfinder? There is other stuff, resurrection, healing, you name it!
Tom Kalbfus wrote: Are the FTL drives magical as in Dragonstar, would they be able to function without magic? I don't think we have a definitive answer yet, but it seems like they are either pure tech or magitech, and not pure magic.
Tom Kalbfus wrote: Star Wars is yet another science fantasy setting you can have all sorts of interesting adventures without encountering a force user. The interesting question is how would Pathfinder magic fit into this interstellar setting. There have been a number of Force effects witnessed in the various Star Wars movies, there was precognition, telekinesis, the famous "Force choke" that Darth Vader likes to use, and of course there is the "Force Lighting" that wa employed by the Emperor. Pathfinder magic can do so much more, you can turn someone into a mouse, you can teleport, I wonder precisely how far you can teleport in Starfinder? There is other stuff, resurrection, healing, you name it! Based on what we've seen so far, I get the impression that magic doesn't seem to reach the highest pinnacles of its achievement in the Pathfinder era, but does seem to be roughly as common.
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The Drift has been said to only be accessed through mundane tech.
Stone Dog wrote: The Drift has been said to only be accessed through mundane tech. Well, whatever opens the rift into the Drift itself is tech, but it could be powered from a magical source, or automated by magic, etc.
More specifically I think it has been said to be completely inaccessible by magic. But that doesn't preclude a mana reactor, true. I hope that magic can't interact with it at all. Like telling something magic to enter the Drift would be like telling a dog to drive you to work.
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Magic is "Common" in Starfinder.
Tom Kalbfus wrote: Are the FTL drives magical as in Dragonstar, would they be able to function without magic?
The slogan in Dragonstar is Science Defines Limits, Magic Breaks Them.
The FTL in Dragonstar comes in two forms... Fixed Gates, and magictech devices that have teleport charges in them. The devices amplify the power of the teleport spells within them so that they can teleport ships and the mechanics use a modfied version of the teleport table to determine if the ship arrives at it's desired destination. There's actually even a highway that spans all 12 capital worlds via wide gates as well as an orbiting space station that orbits all 12 capitals and is used as an express travel option for ships.
Otherwise the ships use standard SCIFI engines for STL travel.
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How common is distinctly divine magic? Is it possible for a player to play a truly atheistic character who simply believes the gods don't exist? In pathfinder it's next to impossible to deny the intervention of the gods, but what about starfinder?
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There may be isolated worlds where magic is not believed in, or else magic is believed to be sufficiently advanced technology so as to be indistinguishable from it. Lets say one of the gods, for his own amusement decided to gate in a town from a nonmagical universe, lets call this planet Earth, for argument sake. the denzens of this town wake up on a alien planet, there is an unfamiliar moon in the sky, it just so happens to be inhabited by dinosaurs, and whatever god was involved decided to import some intelligent creatures from this nonmagical parallel universe. The residents of this town explore the borders, a highway ends abruptly with a jungle, some creatures the residents recognize as dinosaurs are discovered, thankfully this is a largely rural community and there are plenty of farms for growing food. There are no bars for the cell phones, the GPS on cars give no latitude and longitude, some enterprising individual has a ham radio, and tries contacting other people on the planet, it just so happens that there are some explorers on the other side of the planet and they receive the signal bouncing off the ionosphere, and in a matter of hours a spaceship lands in the middle of town. One of the town residents says they are from the "Future" and they don't know how they ended in the age of the dinosaurs, and openly wonders if there were any major changes made to the timeline by their presence here in the "Past". A cleric on the ship consults with his deity using a spell, and his deity informs him that they are not from the future, but from a parallel universe instead. The townfolk argue that dinosaurs are extinct and so they must be in the past.
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Archmage Variel wrote: How common is distinctly divine magic? Is it possible for a player to play a truly atheistic character who simply believes the gods don't exist? In pathfinder it's next to impossible to deny the intervention of the gods, but what about starfinder? I'm not the official answer but here is what i understand so far; There is no Player based Divine Magic, magic is just magic with not break out for divine, arcane or psychic as Pathfinder has. Divinity continues to exist as this is the same setting as Pathfinder and as such, alignments, outer planes, gods, demons, devils, angels and all of that are still very much in existence. The FTL as we know it, the Drift, directly interacts with "heaven" and "hell". Knowledge of the gods is probably just assumed as a default for most planets. Worship may vary and it doesnt seem like anyone is directly receiving divine power anymore but they are still recognized and have active faiths among mortals.
Given the super science themes of the game, it is possible that there are those who do not believe the gods are actually gods but rather energy state aliens trying to pose as something more than they are for... reasons. in the end what ever you call them, they are extremely powerful and get to have a say in what happens to your souls when you die so maybe being on good terms with a few of them isnt such a bad thing.
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To quote myself from a different thread:
"Ok. I prayed for healing for you."
"My spleen is still all over the cargo hold."
"Well, so as not to create paradoxes, prayers can only travel at the speed of light. By my calculations, we should be getting an answer in... in... you know what? Never mind my calculations. You just lay there and let the healing power of the gods wash over you."
"Are you sure I can't just have a medpack? Even a suture or two would be--"
"--shush, shhhh... the gods... wait for it..."
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quibblemuch wrote: To quote myself from a different thread:
"Ok. I prayed for healing for you."
"My spleen is still all over the cargo hold."
"Well, so as not to create paradoxes, prayers can only travel at the speed of light. By my calculations, we should be getting an answer in... in... you know what? Never mind my calculations. You just lay there and let the healing power of the gods wash over you."
"Are you sure I can't just have a medpack? Even a suture or two would be--"
"--shush, shhhh... the gods... wait for it..."
Alternately:
"Well, we applied the medpack and we've saved the arm. You should be able to start using it in a week or so and with proper physical therapy and follow up care, you'll get back to full function in a couple of months."
"Cleric!"
"Hmm? Oh sure. <waves hands, prays> It'll be fine in a couple of minutes. Let's go."
I mean, sure you can make magic useless for healing. Or you can do it the other way round. Or aim for a balance where both are effective. I'm pretty sure magic isn't going to be useless superstition that the smart people avoid to rely on tech.
We have already seen in the playtest that a super skilled mechanic was able to super charge a D6 laser to a D6+D4 at the expense of 3 charges instead of 1... and then the Technomancer used a level 1 spell to "magic charge" a D6 pistol to add 4D6, so yeah, magic is still totally a thing that people use along side and to augment tech.
Really want to see how that power worked, imagining a scene from a China Meiville novel where sniper teams include spotters, shooters and "buffing" mages, think of that in Starfinder; Envoy provides direction and encouragement for targeting, Technomancer quadruples energy output of the weapon and the shooter's skills ignore target's defensive bonuses and add precision dice.
More directly for healing, i thought they said there is magic healing and "tech healing" that is also super fast but in general the stamina and resolve system means you dont have as dire a need for either most of the time.
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thejeff wrote: I mean, sure you can make magic useless for healing. Or you can do it the other way round. Or aim for a balance where both are effective. I'm pretty sure magic isn't going to be useless superstition that the smart people avoid to rely on tech. My intent was purely humorous. The theory was that by creating a dialogue that combined a rigorous application of our current understanding of the limitations of the physical cosmos with a fantasy role-playing game trope, a sense of absurdist comedy provoking laughter would arise from the inapt juxtaposition.
Clearly the experiment was not entirely a success.
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quibblemuch wrote: thejeff wrote: I mean, sure you can make magic useless for healing. Or you can do it the other way round. Or aim for a balance where both are effective. I'm pretty sure magic isn't going to be useless superstition that the smart people avoid to rely on tech. My intent was purely humorous. The theory was that by creating a dialogue that combined a rigorous application of our current understanding of the limitations of the physical cosmos with a fantasy role-playing game trope, a sense of absurdist comedy provoking laughter would arise from the inapt juxtaposition.
Clearly the experiment was not entirely a success. Adjust variables, collect a new specimen group (possibly post under new screen name?) and rerun trial.
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Torbyne wrote: Adjust variables, collect a new specimen group (possibly post under new screen name?) and rerun trial. We could do that.
Or... and hear me out... we could wait for the gods.
Shush, shhhh... the gods...
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*BEEEEEEP*
Um, this is Zeus. I'm not at home right now, but you can leave a message and I'll get back to you. Please start speaking at the tone.
*Beep*
Mailbox is full. Please try again later. Goodbye.
quibblemuch wrote: thejeff wrote: I mean, sure you can make magic useless for healing. Or you can do it the other way round. Or aim for a balance where both are effective. I'm pretty sure magic isn't going to be useless superstition that the smart people avoid to rely on tech. My intent was purely humorous. The theory was that by creating a dialogue that combined a rigorous application of our current understanding of the limitations of the physical cosmos with a fantasy role-playing game trope, a sense of absurdist comedy provoking laughter would arise from the inapt juxtaposition.
Clearly the experiment was not entirely a success. Magic can do things that science cannot, both can heal, but only magic can resurrect the dead after he body has been mostly destroyed. There are Pathfinder spells who's effects can be replicated with technology, fireballs and hand grenades for instance. Science in general can't go "poof" and your a mouse. I wonder what happens if a vampire encounters an android? Can't suck his blood, he doesn't have any, not sure if he can drain the energy level of something which may not have a soul!
thejeff wrote: quibblemuch wrote: To quote myself from a different thread:
"Ok. I prayed for healing for you."
"My spleen is still all over the cargo hold."
"Well, so as not to create paradoxes, prayers can only travel at the speed of light. By my calculations, we should be getting an answer in... in... you know what? Never mind my calculations. You just lay there and let the healing power of the gods wash over you."
"Are you sure I can't just have a medpack? Even a suture or two would be--"
"--shush, shhhh... the gods... wait for it..."
Alternately:
"Well, we applied the medpack and we've saved the arm. You should be able to start using it in a week or so and with proper physical therapy and follow up care, you'll get back to full function in a couple of months."
"Cleric!"
"Hmm? Oh sure. <waves hands, prays> It'll be fine in a couple of minutes. Let's go."
I mean, sure you can make magic useless for healing. Or you can do it the other way round. Or aim for a balance where both are effective. I'm pretty sure magic isn't going to be useless superstition that the smart people avoid to rely on tech. It's really not a balance if both are equally effective. A spell slot is something that almost invariably replenishes automatically every day and can be used for as many different functions as the spells of the relevant level provide. Technological medicine almost certainly takes resources each time it's used that don't replenish, and can't be used for something else when there's no healing to be done. That isn't balanced.
Bluenose wrote: thejeff wrote: quibblemuch wrote: To quote myself from a different thread:
"Ok. I prayed for healing for you."
"My spleen is still all over the cargo hold."
"Well, so as not to create paradoxes, prayers can only travel at the speed of light. By my calculations, we should be getting an answer in... in... you know what? Never mind my calculations. You just lay there and let the healing power of the gods wash over you."
"Are you sure I can't just have a medpack? Even a suture or two would be--"
"--shush, shhhh... the gods... wait for it..."
Alternately:
"Well, we applied the medpack and we've saved the arm. You should be able to start using it in a week or so and with proper physical therapy and follow up care, you'll get back to full function in a couple of months."
"Cleric!"
"Hmm? Oh sure. <waves hands, prays> It'll be fine in a couple of minutes. Let's go."
I mean, sure you can make magic useless for healing. Or you can do it the other way round. Or aim for a balance where both are effective. I'm pretty sure magic isn't going to be useless superstition that the smart people avoid to rely on tech. It's really not a balance if both are equally effective. A spell slot is something that almost invariably replenishes automatically every day and can be used for as many different functions as the spells of the relevant level provide. Technological medicine almost certainly takes resources each time it's used that don't replenish, and can't be used for something else when there's no healing to be done. That isn't balanced. OTOH, you can carry around more of the resource and aren't limited by "slots".
It's certainly possible to make that balance without making one ineffective - much like it's possible to balance healing spells with healing magic items. Even if Pathfinder arguably hasn't done so.
thejeff wrote: Bluenose wrote: thejeff wrote: quibblemuch wrote: To quote myself from a different thread:
"Ok. I prayed for healing for you."
"My spleen is still all over the cargo hold."
"Well, so as not to create paradoxes, prayers can only travel at the speed of light. By my calculations, we should be getting an answer in... in... you know what? Never mind my calculations. You just lay there and let the healing power of the gods wash over you."
"Are you sure I can't just have a medpack? Even a suture or two would be--"
"--shush, shhhh... the gods... wait for it..."
Alternately:
"Well, we applied the medpack and we've saved the arm. You should be able to start using it in a week or so and with proper physical therapy and follow up care, you'll get back to full function in a couple of months."
"Cleric!"
"Hmm? Oh sure. <waves hands, prays> It'll be fine in a couple of minutes. Let's go."
I mean, sure you can make magic useless for healing. Or you can do it the other way round. Or aim for a balance where both are effective. I'm pretty sure magic isn't going to be useless superstition that the smart people avoid to rely on tech. It's really not a balance if both are equally effective. A spell slot is something that almost invariably replenishes automatically every day and can be used for as many different functions as the spells of the relevant level provide. Technological medicine almost certainly takes resources each time it's used that don't replenish, and can't be used for something else when there's no healing to be done. That isn't balanced. OTOH, you can carry around more of the resource and aren't limited by "slots".
It's certainly possible to make that balance without making one ineffective - much like it's possible to balance healing spells with healing magic items. Even if Pathfinder arguably hasn't done so. That rather depends on the cost and weight of the resource in question and the number of spell slots available, and let's note that the caster can also carry a supply of it as well if they want to.
Bluenose wrote: That rather depends on the cost and weight of the resource in question and the number of spell slots available, and let's note that the caster can also carry a supply of it as well if they want to. All of which are balancing factors that don't rely on technological healing being less effective than magic.
Tom Kalbfus wrote: quibblemuch wrote: thejeff wrote: I mean, sure you can make magic useless for healing. Or you can do it the other way round. Or aim for a balance where both are effective. I'm pretty sure magic isn't going to be useless superstition that the smart people avoid to rely on tech. My intent was purely humorous. The theory was that by creating a dialogue that combined a rigorous application of our current understanding of the limitations of the physical cosmos with a fantasy role-playing game trope, a sense of absurdist comedy provoking laughter would arise from the inapt juxtaposition.
Clearly the experiment was not entirely a success. Magic can do things that science cannot, both can heal, but only magic can resurrect the dead after he body has been mostly destroyed. There are Pathfinder spells who's effects can be replicated with technology, fireballs and hand grenades for instance. Science in general can't go "poof" and your a mouse. I wonder what happens if a vampire encounters an android? Can't suck his blood, he doesn't have any, not sure if he can drain the energy level of something which may not have a soul! You are only looking at modern, real world technology vs fantastical magical effects. This is far future sci-fantasy where it is already established that magic and technology interact (hence the technomancer) and it is entirely plausible that anything magic can do can also be accomplished with technology. Even in settings where there is a much more reduced role for "magic" we see entirely tech based "resurrection" in The 5th Element, they had just a few cells and brought back Leeloo Corban Dallas Multipas to what we can only assume was her default mental state. Stargate's ZedPMs were small enough to be man portable and powerful enough to produce *almost* infinite energy, they only had trouble with them because so many of the ones they found were several million years old and had been in constant use. Using Nanites to transmogify someone's body but preserve their mind is entirely believable in such a setting. Or go for a Culture kind of thing and store builing sized devices in extra-dimensional spaces with only the tip of the iceberg in real space. (but please dont, i dont want ED shenanigans rampant in Starfidner)
And once again, Androids in Pathfinder/Starfinder are clearly and repeatedly established to have real, actual, souls. The same as every other living thing. Its not up for debate in these settings, it just is like skill points or that core fighters/monks/rogues are mistakes ;)
quibblemuch wrote: We could do that.
Or... and hear me out... we could wait for the gods.
Shush, shhhh... the gods...
I'm going to have to show up for your game, aren't I?
thejeff wrote: Bluenose wrote: That rather depends on the cost and weight of the resource in question and the number of spell slots available, and let's note that the caster can also carry a supply of it as well if they want to. All of which are balancing factors that don't rely on technological healing being less effective than magic. I havent used it all that much but as i recall the tech based healing in the tech guide/iron gods was just a little too slow for in combat use (fine since in combat healing is usually not the best place to find yourself) and a little more reliable for out of combat use. It was Balanced but Different. And i really liked that aspect of it. The length of time we are talking about here is a few seconds vs a minute or two to fully heal someone from torn into pieces to back to full health so they both come across as "magic" compared to mundane means.
Some other fun tech-as-magic, having a backup drive of a person's memories that can be redownloaded to a fresh clone.
oh yeah, The short story "Diamond Dogs, Turquoise Days" used this idea to great effect to basically tells a dungeon dive story set in a super high tech setting. One of the characters basically became a Tiefling on a whim to change up their look.
thejeff wrote: "Well, we applied the medpack and we've saved the arm. You should be able to start using it in a week or so and with proper physical therapy and follow up care, you'll get back to full function in a couple of months."
"Cleric!"
"Hmm? Oh sure. <waves hands, prays> It'll be fine in a couple of minutes. Let's go."
I mean, sure you can make magic useless for healing. Or you can do it the other way round. Or aim for a balance where both are effective. I'm pretty sure magic isn't going to be useless superstition that the smart people avoid to rely on tech.
This is one area that I doubt would have easily been replaced by tech. While with super science I am sure you get super medicine, I doubt that healing magic would EVER go 'by the wayside'. If even only for a nice backup there is not much that can beat 'wave your hands and the person is whole again'.
Healing magic I think would probably be even MORE advanced at this era if anything, IMO, as it would be a magical school that would have never gotten 'left behind' unless scientific healing managed to somehow totally outshine it in every way.
But magical healing has always been most strongly associated with divine casters and there are no more casters with a divine bent as far as i know. The gods are still around but seem less involved with day to day events on the prime material. So who gets the healing spells now? Envoys? Mechanics? Technomancers? i could at least see Technomancers increasing the effectiveness of tech-healing but thats about it from the classes we've seen so far.
Torbyne wrote: in The 5th Element, they had just a few cells and brought back Leeloo Corban Dallas Multipas to what we can only assume was her default mental state. St 5th Element, enjoyable as it was was more Bugs Bunny than Science Fiction, after all you have the big bad evil planetoid wind up suspended over the Earth instead of smashing into it because it essentially ran out of evil gas.
Given what passed for the President, and the Army superior characters.. as well as all of the taxi and stuffed in the closet jokes, the movie could not have been more Bugs Bunny, saved where it was Daffy Duck.
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Torbyne wrote: But magical healing has always been most strongly associated with divine casters and there are no more casters with a divine bent as far as i know. The gods are still around but seem less involved with day to day events on the prime material. So who gets the healing spells now? Envoys? Mechanics? Technomancers? i could at least see Technomancers increasing the effectiveness of tech-healing but thats about it from the classes we've seen so far. What about the Mystic?
Where is all this material that people are drawing class conclusions from?
David knott 242 wrote: Torbyne wrote: But magical healing has always been most strongly associated with divine casters and there are no more casters with a divine bent as far as i know. The gods are still around but seem less involved with day to day events on the prime material. So who gets the healing spells now? Envoys? Mechanics? Technomancers? i could at least see Technomancers increasing the effectiveness of tech-healing but thats about it from the classes we've seen so far. What about the Mystic?
Oh hey, that would make some sense, wouldnt it? I had forgotten about that one...
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote: Torbyne wrote: in The 5th Element, they had just a few cells and brought back Leeloo Corban Dallas Multipas to what we can only assume was her default mental state. St 5th Element, enjoyable as it was was more Bugs Bunny than Science Fiction, after all you have the big bad evil planetoid wind up suspended over the Earth instead of smashing into it because it essentially ran out of evil gas.
Given what passed for the President, and the Army superior characters.. as well as all of the taxi and stuffed in the closet jokes, the movie could not have been more Bugs Bunny, saved where it was Daffy Duck. Sci-Fi-Bunny.
Also, genre or not, there better be a ZF-1 on that gear list... as exotic and high level restricted of course.
Torbyne wrote: Also, genre or not, there better be a ZF-1 on that gear list... as exotic and high level restricted of course. Or else...?
disappointment? Begging and pleading for supplemental material in the future? ... House Ruling something for home games?
Torbyne wrote: Tom Kalbfus wrote: quibblemuch wrote: thejeff wrote: I mean, sure you can make magic useless for healing. Or you can do it the other way round. Or aim for a balance where both are effective. I'm pretty sure magic isn't going to be useless superstition that the smart people avoid to rely on tech. My intent was purely humorous. The theory was that by creating a dialogue that combined a rigorous application of our current understanding of the limitations of the physical cosmos with a fantasy role-playing game trope, a sense of absurdist comedy provoking laughter would arise from the inapt juxtaposition.
Clearly the experiment was not entirely a success. Magic can do things that science cannot, both can heal, but only magic can resurrect the dead after he body has been mostly destroyed. There are Pathfinder spells who's effects can be replicated with technology, fireballs and hand grenades for instance. Science in general can't go "poof" and your a mouse. I wonder what happens if a vampire encounters an android? Can't suck his blood, he doesn't have any, not sure if he can drain the energy level of something which may not have a soul! You are only looking at modern, real world technology vs fantastical magical effects. This is far future sci-fantasy where it is already established that magic and technology interact (hence the technomancer) and it is entirely plausible that anything magic can do can also be accomplished with technology. Even in settings where there is a much more reduced role for "magic" we see entirely tech based "resurrection" in The 5th Element, they had just a few cells and brought back Leeloo Corban Dallas Multipas to what we can only assume was her default mental state. Stargate's ZedPMs were small enough to be man portable and powerful enough to produce *almost* infinite energy, they only had trouble with them because so many of the ones they found were several million years old and had been in constant use. Using Nanites to transmogify... I thought they had software! Maybe the soul is in the software. Maybe the AI God is in charge of an electronic Heaven, in another television show it was called "Apotheosis".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caprica_%28TV_series%29
From what we can tell, Magic will be just as common in Starfinder as it is in Pathfinder. It might have some slight branding differences, but not any real change.
It's being billed as D+D in Space science fantasy, not Traveler with Magic.
Here's a way to make tech healing just as 'free' as magical healing:
Tech characters have a portable fabricator that can pump out a finite amount of specialised nanomachines per day, but are otherwise unlimited. The nanomachines are volatile and have limited lifespan, so you can only hang onto a few batches at a time. You spend a batch of medical nanomachines to heal someone instantly. You can run out, just like a spellcaster, and have to wait until tomorrow for your fabricator to finish working on the next lot. (spellbook, spell slots)
Some nanomachines may require rarer elements, limiting their use! (material components)
:P
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote: From what we can tell, Magic will be just as common in Starfinder as it is in Pathfinder. It might have some slight branding differences, but not any real change.
It's being billed as D+D in Space science fantasy, not Traveler with Magic.
From what I understand there is Starjammer, which is a reprise of Spelljammer, that is D&D in space, though its a different kind of space, Wild Space with crystal spheres, the ships are propelled by magic by a magic using character sitting on a helm, Each ship has its own gravity field and drags around its own atmosphere whenever it leaves the atmosphere of a planet, gravity is either on or off and it is always equal to 1 Earth gravity. The Other D&D in space RPG I am familiar with is Dragonstar.
To me the main difference between magic an science is that science has an explanation behind it and magic just happens, people say the magical incantations and cast a spell and something happens. I am one who thinks science should contrast with magic, we should use known laws of physics in explaining various science fiction devices, there is conservation of mass, you have inertial, you have the speed of light, you have the laws of motion, and magic basically breaks those laws. In universe where science and magic coexist, I'd say for instance the FTL drives should at least be partially magical, because they are breaking laws of physics to exceed the speed of light. A purely technological device shouldn't be able to polymorph someone into a mouse, You are not going to get a shrink ray, a freeze ray or a polymorph ray out of a purely technological device, I'd say save these impossible effect for magi to do, and let technology stick with the possible. It is more fun that way.
Umbral Reaver wrote: Here's a way to make tech healing just as 'free' as magical healing:
Tech characters have a portable fabricator that can pump out a finite amount of specialised nanomachines per day, but are otherwise unlimited. The nanomachines are volatile and have limited lifespan, so you can only hang onto a few batches at a time. You spend a batch of medical nanomachines to heal someone instantly. You can run out, just like a spellcaster, and have to wait until tomorrow for your fabricator to finish working on the next lot. (spellbook, spell slots)
Some nanomachines may require rarer elements, limiting their use! (material components)
:P
Magic under the Pathfinder system has built in limits, nanotechnology not so much. I would tend to shy away from nanotech on the technological side of things, and save magic for magic to do. Nanotech is unbalancing, there are no good rules for keeping it in check without it sounding vary artificial and contrived, magic on the other hand has rules, it exists outside of physics, and more importantly it can't be mass produced, while technology can be which is why it so unbalancing if not handled carefully!
Nanite hypoguns are a really good example of tech healing that I think works really well.
Tom Kalbfus wrote: Torbyne wrote: Tom Kalbfus wrote: quibblemuch wrote: thejeff wrote: I mean, sure you can make magic useless for healing. Or you can do it the other way round. Or aim for a balance where both are effective. I'm pretty sure magic isn't going to be useless superstition that the smart people avoid to rely on tech. My intent was purely humorous. The theory was that by creating a dialogue that combined a rigorous application of our current understanding of the limitations of the physical cosmos with a fantasy role-playing game trope, a sense of absurdist comedy provoking laughter would arise from the inapt juxtaposition.
Clearly the experiment was not entirely a success. Magic can do things that science cannot, both can heal, but only magic can resurrect the dead after he body has been mostly destroyed. There are Pathfinder spells who's effects can be replicated with technology, fireballs and hand grenades for instance. Science in general can't go "poof" and your a mouse. I wonder what happens if a vampire encounters an android? Can't suck his blood, he doesn't have any, not sure if he can drain the energy level of something which may not have a soul! You are only looking at modern, real world technology vs fantastical magical effects. This is far future sci-fantasy where it is already established that magic and technology interact (hence the technomancer) and it is entirely plausible that anything magic can do can also be accomplished with technology. Even in settings where there is a much more reduced role for "magic" we see entirely tech based "resurrection" in The 5th Element, they had just a few cells and brought back Leeloo Corban Dallas Multipas to what we can only assume was her default mental state. Stargate's ZedPMs were small enough to be man portable and powerful enough to produce *almost* infinite energy, they only had trouble with them because so many of the ones they found were several million years old and had been in constant use. Using ... I wish i could recall the exact write up but as i remember it Androids were first developed by Androffans in what is likely to be at least 10,000 years prior to Starfinder starting, likely to be several thousand years before any kind of AI was developed on Golarion or Absalom Station even. And Androids had souls from the very beginning. It was not planned and the Androffans did not know much about it as they had turned away from their gods and didnt seem to understand the outer planes or afterlife as those on Golarion did. It does raise questions about demons, undead and general spirituality they encountered in their exploration of the universe but the Androffans likely had no idea that souls were real or that their creations had them and even if they did it is doubtful that they would know where the souls were "stored" in the Androids anymore than they would know where souls are stored in an organic... i do hope that there is some more development of their background in Starfinder now that they are promoted to a core race and the knowledge of their creation is... if not common place at least understood by a few groups that also know about souls and magic and all. It is possible that Pact World origin Shells are superior in quality to Androffa's Shells since the Pact Worlds just know so much more about the other side of life.
I bet we will see Androids following their own drives and not a universal adherence to the AI god. Afterall they have existed far longer and would have set up their own culture of some sort prior to its existence.
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Torbyne wrote: But magical healing has always been most strongly associated with divine casters and there are no more casters with a divine bent as far as i know. Actually that is not what I think they have said. They said that the new core classes, who are all 6 level casters, use a unified magic structure with no division between arcane and divine.
They have not come out and said that the older magic using types (like Wizards and Clerics) don't exist any more just that they are not in prominence.
There must be some primitive planets out there that are isolated and still pretty much a Pathfinder setting for all intents and purposes. To me, a fighter is a fighter is a fighter, they always exist, give him a gun instead of a sword, and its still the same character class, dexterity becomes more important that strength, some different class skills become relevant in a futuristic setting, but he's still a fighter. Rogues should exist a plenty in Starfinder. I see no reason why clerics shouldn't exist, giving them different names don't change what they are.
Tom Kalbfus wrote: There must be some primitive planets out there that are isolated and still pretty much a Pathfinder setting for all intents and purposes. To me, a fighter is a fighter is a fighter, they always exist, give him a gun instead of a sword, and its still the same character class, dexterity becomes more important that strength, some different class skills become relevant in a futuristic setting, but he's still a fighter. Rogues should exist a plenty in Starfinder. I see no reason why clerics shouldn't exist, giving them different names don't change what they are. People who use or are called by those terms may exist but the skills and abilities they exhibit can and hopefully will be very different from what we have seen in Pathfinder. For instance, i hope that the Soldier class, which is basically the Fighter of Starfinder is actually much closer to a Ranger or a Slayer than the actual Fighter class. That people call Soldiers Fighters in setting doesnt bother me but the actual abilities of the class should be much more than just "i have full BAB and some feats"
Likewise, a technomancer who can super charge healing nanobots and runs a faith aligned clinic could be called a priest or a cleric, could even fill those roles, but has vastly different abilities from what a Pathfinder Cleric would.
There is the Mystic which we know almost nothing about and they seem like the best bet to take over the spell types that would normally fall under Druid or Cleric but their role in the setting or in a party is unknown at this point... but they might be the tech agnostic fill in class for casters of all flavors so primitive world wizards, clerics, priests and sorcerers could all be built off the same class?
Torbyne wrote: For instance, i hope that the Soldier class, which is basically the Fighter of Starfinder is actually much closer to a Ranger or a Slayer than the actual Fighter class.That people call Soldiers Fighters in setting doesn't bother me but the actual abilities of the class should be much more than just "i have full BAB and some feats" Definitely hope this as well. Also the rogue/operative. Out of the Starfinder classes, the two that are most like the classic 3rd edition classes are the most worrisome for being potential problems. Not for what they can do, but not being able contribute outside a narrow window.
Technomancer, Mechanic and Solarion look pretty good (though I'd love to hear about the latter's non-combat options, that 'the melee class' is more than just 'I hit it with my sword' is something of a relief.)
Similarly, the Mystic probably has some biology related abilities comparable to the technomancers hacking abilities (at least that's how the short description reads).
The Envoy seems to have several things to do (and given the way the iconic is loaded for bear, has combat options aplenty), my only worry there is the envoy is basically a statement that no one else should even bother trying to be 'the Face.'
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Tom Kalbfus wrote: Umbral Reaver wrote: Here's a way to make tech healing just as 'free' as magical healing:
Tech characters have a portable fabricator that can pump out a finite amount of specialised nanomachines per day, but are otherwise unlimited. The nanomachines are volatile and have limited lifespan, so you can only hang onto a few batches at a time. You spend a batch of medical nanomachines to heal someone instantly. You can run out, just like a spellcaster, and have to wait until tomorrow for your fabricator to finish working on the next lot. (spellbook, spell slots)
Some nanomachines may require rarer elements, limiting their use! (material components)
:P
Magic under the Pathfinder system has built in limits, nanotechnology not so much. I would tend to shy away from nanotech on the technological side of things, and save magic for magic to do. Nanotech is unbalancing, there are no good rules for keeping it in check without it sounding vary artificial and contrived, magic on the other hand has rules, it exists outside of physics, and more importantly it can't be mass produced, while technology can be which is why it so unbalancing if not handled carefully! Nanotechnology is limited by energy consumption among other factors. Hence, limiting nanotech is perfectly in line with physical laws.
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