This should be a no-brainer, but I need additional opinions and information about this question.
A couple days ago, a friend of mine, who also takes part in my own campaigns, joined another group and made a Level 10, Human Monk using Unchained rules, to be entered into a Mythic campaign. We were regaling about Monk usage, when he claimed he would be rolling 8d8 per his usual attacks and it raised an alarm bell.
Being an avid Monk user, it threw up a red flag, that he shouldn't be rolling that many dice for his level. His explanation was that in addition to his standard attacks, his two fists, he would go into Flurry of Blows.
I KNOW this to be wrong, as they are separated as Standard and Full-Attack actions, that they shouldn't be able to do that. According to him, this DM has been playing D&D and it's forms for 15 years and supposedly condones this and plays this way. I believe he even mentioned once that they're supposed to take up the movement part of turns, which also is bogus as far as I'm concerned on the matter.
This sounds exorbitantly unorthodox and we had a bit of a heated debate about it. Being at work, with only phones to check up on rough details, we couldn't reach a conclusion and he seemed to be in a huff about it, so I dropped the conversation.
This problem still bugged me though, so I finally dug into the Pathfinder rules and, based on pages for combat rules 181-184 of the Pathfinder Core Rulebook, as well as the Flurry of Blows rules on page 57, detailing that they are a full-attack action, it supports my argument.
However, I won't say I'm completely right until I have all the information. As of now, I don't have a way of physically looking at the Unchained Rulebook for Monks and, while I seriously doubt the book would change combat rules on how Monks work, as well as just throwing out old combat rules entirely, I needed to post this up to sate my curiosity and, potentially, put this issue to rest.
Any and all information is appreciated. Please, thank you and blessed be.
Not sure what your question is, but there is no known way in pathfinder for monk unarmed to increase to 8d8 for a medium sized monk.
Thank you for your reply. I figured as much, but I of course don't know everything about the game, so I needed the info, and I apologize for the confusion. I'll make a more concise question then.
Is there a way, between the Core rules and the Unchained Rules for Monks, with maybe a max level of 1 or 2 Mythic Levels, that would allow them to either:
A) Reach the criteria for base 8d8 damage, that is 8 individual strikes, by Level 10?
or
B) Be able to make more attacks than Flurry of Blows or normal standard attacks would allow?
I hope that cleans up the query considerably.
I assume that you are talking about rolling 8d8 for damage. Is this damage for each attack or the total amount of damage he can roll in a round? If it is the total damage there are probably ways that it can be achieved especially with mythic rules. He may also be using a rule from a previous version of the game that no longer applies.
8 attacks at level 10? Unlikely.
4 attacks with 2d8 damage each? Possible (3 attacks from Flurry, 1 from Mythic, 2d8 from being large somehow).
1 attack at 8d8? maybe with a Vital strike chain or something.
8 attacks at 8d8? Are you f******g kiddin' me?
I figured out how it is being done. Mythic elemental fist and the mythic feat Titan Strike will get his damage to 2d8. He gets 3 attacks normally and can spend a point of Ki to get 4. This will get 4 attacks at 2d8 for a total of 8d8.
I double checked and he does not even need elemental strike. The mythic feat Titan strike will increase his damage to 2d8 and then either a mythic point or point of Ki will get him the extra attack. This is not really that hard to do and with a little optimization it can actually be a lot higher. Throw in monks robs and a few other mythic feats and it will be a lot higher. Mythic rules are very powerful and increase what can be done a lot.
I'll go ahead and type out what he said and it makes even less sense than what he originally said to me. I'm gonna break it up for easier reading.
"--at the 6th level you gain a second full motion, first full motion flurry of blows, my fists deal 2d8 damage for the first hit +8 strength modifier, 2nd attack of flurry of blows 2 d8 and as is stated in the flurry description you add strength again, so first full motion 4d8.
And 16 strength bonus, since im at tenth level i have a second full motion based of my second bab score, so i flurry one more time as a single standard action so i do 4d8 and another 16 strength totallimg 8 d8 damage +32, so to reiterate 2+2+2+2=8 and 8+8+8+8=36 dealt over two full motions which i had gained the second at 6th level."
At this point, I question if he really read the rules or not, but maybe you guys can make more sense of this than I can.
I have no idea what he's talking about, and I think you're right to question whether he has actually read the rules.
A 10th level UnMonk should be getting 3 attacks when flurrying: two at full BAB (one from existing and another from FoB) and one at BAB-5 for having a high enough BAB.
You should probably help him review how action economy and iterative attacks work.
Also, I'm not sure how he's getting a +8 STR modifier. With a STR of 16, his modifier is 3, and even if he's adding the STR mods of two separate attacks together there's no way to get 8 by multiplying 3 by any whole number.
Best I can tell, he's replaced the extra attacks from FoB and high BAB with "motions". These motions seem to be equivalent to standard actions in his mind, and in his mind FoB seems to be a standard action as well. Even if that's what he's doing, his math is still coming out with an extra two d8's.
Basically, he is wrong and you are right.
As has been said, 4 attacks are possible (3 from Flurry at +10/+10/+5 BAB, plus one from either a mythic point or a Ki point).
A base damage per attack of 2d8+STR is also possible with mythic feat Titan strike (turning his damage die from medium 1d10 to large 2d8).
His Strength might look high, but if he started with an 18, +2 from Human, +2 from 4th and 8th level advancement and a +4 belt (expensive but could be his GM is generous) he'd be at 26 which would be the +8 modifier.
Might be his game-language isn't what we expect it to be, but the math can work out.
I have no idea what he's talking about, and I think you're right to question whether he has actually read the rules.
A 10th level UnMonk should be getting 3 attacks when flurrying: two at full BAB (one from existing and another from FoB) and one at BAB-5 for having a high enough BAB.You should probably help him review how action economy and iterative attacks work.
Also, I'm not sure how he's getting a +8 STR modifier. With a STR of 16, his modifier is 3, and even if he's adding the STR mods of two separate attacks together there's no way to get 8 by multiplying 3 by any whole number.
Best I can tell, he's replaced the extra attacks from FoB and high BAB with "motions". These motions seem to be equivalent to standard actions in his mind, and in his mind FoB seems to be a standard action as well. Even if that's what he's doing, his math is still coming out with an extra two d8's.
Basically, he is wrong and you are right.
That seems to be the jist of it and I've attempted to help him out, but it had the exact opposite effect that I hoped for. He doesn't want to rule check at all, claims his DM knows better and, adding insult to injury, he's leaving my own group completely to simply play at that group.
It stings, but if he's gonna be that negative about rules criticism, I don't believe he should be in my group anyway. Between the community's answers and his opposition, I get the impression that my question has been sufficiently answered to sate my curiosity for a while.
Thank you all again for your time into this matter.
As has been said, 4 attacks are possible (3 from Flurry at +10/+10/+5 BAB, plus one from either a mythic point or a Ki point).
A base damage per attack of 2d8+STR is also possible with mythic feat Titan strike (turning his damage die from medium 1d10 to large 2d8).His Strength might look high, but if he started with an 18, +2 from Human, +2 from 4th and 8th level advancement and a +4 belt (expensive but could be his GM is generous) he'd be at 26 which would be the +8 modifier.
Might be his game-language isn't what we expect it to be, but the math can work out.
That seems to be the best case, but the crux of his argument seems to be this weird second string of Flurry of Blows he says he's getting from, what seems to be, nowhere. The BAB seems to be what he's thinking he's getting it from, but trying to explain BAB, the difference between Standard and Full-Round actions, just fell on deaf ears with him.
If nothing else, it seems more damage was done trying to dispute his Monk rather just staying out of it, which may have been better, but sadly I'm the debating type and his game language about gives me an aneurysm. Weird considering he was playing a Wizard just fine, prior to this, but I guess that's over now :/
I forgot about extra attack from Mythic, which by his logic would provide the extra 2d8. As to his ability score modifier, I think his STR is 18.
my fists deal 2d8 damage for the first hit +8 strength modifier,
The 2d8 came from the weird terminology and math he's using, and I believe he is combining two "attacks" into one "hit". That means the +8 he mentions is also from two "attacks", and therefore one "attack" would have a +4 modifier, or a STR of 18.
In other words, he things FoB functions like Manyshot and Rapid Shot combined, except that the Manyshot portion applies to every attack he makes that round.
|
I think I understand what you're saying.
You're saying that he's saying that he gets two Standard Actions from his BAB at Lvl. 10, and also Flurry of Blows? If so, that is not how any of those things work and I'm really worried that his old DM allowed it.
Basically, you only get one Standard Action per round in Pathfinder, but you can forgo your Standard Action and Move Action ("Full Round Action" altogether) to get a Full-Attack Action, which would give him two attacks. With the Unchained Monk, however, he can get three attacks at that level if he uses Flurry of Blows, INSTEAD of the Full-Attack Action. He can get four if he spends Ki on it.
Basically, unless he's doing Mythic shenanigans, he's only getting four per round max, each doing 1d10 damage if they hit.
EDIT: Actually if he used to play 5e, it would explain this whole confusion. He's probably thinking that the FoB is merely extra attacks, and that Standard Actions are the same as 5e Attack Actions, which he would get two of at that level, in addition to the Flurry.
You're saying that he's saying that he gets two Standard Actions from his BAB at Lvl. 10, and also Flurry of Blows? If so, that is not how any of those things work and I'm really worried that his old DM allowed it.
He's also saying that FoB tacks on an extra attack for each attack he makes, including the attack granted by FoB. I don't know how it's possible to misunderstand the rules the way he managed to do so, but I guess it's a moot point now that he's left the group.
That seems to be the jist of it and I've attempted to help him out, but it had the exact opposite effect that I hoped for. He doesn't want to rule check at all, claims his DM knows better and, adding insult to injury, he's leaving my own group completely to simply play at that group.
Well, I'm sorry you lost a player over such a weird rules misunderstanding, but it's probably for the best. I hope it doesn't cost your friendship too :/
I forgot about extra attack from Mythic, which by his logic would provide the extra 2d8. As to his ability score modifier, I think his STR is 18.
my fists deal 2d8 damage for the first hit +8 strength modifier,The 2d8 came from the weird terminology and math he's using, and I believe he is combining two "attacks" into one "hit". That means the +8 he mentions is also from two "attacks", and therefore one "attack" would have a +4 modifier, or a STR of 18.
In other words, he things FoB functions like Manyshot and Rapid Shot combined, except that the Manyshot portion applies to every attack he makes that round.
Essentially, which without even looking at his sheet, I don't know if he even had Mythic levels yet, as he was just introduced.
I think I understand what you're saying.
You're saying that he's saying that he gets two Standard Actions from his BAB at Lvl. 10, and also Flurry of Blows? If so, that is not how any of those things work and I'm really worried that his old DM allowed it.
Basically, you only get one Standard Action per round in Pathfinder, but you can forgo your Standard Action and Move Action ("Full Round Action" altogether) to get a Full-Attack Action, which would give him two attacks. With the Unchained Monk, however, he can get three attacks at that level if he uses Flurry of Blows, INSTEAD of the Full-Attack Action. He can get four if he spends Ki on it.
Basically, unless he's doing Mythic shenanigans, he's only getting four per round max, each doing 1d10 damage if they hit.
EDIT: Actually if he used to play 5e, it would explain this whole confusion. He's probably thinking that the FoB is merely extra attacks, and that Standard Actions are the same as 5e Attack Actions, which he would get two of at that level, in addition to the Flurry.
Precisely, and I did my best to break that down, but he got mad, said his other group was more fun and stopped talking.
Also, playing 5e is probably out the window as Pathfinder seemed to be his introduction to D&D. He was aware what it was, but if I recall correctly, he never played, so Pathfinder was his entry, so I do not think the 5e rulings are to blame here for his confusion, I think it's more either ignorance or his DM, or both, that are the cause of this.
Well, I'm sorry you lost a player over such a weird rules misunderstanding, but it's probably for the best. I hope it doesn't cost your friendship too :/
I hope so too. He's not a bad dude, just gets a bit testy. He will, hopefully, come around, but I might have to consider if it'd be healthy for the group if he attempts to return, if he ever does.
Also, playing 5e is probably out the window as Pathfinder seemed to be his introduction to D&D. He was aware what it was, but if I recall correctly, he never played, so Pathfinder was his entry, so I do not think the 5e rulings are to blame here for his confusion, I think it's more either ignorance or his DM, or both, that are the cause of this.
...Maybe his DM played 5e? :)
|
|
Well, I'm sorry you lost a player over such a weird rules misunderstanding, but it's probably for the best. I hope it doesn't cost your friendship too :/I hope so too. He's not a bad dude, just gets a bit testy. He will, hopefully, come around, but I might have to consider if it'd be healthy for the group if he attempts to return, if he ever does.
I wish you the best with that! He just needs to learn not to be stubborn and trust a DM's rule-based ruling. You seem really reasonable, and were even willing to consider this claim.
Monks aren't so powerful, even with Unchained, but with eight attacks every round... it'd be a supremely capable class, what with all the crits it'd be pumping out.
That's the kind of thing I wish I could read Unchained for to fully comprehend how they deal with it. What I do know about Flurry is that it can't be combined with Two-Weapon Fighting, because the description itself says that a Monk's strikes acts as if he already has Two-Weapon Fighting and, with his natural or monk weapons, is considered to have no off-hand. Taking the feats, technically do nothing for a Monk.
I wish I could read the book further. He might have some validity, but the way he words it, leads me to think otherwise.
...Maybe his DM played 5e? :)
According to him, his DM has played for 15+ years. Any player worth his salt would be able to distinguish rules and, frankly, if there are mistakes, they'd be in reverse to earlier versions, in my mind anyway.
|
|
That's the kind of thing I wish I could read Unchained for to fully comprehend how they deal with it.
Would this help? One of many great things about Pathfinder is that Paizo puts near-everything online!
Well, I'm sorry you lost a player over such a weird rules misunderstanding, but it's probably for the best. I hope it doesn't cost your friendship too :/I hope so too. He's not a bad dude, just gets a bit testy. He will, hopefully, come around, but I might have to consider if it'd be healthy for the group if he attempts to return, if he ever does.I wish you the best with that! He just needs to learn not to be stubborn and trust a DM's rule-based ruling. You seem really reasonable, and were even willing to consider this claim.
Monks aren't so powerful, even with Unchained, but with eight attacks every round... it'd be a supremely capable class, what with all the crits it'd be pumping out.
Ooooooh I wouldn't say that ;D my own Drow Monk at his height was a force to be reckoned with. He was only second in DPS to the party's Barbarian which...got really, really ridiculous, especially when the spell casters beefed her size increase and strength increase spells.
My own Monk's damage output, at minimum damage, if all five blows connected, was 120, to a max of 191, and that's not if any of them crit. And he only got that way because of Monk's Robe and getting Greater Magic Fang +5 permanently enchanted upon himself. Fun stuff when you got the gold xD
Or if you want the official site, HERE.
Ooooooh I wouldn't say that ;D my own Drow Monk at his height was a horse to be reckoned with. He was only second in DPS to the party's Barbarian which...got really, really ridiculous, especially when the spell casters beefed her size increase and strength increase spells.
My own Monk's damage output, at minimum damage, if all five blows connected, was 120, to a max of 191, and that's not if any of them crit. And he only got that way because of Monk's Robe and getting Greater Magic Fang +5 permanently enchanted upon himself. Fun stuff when you got the gold xD
Monks are great (my personal favorite class), and they can definitely be made capable if you do it right, but one of the things that puts them apart is that in order to make them good you have to have waaaay more system mastery than most other classes.
Would this help? One of many great things about Pathfinder is that Paizo puts near-everything online!
That's the kind of thing I wish I could read Unchained for to fully comprehend how they deal with it.
I did look that over before, but I like having the full book. It's all in the details that may or may not be there and I like being able to read the book so there's no question about things.
I appreciate the link though :D it was the first thing I turned too initially.
Monks are great (my personal favorite class), and they can definitely be made capable if you do it right, but one of the things that puts them apart is that in order to make them good you have to have waaaay more system mastery than most other classes.
Eh, to a degree. Only if you want to be Mr. Trick-Tricks-n-Suplex. Building for damage output is actually pretty simple and actually stops being useful right around 11 to 12, provided you have the robe. Had I kept playing with my group, I would've started specing into Fighter to up his crit chances.
|
I figured out how it is being done. Mythic elemental fist and the mythic feat Titan Strike will get his damage to 2d8. He gets 3 attacks normally and can spend a point of Ki to get 4. This will get 4 attacks at 2d8 for a total of 8d8.
If that's how he's figuring it, then he's built a relatively weak character, a lvl 10 that's only dealing 2d8/hit when performing Elemental fist. And even the Titan Fist actually throws off the calculation, a medium level 10 monk with no adjustments is already doing 1d10 dmg. Once size modifiers (or even a monk robe) kicks in, they are now doing 2d6 or higher multiple of Xd6 I don't know anything that will take the multiple d6 option and increase them to d8's.
The only way I can see the claim working would be if he is saying if all his attacks hit he is rolling 8d8 dmg because he has 1d10 base damage, and is getting a size increase (from enlarge person, or something like titan strike) to go from 1d10 to 2d8 and he gets 3 attacks with a flurry and spends 1 ki point for an extra attack. This gives him 4 attacks at 2d8 each, or 8d8 total.
Addressing OP:
I don't know how the mythic rules interact with a monk specifically, but for non-mythic he is not even close to 8d8 per hit, see above for possibility of 8d8 per round. First you are correct that he does not get to perform a flurry of blows on top of a full attack. So he can either take a Single attack as a standard action, a full attack as a full attack action, or a flurry of blows as a full attack action.
A level 12 Monk of the Four Winds could perform a full attack action, then spend their swift action to slow time, gaining another 3 standard actions (these can not be combined for further full attack actions) but would permit 3 additional attacks on top of a full attack/flurry of blows in a single round. However an Unchained Monk can not be a Monk of the Four Winds. And you stated he's only lvl 10.
As for the damage There is no way for a medium creature to be doing d8 dmg other than the 1d10 + size increase, and that would mean 4 size increases at level 10, HIGHLY UNLIKELY! If he is naturally a large creature then perhaps that can work out, but even still reaching 8d8 makes me think he's potentially stacking additional size increases that should NOT stack. (or is just not doing the dmg increase properly)
The dmg progression tables for medium base go from d8 to 2d6 > 3d6 > 4d6 > 6d6 > 8d6, or 1d10 > 2d8 > 3d8 > 4d8 > 6d8 > 8d8. And even getting up to 8dx is very difficult at level 10 since that would be 4 size increases off normal dmg + Monk robe or 5 size increase off normal dmg without monk robe.
Medium sized Level 10 Unchained Monk + Monk Robes (lvl 15) is 2d6, If he got enlarge person cast on him he's at 3d6.
Here is a link for the Damage Dice Progression Chart for increases in size.
I'll go ahead and type out what he said and it makes even less sense than what he originally said to me. I'm gonna break it up for easier reading.
"--at the 6th level you gain a second full motion, first full motion flurry of blows, my fists deal 2d8 damage for the first hit +8 strength modifier, 2nd attack of flurry of blows 2 d8 and as is stated in the flurry description you add strength again, so first full motion 4d8.
Ok, so First of all "6th level you gain a second full motion" There is no such thing as a full motion, you start using terms incorrectly, or using the wrong terms and things get wrong fast. In 1 round (1 turn) you get 1 move action, 1 standard action, 1 swift action, and can do up to a reasonable number of free actions. You can also combine the Move and standard action into a full attack, OR full round action.
It sounds like he thinks since he can flurry of blows in place of a single attack (levels 1-5) that at level 6 since he gets a second attack when taking a full attack he should get 2 flurry of blows. So he should be able to attack twice for the Full BAB attack, then attack twice for the BAB-5 Attack. Wrong! At levels 1-10 Flurry allows a single extra attack at full BAB when performing a full attack action.
And 16 strength bonus, since im at tenth level i have a second full motion based of my second bab score, so i flurry one more time as a single standard action so i do 4d8 and another 16 strength totallimg 8 d8 damage +32, so to reiterate 2+2+2+2=8 and 8+8+8+8=36 dealt over two full motions which i had gained the second at 6th level."
Again, like you mention it sounds like he wants a separate 'Flurry' or two attacks, for every single attack that is listed on the monk table. That's not how it works.
Additionally, I question the strength bonus, but it is mythic... If his character has a 26 strength then he is getting +8 dmg from stregth on each attack, but that seems less the issue than the number of attacks.
At this point, I question if he really read the rules or not, but maybe you guys can make more sense of this than I can.
Maybe he's read them, maybe not, but he definitely doesn't understand them. Though since he is figuring 8d8 per round, it's certainly possible (he would need some way to increase the size value for his attacks as I mentioned above), he's just doing it wrong. In actuality if the Strength mod is correct he should be able to have a character that's dealing more damage than he is currently doing if he had monk robes, that would make him 3d6+8 per attack.
He should be doing:
3 attacks per flurry.
1 Flurry per round
optional - 1 ki point for 1 extra attack at full BAB
possible - 1 extra attack from haste or haste like effect (Blessing of Fervor).
so 4 attacks per round if spending a Ki Point, or with Haste, and 5 per round if doing both.
And all of this is assuming he does not move more than a 5' step in the round, since he seems to not understand how action economy works in combat he may also think he can move 60' and do all that!
Or if you want the official site, HERE.
On the surface it doesn't seem to be much more different, but I don't know if there's something left out from the book or if I'm just too tired to see it.
Everything you said pretty much nails it, but he never insinuated that he had size changes or anything particularly special. Unfortunately I don't know what gear he had, only that he was level 10, Human, and was supposedly doing 8d8, plus strength, total worth of damage by the time he was done, which is, plainly put, crazy.
In comparison, my Drow Monk at Level 10 had 4 hits and could expend 1 Ki Point to make 5 strikes. Medium Creatures as a Monk do get 1d8 by level 4, but by 10, he should be doing 1d10. That's where it falls apart. Whether normal or Unchained.
And like you said, the only way he could gain three extra hits would be to use Four Winds, but Unchained Monks can't go into Four Winds.
The more I think about it, the more I have to wonder what other miscalculations, or rules levies if the DM was explicitly involved, occurred in this campaign of theirs.
|
|
Everything you said pretty much nails it, but he never insinuated that he had size changes or anything particularly special. Unfortunately I don't know what gear he had, only that he was level 10, Human, and was supposedly doing 8d8, plus strength, total worth of damage by the time he was done, which is, plainly put, crazy.In comparison, my Drow Monk at Level 10 had 4 hits and could expend 1 Ki Point to make 5 strikes. Medium Creatures as a Monk do get 1d8 by level 4, but by 10, he should be doing 1d10. That's where it falls apart. Whether normal or Unchained.
And like you said, the only way he could gain three extra hits would be to use Four Winds, but Unchained Monks can't go into Four Winds.
The more I think about it, the more I have to wonder what other miscalculations, or rules levies if the DM was explicitly involved, occurred in this campaign of theirs.
You said it was a Mythic Campaign, so the Titan Strike Mythic Feat that Mysterious Stranger mentioned would get him the size bonus from 1d10 to 2d8. I think he's close to accurate just doesn't fully understand how flurry of blows works.
Take the time to find out what stats, items, and feats he is using, maybe even point him in the direction for some tweaking.
By level 10 every monk should have Amulet of Mighty Fist, Monk Robes, and Boots of Speed. With those items alone he gets extra to hit and dmg, extra AC and unarmed strike dmg, and should almost always get the haste attack every time he is performing a flurry. geared and applied properly and he can easily go from a potential 8d8+32 per round while using the wrong mechanics to a potential 15d6+45 per round with the right mechanics!
Or if you want the official site, HERE.On the surface it doesn't seem to be much more different, but I don't know if there's something left out from the book or if I'm just too tired to see it.
They should pretty much the same. The main difference is the PRD is run by Paizo, and contains everything word for word from the book, whereas the d20pfsrd will also include stuff from the various player companions and in some cases third-party content (everything should be labeled with a source, so if you're paying attention that's not a problem). The d20pfsrd also tends to post relavent FAQs on a sidebar to help you out.
The PRD has a lot less noise and is "official", but the d20pfsrd has far more content and is usually up-to-date sooner. However, it is technically run by a 3rd party.They're both great resources, but the PRD is what you want if you want it to be Paizo's fault when you get something wrong. No pictures, though.
Unlikely. We're probably not on speaking terms right now.
Nuuuuuu!!! I needs mah pictures! D:
|
|
Assuming it's him potentially not wanting to speak to you, you could try to start it up by just saying "hey, lets take some time to look at your character together, because I think I have some ideas that can actually make it even better than what we were discussing." Then you can audit what he's doing wrong at the same time you're making recommendations on how to do it right and still improve the character overall.
If it's you not wanting to deal with him again... yeah not much I can help with that.