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Bleeding Attacks helps. There's always Step Up for keeping yourself in their face. Ninja Trick: Pressure Points let's you put pressure on the average spellcaster (who will have either a low strength or dex, or even both). If you areally high enough in level, consider pairing the Unlock Ki advanced talent (Magic Tactics Toolbox) with Vanishing Trick to avoid being directly targeted while you move into position.
Mainly max out initiative and similar things (e.g. surprise attack talent) to get the first strike in. The bleeding attack (more concentration checks) & poison use talents might be good. If the rogue is not the unchained variety, or if you're willing to allow it anyway, the Without a Trace talent would be useful against blasters.
The sanctified rogue archetype for better saves might be an idea.
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To shut down casters you do one or more of the following.
1. Stun lock them.
2. Grapple them.
3. Maintain readied actions to strike them when they cast. Bonus;getting sneak attack damage can really reinforce that tactic.
4. And the one guaranteed method... Kill them.
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What level are you looking for?
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Debilitating Injury (the level 4 rogue power) to stop them from 5ft-stepping away is a very nice start.
But the true "counter to casters" class is probably the grappling-oriented monk, because grappling stops somatic components utterly and forces a hefty concentration check to do other spells (like Dimension Door). Also because monks (tetori) come with good saves.
I think one thing is simply high stealth arcane casters especially aren't going to beat your stealth with their perception, coupled with step up you can chase them around once you get up behind em.
Unless they have blindsight/sense which would be bad for you
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You need a plan for casters who cast defensively, because Combat Casting isn't that rare on NPCs.
Step Up is definitely cute for NPCs who try to step out of flank, although I prefer using Debilitating Injury for that. But to really make that work you'd want a method for ensuring you get SA as easily as possible, such as Gang Up.
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And don't neglect the Disguise skill - if you can't be invisible, you can at least not look like a threat.
I don't think you can present a single tactic, trick or build to counter spellcasters as there's a great deal of variety between them. A grappled witch can use hexed just fine for example and there's no surprising a diviner.
It takes a while to get there but the Dispelling Strike major rogue talent can be quite effective versus spell casters. Also the major talent that does strength damage combined with Strength poison- a wizard who can't carry his own spell component pouch is a sad sight.
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because grappling stops somatic components utterlyyou have to be careful reading here, because while grappLING stops somatic components, having the grappLED condition does not(still hefty concentration check though)
it's especially misleading if you're reading it from SRD rather than PRD.
Interesting, that actually reconciles a contradiction someone found ages ago where the Combat chapter says a "grapplING" character cannot cast somatic components, while the Magic chapter only says that about Pinned. I think quite often we refer to both attacker and defender in a grapple as being "grappling", but in this case it really just means the attacker.
I learned something new :)
Even so, the concentration DC imposed by grappling can be one of the scariest ones (especially with gargantuan constrictor snakes). But rogues don't have any special talent for it.
Maybe Strength poison? Although it's particularly the PC wizards who dump Strength to the ground, NPCs tend to be more even in that regard. Even so, not many of them can argue with purple worm poison.
Stealing a mage's material components is a good idea. No spell component pouch = no spells for many types of casters. Sorcerers, psychics, and other spontaneous casters can still give you trouble.
Being able to use Vanishing Trick (non-unchained Rogue Ki Pool or Eldritch Scoundrel) means you can be standing next to a caster when they cast without them knowing it; you can potentially even be standing next to a caster with an attack readied without them knowing it, so that they provoke, and then eat a readied attack, and then provoke again if they try to flee.
I quite like Weapon Master 3/ Scout Rogue for the fact that you can basically create a Rogue on combat-stims with plentiful feats left for Extra Ki. Good WIS (Dual Talent Human or other racial bonus?) plus a WIS item plus a couple Extra Ki means it's a decent pool.
Eldritch Heritage: Fey lets you grab Laughing Touch, which means if you can touch 'em, they ain't casting that round. Conductive Weapon or Sorcerous Strike means you can do it with a melee attack. Improved Eldritch Heritage: Fey can give you some Improved Invisibility.
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At higher levels, it probably won't matter, because you'll likely never be able to plane-travel, kill the original and not a clone, or beat the wizard in initiative, or fight a wizard clone in the original wizard body.
Low level, you buy the dreaded Black Lotus Poison and sneak up on the bastards. It's likely to kill them, your dex is likely to be very high, and a blow dart to the neck is thematic. Remember, your greatest weapon as a rogue is not your class abilities, it's your roleplaying talents and money. With money, you can overcome every obstacle.
If you wanna make lots of money, I suggest taking the Guild Poisoner Prestige class. You also make lots of poison on the daily. Oh, and steal things, make a profit, and make some wizard punks dead.
Late game, you'll at least kill the clones and you'll slowly win the money war. But if you let your enemy get to these levels, you're no longer surprising them, they are surprising you. Also! There's a trait that allows you to be immune to one mundane poison. You better believe being immune to inhaled black lotus smoke bombs is the s!&!. In a good sense.
Edit: Sorry, I wasn't clear about the plane-travel bit. When you go about killing wizards, other wizards are less likely to assist you (realistically speaking) in your plane-travelness. But money, in the gaming sense, can get you anything. And rogues don't really benefit from magical weapons, or armor, or stat increases really.
But run around with some pretty neat magical defenses, and black lotus on the cheap, then you'll be a contender. Once you start making bank, everything will be fine.
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Yeah, once you have leadership, and all your followers are helping you out in pumping out black lotus, you can get crazy money. Even more if your DM is a silly old coot and lets you sell the poison at full price. That's 2/3s profit! So good, to be the most decked out character in a month of time skipping.
I know I talked about money a lot, but to kill a wizard, I find it best to do what the wizard does, and make him roll dice instead of you. If you watch a low level wizard with his...maybe +3 fort save, try to make a DC 20 save, twice, or lose 1d6 con, you're probably watching him die.
Or you can do the cheap, and much less effective method, of straight up attacking him. Also note, that a wizard has to rest 8 hours for his class stuff to kick back in. A rogue has no need for 8 hours of straight rest other than fatigue levels, so you can stay up late, sneak into the wizard's camp, and stab him with your da--ha, just kidding. Daggers are for cutting ropes, not people. Use a pickaxe if you wanna Coup de grace wizards.
If you're a pimp-hand rogue, use your fist and punch a hole into his chest while he sleeps. Sounds dirty, but you're a rogue. I'm sorry, you're not a paladin.
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The problem with this concept is it is putting the weakest class in the game against the strongest class. Rogues have bad fortitude and will saves, and no magic to counter the spell caster. In a straight up fight they are going to be hard pressed to even survive, let alone win. Doing so is also attacking the spell caster at his strongest point using your weakest.
The only way for a rogue to deal with a spell caster is to attack him at his weakest while you are at your strongest. First you need to be the one in control of the environment. Lure the spell caster into an area that put him at a disadvantage and give you the advantage. Never attack him in his own base of operation. Don’t allow him time to prepare or you are history. Better yet get him to prepare for the wrong situation. Use disposable allies to engage him and use up his resources. And finally attack him while he is distracted and cannot act.
The big problem with using the strategy above is that unless the whole party are playing rogue like characters it does not work with the rest of the party. You pretty much have to do this by yourself. The reason you are using disposable allies is you expect them to be killed. You also be willing to wait for exactly the right time to attack. It may take days or even months to arrange the situation. None of this really works well in a group situation.
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That Mysterious Stranger is super correct. More correct then you will ever know. First of all, you don't wanna do the black lotus trick around your friends (unless they keep skipping you on sellable loot), you don't wanna let the wizard know you have black lotus smoke bombs, and you definitely don't wanna fight the wizard like some chivalrous knight, out in the broad daylight, mono-ah-mono.
It has to be you, you solo-adventurer you, that kills wizards. You may get a couple, but once they get to higher levels spells and fight you in bodies that are immune to basically whatever your class can throw at it, you may as well pick up a new hobby, like real estate.
I played a mythic rogue, level 10, and let me tell you, mythic doesn't give much in the way to the rogue class. Except for the setting-breaking flawless lying, but that won't kill wizards on its own. I was even a Talented Rogue, which is a build-a-bear rogue from Rogue Genius Games. Had a party member who was CE, Mythic Lich Witch who is immune to everything I could attack him with. When your party of good peeps or neutral peeps adventure to take out evil things, with everyone being blind to the evil thing in the party...quarrels happen, or can happen. A rogue is very little without a backup plan!
So I bought an ion stone that gave me 50 charges of 8th level or lower spell immunity (Lavender and Green Ellipsoid), bought all the defensive items to effortlessly pass his hex DC and had a fort save of +20 something and will save to match. And made a teleportation trap into a force cage effect with a silence field around it. Not that I'm 100% certain that my trap would work, but I bragged about making money often enough so that the player knew I was loaded, and I bragged about sending teleporters to the deep space, or a black hole, in-character.
So if you can't defeat them, you bluff the s~%@ outta them and convince them you can defeat them. It's like the same thing and nobody dies.
you use rumormonger to say that he's dead and you killed him and after some time everyone believes it right? The wizard will either have a mental breakdown cause he's dead, or decide he must be someone else. ;)
Here's an idea. Not flawless, but then no idea which pitches one of the weakest classes in the game against the stronger ones will be.
Take the carnivalist archetype and improved familiar (dweomercat cub). Keep the cub concealed on you & when you're targeted it can hopefully dimension door out and claw the caster somewhere sensitive.
Warning: works on area effect spells but not those which target individual creatures.
The Step Up feat chain works wonders, I suggest trying it out. Disrupt and Spellbreaker are Fighter-only feats but if you open them up they can be useful as well, along with the UC Rogue getting the ability to prevent five-foot steps. You need to go first or you're probably going to die, so you want that as well, and getting things like bleed damage or ability damage (through poison or other means) to their weak ability scores is another good way to deal with them.
Find a way to get to them to hit them, too; Invisibility and the like are mostly a must.
Not if it is straight rogue, and caster is played well.
Best chance chance is the leadership feat and taking caster to even the odds in that case.
UMD and scrolls of Silence or, if you are high enough level, Antimagic Field can't hurt either.
Rogue is fantastic against most magic users, they have far more approach options and a lot of mundane stealth/disguise cannot be easily overcome with magic and if the wizard is preparing his spells specifically to counter you he is not preparing spells to fry you, making you quite the annoyance for his purposes. Tapping yourself with nondetection and silence is outstandingly effective.
It’s actually quite easy for a wizard to be ready for trouble without wasting his prepared spells. A couple of permanent low level spells pretty much shuts down a rogue. A permanent Mental Alarm spell will let the wizard know you are there no matter what you stealth roll is. Since it is an abjuration spell instead of a divination spell things like nondetection do not affect it in any way. It also ignores silence. Also figure the wizard is going to use permanency on detect magic and see invisibility. Spells like teleport of dimension door allow the wizard to escape if things go badly.
At low levels a rogue may be able to deal with wizard, but once you get to medium or above level it will require extraordinary planning for you to have any chance. After the wizard gets 5th level spells the only way you are going to have a chance is with the strategy I gave in my previous post.
I'm pretty sure a rogue can remain hidden from your little alarm spell by kiting that 20foot space, and even then you don't get to know where it is you only get a binary indication, hence 'Alarm'. I think the spell you're looking for is Mage's Faithful Hound and with a few phantom treats it can be dealt with.
Also you overlook the potential of what it is you're trying to protect yourself from. The rogue isn't going to look the same or act the same in every encounter, nor will they approach them same. In almost all the cases, the rogue is permanently the watcher, on the other side of the one-way mirror. All the wizard can do is hope he has prepared the right thing and the right time and get away to plan another day.
So unless you've permanently affixed your wizard in his ivory tower then you really don't have defences against what the rogue can imagine- and if that's the case aren't you already his prisoner?
Extraordinary planning is my favourite planning and hunting wizards is always the best game. This of course is dependant on how the GM rules mundane solutions to magical effects, I've played in games where throwing flour on the floor doesn't help with invisible creatures and using a rope is impossible because there's no skill associated with it- Ah the joy of playing a martial, you don't get to have nice things.
If the wizard cast the alarm spell on an item like say a rock and carries the rock with him then when you’re trying to sneak up on the mage just got a whole lot harder. Now when you get within 20’ of him he knows that someone is there. Yes he may not know exactly where you are but he knows you are there. You can be invisible with a stealth of +40 and he still knows you are there. This is only one example of what a wizard can do.
You talk about disguise as if the rogue is the only one who can do this. A wizard can change his shape and turn into a completely different creature. He can also do things like use magic jar to possess people and attack you in a body that he does not care if it is killed. To make it worse he can still cast all his spells while in the other body. How well does the rogue do when his wife casts a spell on him when he is not expecting it.
When you attack a high level wizard you are attacking someone who is probably smarter than Albert Einstein.
Level 14+ Phantom Thief is terrible at combat, but can use scrolls of Antimagic Field, followed by at-will non-magical Suggestion on casters, plus one-round diplomacy.
It takes a while to get there but the Dispelling Strike major rogue talent can be quite effective versus spell casters. Also the major talent that does strength damage combined with Strength poison- a wizard who can't carry his own spell component pouch is a sad sight.
Actually, that removes the lowest-level buff on the target, so probably stuff like Mage Armor or Shield. Good for AC penalties but not for the most dangerous buffs.
When you attack a high level wizard you are attacking someone who is probably smarter than Albert Einstein.
If the GM is. (*sob* -- that's a comment on my own fledgling GM skills, not the OP's. I'm learning, though.)
To the OP: WHY does the player want to focus on anti-caster warfare? I assume you have a lot of them in your game as foes, or it would make the game terribly boring for the player. Do you give the casters martial bodyguards? (Someone for the rogue to target while his terribly non-sneaky teammates -- those that foul up a lot of the strategies outlined above, as the posters themselves pointed out -- take out the caster.) Or is your player saying he doesn't want to go after the bodyguards you already provide?
When you attack a high level wizard you are attacking someone who is probably smarter than Albert Einstein.
And when you attack a high level rogue you are attacking someone who is probably more deadly than Eugen Heydrich. :)
That statement could be applied to 99% of 20th level characters.
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And when you attack a high level rogue you are attacking someone who is probably more deadly than Eugen Heydrich. :)When you attack a high level wizard you are attacking someone who is probably smarter than Albert Einstein.
What? Come on guys, he's not even a fighter! And we all know how the strongest martial class ever made has bonus feats. Just check out all the cool threads showcasing how easy a fighter can kill a high level wizard's clone!
Also, that alarm thing is really cool. Combine that with Contingency this or that, and suddenly melee combat no longer exists as a rogue option. I mean, I love playing rogues, but when the lich wizard's touch permanently paralyzes and he's immune to poison and death effects, and he doesn't sleep, you just gotta call a truce.
Pretty sure a wizard can extend the alarm radius to 40 feet with metamagic. So no sneak attack, ever.