Sorry I don't think I've made myself clear. Youve answered the opposite question.Orfamay - to be clear, is the anything you think Wizards can do that Fighter's shouldn't be able to do?Certainly. For example, over-the-top feats of strength (piling Ossa upon Pelion to reach the heighs of Olympus) are probably best reserved for the martials. I wouldn't expect mages to be able to carry the sky on their shoulders. And anything cool that wizards do should deplete their magical reserves, so even if they were able to cast a spell and raise a ship over their heads, they'd need to put it down again shortly as the spell ran out.
I'm also perfectly fine with infinitely-leveled wizards and infinitely-leveled fighters being indistinguishable, but wizards get some things earlier, but some things later. We already see this, for example -- an infinity-level wizard has exactly the same BAB and saves as an infinity-level fighter, but until that point, the wizard typically has lousy Fort saves and attack bonuses by comparison. I'm perfectly fine with it being much harder (meaning, requiring a much higher level) for a fighter to move thousands of miles in an instant (while a wizard can do it at 9th level with teleport), but it wouldn't be an unreasonable capstone for a Dex fighter who has been focusing on mobility for twenty levels.
No, I haven't. Re-read my answer, please.
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Mythic Adventures, if it removed so many of the raw damage buffs would be a good starting point for this.
Long range mobility? Wizards can teleport. Fighters can Seven League Leap.
Taking on flying enemies with melee attacks? Wizards can grant flight, Fighters can Aerial Assault. Granted this one isn't a useful, but with a slight buff (instead of jumping on a charge, it lets you jump as a Free or Swift and hang in the air, descending at the end of your turn) it could help in both matters of combat and the "How do we get across this 100 foot chasm" problems.
Moving on from that, doing stuff like "Dominating Saruman" would be a good buff to skills. Sort of like skill unlocks but the good stuff isn't as severely gated behind levels. Wizards can Dominate by 9th level, by 10th the Fighter should be able to Intimidate someone into being an ally temporarily. This would be different, but similar in effect. Both can be done as a Standard. One requires a Will save, the other a skill check. The skill check is EASIER (Intimidate DCs are shockingly low so even with a fair -5 or -10 penalty an Intimidate specced character could nail that easily) but could be balanced by being shorter duration (minute, 10 minutes per level or some such, and the character is permanently Hostile afterward).
There are plenty of ways to make martials achieve the same RESULTS as a caster without just making them casters. It just requires actual work and thought into making them that way.
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When people talk about 'buffing martials', what exactly are they suggesting?
For me, acts of extraordinary prowess. Lifting the castle gate and tossing it aside, darkening the sky by firing so many arrows, catching a fireball, stopping a spell from being cast by cutting the words of a caster, charging into someone and pushing them through a solid stone wall, attacking with such might that incoming projectiles are pushed off course, leaping into the sky in order to impale an enemy with their spear from above, spinning a staff so quickly that it provides cover, closing to attack range in the blink of an eye, and at the end being able to cut a god, should a god stand in their way.
Or bull rush, awesome blow, shocking weapon, lunge.
I watched the Alonne fight and what I saw was dodge, lunge and occassionally a power attack?
Okay, you're right, these aren't exactly the best way to show what I'm trying to exhibit.
Let me instead grab from the other source I mentioned, Path of War.
Here are some maneuvers from the Piercing Thunder Discipline which is built around charging with polearms/spears. Maneuver Levels are equivalent to spell levels for what levels you can choose them at, or at least very close. Also findable on the SRD here: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/piercing-thun der-maneuvers
9th Level
Full-Round Action
As a master of the Piercing Thunder discipline, you can make a devastating charge across the battlefield, striking all in your way with razor precision and unstoppable killing force. When you initiate this maneuver, you make a charge attack, moving up to twice your speed in a straight line as normal. Unlike a normal charge attack, you do not designate an opponent, and do not need to end your movement within reach of an opponent. In addition, your movement ignores difficult terrain and intervening creatures, and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Rather than making an attack at the end of your charge, your strike targets every opponent who was caught in your path; treat your movement as a line-shaped effect for determining who is affected. Each opponent caught within the line takes damage as if you had hit them with an attack with a weapon you are wielding (including damage from magical properties or other bonuses), and must succeed at a Reflex save (DC 19 + your initiation modifier) or take an additional 15d6 points of damage. A successful save halves the additional damage, but does not negate the damage from your attack. Use the same damage roll for each creature. This strike can only be initiated with a discipline weapon.
8th level
Standard Action
By leveling a heavy blow from your powerful weapon, you strike so hard to as to bring your opponent to their knees with this strike. Make a melee attack. If it hits, it deals weapon damage as normal plus an additional 12d6 points of damage, and you can make a bull rush attempt against the target as a free action. This bull rush attempt does not provoke an attack of opportunity, and you gain a bonus on your combat maneuver check equal to 1/2 your initiator level. If your bull rush attempt is successful, the target is knocked prone at the end of their movement.
7th level
Full-round Action
With a tremendous leap into the air, you come crashing down upon your enemy with the force of the gods themselves. Make a melee attack, using an Acrobatics check in place of your attack roll. Any bonuses and penalties that would be applied to a normal attack roll, such as weapon enhancements, spell effects, or the penalties for fighting with two weapons, are applied to the skill check as well. If your attack hits, it deals weapon damage as normal plus an additional 35 points of damage, and the target must succeed at a Fortitude save (DC 17 + your initiation modifier) or drop any held items, as though they had been disarmed.
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Except for the part where none of those things can be done, sure. Path of War martials can do it, but somehow I don't think you meant them.
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Sounds like a high level pathfinder martial to me.When people talk about 'buffing martials', what exactly are they suggesting?For me, acts of extraordinary prowess. Lifting the castle gate and tossing it aside, darkening the sky by firing so many arrows, catching a fireball, stopping a spell from being cast by cutting the words of a caster, charging into someone and pushing them through a solid stone wall, attacking with such might that incoming projectiles are pushed off course, leaping into the sky in order to impale an enemy with their spear from above, spinning a staff so quickly that it provides cover, closing to attack range in the blink of an eye, and at the end being able to cut a god, should a god stand in their way.
Some of it, yes. I don't know any way that a martial can catch a fireball (and prevent it from going off, or even return it to the caster). I don't know any way that a martial can use a melee weapon like a staff to provide cover. I don't know any way that a martial can move thousands of feet in a single round, or produce a darkness effect simply by throwing rocks or arrows into the air.
Indeed, even pushing someone through a stone wall is questionable. As far as I know, bull rushing someone won't damage the surface your opponent hits.
Those definitely sound like things a high-level fighter should be able to do, but I don't think they actually can.
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So basically, you agree with me. None of those things actually do what was said, they just give the bargain brand version of it.
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Except for the part where none of those things can be done, sure. Path of War martials can do it, but somehow I don't think you meant them.Depends on how picky you get, for example shield of swings gives you a +4 shield bonus to AC, which is the same bonus you get from cover.
But doesn't actually provide "cover," you know, if you need a bonus to a saving throw or something.
'Darkening the sky' with arrows isn't a mechanic, but shooting 7 or so arrows in under 6 seconds isn't too shabby.
But doesn't actually provide "darkness," you know, if you need to hide or something.
Just for examples.
... of things that totally f--king fail to work. Just like martials in Pathfinder.
Sorry I don't think I've made myself clear. Youve answered the opposite question.Orfamay - to be clear, is the anything you think Wizards can do that Fighter's shouldn't be able to do?Certainly. For example, over-the-top feats of strength (piling Ossa upon Pelion to reach the heighs of Olympus) are probably best reserved for the martials. I wouldn't expect mages to be able to carry the sky on their shoulders. And anything cool that wizards do should deplete their magical reserves, so even if they were able to cast a spell and raise a ship over their heads, they'd need to put it down again shortly as the spell ran out.
I'm also perfectly fine with infinitely-leveled wizards and infinitely-leveled fighters being indistinguishable, but wizards get some things earlier, but some things later. We already see this, for example -- an infinity-level wizard has exactly the same BAB and saves as an infinity-level fighter, but until that point, the wizard typically has lousy Fort saves and attack bonuses by comparison. I'm perfectly fine with it being much harder (meaning, requiring a much higher level) for a fighter to move thousands of miles in an instant (while a wizard can do it at 9th level with teleport), but it wouldn't be an unreasonable capstone for a Dex fighter who has been focusing on mobility for twenty levels.
No, I haven't. Re-read my answer, please.
Sorry I'm not clear...
Q: Is there anything a wizard can do, that fighter's shouldn't be able to do?
A: - Over the top feats of strength are best reserved for martials.
- Mages shouldnt be able to carry the sky on their shoulders
- also fine with wizards and fighters being indistiguashable but when abilities are received would vary.
So just to be clear. You told me things as wizard shouldn't do (the reverse of my question). But no, you don't believe there is anything a wizard can do that a fighter shouldn't?
Sorry I don't think I've made myself clear. Youve answered the opposite question.Orfamay - to be clear, is the anything you think Wizards can do that Fighter's shouldn't be able to do?Certainly. For example, over-the-top feats of strength (piling Ossa upon Pelion to reach the heighs of Olympus) are probably best reserved for the martials. I wouldn't expect mages to be able to carry the sky on their shoulders. And anything cool that wizards do should deplete their magical reserves, so even if they were able to cast a spell and raise a ship over their heads, they'd need to put it down again shortly as the spell ran out.
I'm also perfectly fine with infinitely-leveled wizards and infinitely-leveled fighters being indistinguishable, but wizards get some things earlier, but some things later. We already see this, for example -- an infinity-level wizard has exactly the same BAB and saves as an infinity-level fighter, but until that point, the wizard typically has lousy Fort saves and attack bonuses by comparison. I'm perfectly fine with it being much harder (meaning, requiring a much higher level) for a fighter to move thousands of miles in an instant (while a wizard can do it at 9th level with teleport), but it wouldn't be an unreasonable capstone for a Dex fighter who has been focusing on mobility for twenty levels.
No, I haven't. Re-read my answer, please.
Sorry I'm not clear...
Q: Is there anything a wizard can do, that fighter's shouldn't be able to do?
A: - Over the top feats of strength are best reserved for martials.
- Mages shouldnt be able to carry the sky on their shoulders
- also fine with wizards and fighters being indistiguashable but when abilities are received would vary.So just to be clear. No, you don't believe there is anything a wizard can do that a fighter shouldn't?
Just to be clear. Re-read my answer.
Sounds like a high level pathfinder martial to me.When people talk about 'buffing martials', what exactly are they suggesting?For me, acts of extraordinary prowess. Lifting the castle gate and tossing it aside, darkening the sky by firing so many arrows, catching a fireball, stopping a spell from being cast by cutting the words of a caster, charging into someone and pushing them through a solid stone wall, attacking with such might that incoming projectiles are pushed off course, leaping into the sky in order to impale an enemy with their spear from above, spinning a staff so quickly that it provides cover, closing to attack range in the blink of an eye, and at the end being able to cut a god, should a god stand in their way.Some of it, yes. I don't know any way that a martial can catch a fireball (and prevent it from going off, or even return it to the caster). I don't know any way that a martial can use a melee weapon like a staff to provide cover. I don't know any way that a martial can move thousands of feet in a single round, or produce a darkness effect simply by throwing rocks or arrows into the air.
Indeed, even pushing someone through a stone wall is questionable. As far as I know, bull rushing someone won't damage the surface your opponent hits.
Those definitely sound like things a high-level fighter should be able to do, but I don't think they actually can.
I'm not sure how valid it is to complain that martials can't do things for which Pathfinder has no actual mechanic for anyone to do.
Why can't wizards build a nuclear bomb?
... Anzyr, please tell Ozy about how a Wizard can build a suitcase nuke.
Just to be...Sorry I don't think I've made myself clear. Youve answered the opposite question.Orfamay - to be clear, is the anything you think Wizards can do that Fighter's shouldn't be able to do?Certainly. For example, over-the-top feats of strength (piling Ossa upon Pelion to reach the heighs of Olympus) are probably best reserved for the martials. I wouldn't expect mages to be able to carry the sky on their shoulders. And anything cool that wizards do should deplete their magical reserves, so even if they were able to cast a spell and raise a ship over their heads, they'd need to put it down again shortly as the spell ran out.
I'm also perfectly fine with infinitely-leveled wizards and infinitely-leveled fighters being indistinguishable, but wizards get some things earlier, but some things later. We already see this, for example -- an infinity-level wizard has exactly the same BAB and saves as an infinity-level fighter, but until that point, the wizard typically has lousy Fort saves and attack bonuses by comparison. I'm perfectly fine with it being much harder (meaning, requiring a much higher level) for a fighter to move thousands of miles in an instant (while a wizard can do it at 9th level with teleport), but it wouldn't be an unreasonable capstone for a Dex fighter who has been focusing on mobility for twenty levels.
No, I haven't. Re-read my answer, please.
Sorry I'm not clear...
Q: Is there anything a wizard can do, that fighter's shouldn't be able to do?
A: - Over the top feats of strength are best reserved for martials.
- Mages shouldnt be able to carry the sky on their shoulders
- also fine with wizards and fighters being indistiguashable but when abilities are received would vary.So just to be clear. No, you don't believe there is anything a wizard can do that a fighter shouldn't?
I read it twice and politely requested clarification. Unfortunately if you can't clearly communicate your thoughts I'll move on instead of being interested in your answer.
I read it twice and politely requested clarification.
.... which I refused to provide, since the answer I gave was complete and accurate.
No, examples that failed to take into account that you're going far beyond literature and into the ridiculous.
Darkness...from arrows...
Actually, that's one is straight out of literature, specifically Herodotus. (Histories, 7.226)
So, people were effectively blind, and not just from getting arrows in their eyes? Care to quote?Actually, that's one is straight out of literature, specifically Herodotus.No, examples that failed to take into account that you're going far beyond literature and into the ridiculous.
Darkness...from arrows...
Citation provided.
No, examples that failed to take into account that you're going far beyond literature and into the ridiculous.
Darkness...from arrows...
Yeah.
Hmm, almost like Casters really.
... Anzyr, please tell Ozy about how a Wizard can build a suitcase nuke.Sounds like a high level pathfinder martial to me.When people talk about 'buffing martials', what exactly are they suggesting?For me, acts of extraordinary prowess. Lifting the castle gate and tossing it aside, darkening the sky by firing so many arrows, catching a fireball, stopping a spell from being cast by cutting the words of a caster, charging into someone and pushing them through a solid stone wall, attacking with such might that incoming projectiles are pushed off course, leaping into the sky in order to impale an enemy with their spear from above, spinning a staff so quickly that it provides cover, closing to attack range in the blink of an eye, and at the end being able to cut a god, should a god stand in their way.Some of it, yes. I don't know any way that a martial can catch a fireball (and prevent it from going off, or even return it to the caster). I don't know any way that a martial can use a melee weapon like a staff to provide cover. I don't know any way that a martial can move thousands of feet in a single round, or produce a darkness effect simply by throwing rocks or arrows into the air.
Indeed, even pushing someone through a stone wall is questionable. As far as I know, bull rushing someone won't damage the surface your opponent hits.
Those definitely sound like things a high-level fighter should be able to do, but I don't think they actually can.
I'm not sure how valid it is to complain that martials can't do things for which Pathfinder has no actual mechanic for anyone to do.
Why can't wizards build a nuclear bomb?
The primary method is to have minion with a readied action to cast greater dispel magic area version on the runes or that acts on your initiative, either due to being a summon or having the benefit of the battlemind link spell. The minion must be one that is guaranteed to fail the dispel check, which isn't hard if you push your caster level up with Orange Prism Ioun Stone/Death Knell/Bead of Karma/etc. A good choice for this minion is a Nalfeshnee Demon.
The Dispel needs to be from a minion because you always succeed at dispelling your own spells. Also, even the Nalfeshnee uses Greater Dispel Magic at it's CL of 12th, at most it can hit a Dispel Check of 32, which is insufficient to dispel your Explosive Runes since it must 11+ your CL (which with Orange Ioun Stone and Bead of Karma is a minimum of a 36).
To ensure successful delivery of the Explosive Rune bomb, make sure you keep it in something prior to use. Remember being inside a bag blocks line of effect, which will prevent opponents from blowing you up with Greater Dispel Magic. To guarantee delivery, use Time Stop, place the Explosive Rune bomb directly in front of the target to qualify for "close enough to read" and deny the target a saving throw. Move away (using spells if necessary) before time resumes, watch the readied action go off, enjoy as the target takes copious amounts of no save force damage.
Explosive Runes does allow for SR, but SR is honestly speaking a joke and even if your SR penetration isn't "Yes", thanks to the sheer number of runes your guaranteed many many d6's. In order to avoid globe of invulnerability, make sure some Explosive Runes are Heightened. In order to avoid Spell Immunity, make sure some Explosive Runes are actually Limited Wish/Wish/Miracle duplicating Explosive Runes. In order to just really really screw someone in particular, make some of the Explosive Runes Dazing. Maximize other Explosive Runes to taste.
At lower levels, Book of Harms allows you to maximize Explosive Runes during downtime and they can then be delivered to the target via Earth Elementals. Have the Earth Elementals move next to the target and then read the Explosive Rune to deal amazing damage at low levels.
You didn't actually say what, if anything, a 20th level wizard should be able to do that a 20th level fighter should not.I read it twice and politely requested clarification..... which I refused to provide, since the answer I gave was complete and accurate.
Well, now, that would be a different question, wouldn't it?
Really? You want to actually provide a 'darkness effect', from arrows?Can you show me anywhere in literature that supports any such nonsensical thing?
There's this comic book called 300, you've probably never heard of it.
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I read it twice and politely requested clarification..... which I refused to provide, since the answer I gave was complete and accurate.
This post is as surreal as some of the suggestions in this thread. lol.
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So basically, you agree with me. None of those things actually do what was said, they just give the bargain brand version of it.Again, you didn't provide mechanics, you asked for flavor and I provided it. Some of it does exactly what you want, STR check to tear off castle gate. Some of it comes so close that your complaint is just nit-picking (shield of swings), and some of it is just simply asking for mechanics that Pathfinder doesn't have. Period.
I consider the last complaint not very relevant to the discussion.
I asked for nothing, and the flavor doesn't even match. Providing cover with a Tower Shield is not the same as catching a Fireball ad throwing it back at the caster. You cannot even flavor it as such without taking severe liberties to the point that you may as well just say "My Fighter totally makes a demiplane...uhhh, it can't do anything and you can't access it, but I totally did".
And why would we be talking about just flavor in a discussion of how to make martials DO THINGS anyway? That doesn't make any sense, you know it doesn't make any sense, you're just trying to be pedantic and nitpicky because you don't like the discussion topic.
... Anzyr, please tell Ozy about how a Wizard can build a suitcase nuke.
Why can't wizards build a nuclear bomb?
The primary method is to have minion with a readied action to cast greater dispel magic area version on the runes or that acts on your initiative, either due to being a summon or having the benefit of the battlemind link spell. The minion must be one that is guaranteed to fail the dispel check, which isn't hard if you push your caster level up with Orange Prism Ioun Stone/Death Knell/Bead of Karma/etc. A good choice for this minion is a Nalfeshnee Demon.
The Dispel needs to be from a minion because you always succeed at dispelling your own spells. Also, even the Nalfeshnee uses Greater Dispel Magic at it's CL of 12th, at most it can hit a Dispel Check of 32, which is insufficient to dispel your Explosive Runes since it must 11+ your CL (which with Orange Ioun Stone and Bead of Karma is a minimum of a 36).
To ensure successful delivery of the Explosive Rune bomb, make sure you keep it in something prior to use. Remember being inside a bag blocks line of effect, which will prevent opponents from blowing you up with Greater Dispel Magic. To guarantee delviery, use Time Stop), place the Explosive Rune bomb directly in front of the target to qualify for "close enough to read" and deny the target a saving throw. Move away (using spells if necessary) before time resumes, watch the readied action go off, enjoy as the target takes copious amounts of no save force damage.
Explosive Runes does allow for SR, but SR is honestly speaking a joke and even if your SR penetration isn't "Yes", thanks to the sheer number of runes your guaranteed many many d6's. In order to avoid globe of invulnerability, make sure some Explosive Runes are Heightened. In order to avoid Spell Immunity, make sure some Explosive Runes are actually Limited Wish/Wish/Miracle duplicating Explosive Runes. In order to just really really screw someone in particular, make some of the Explosive Runes Dazing. Maximize other Explosive Runes to taste.
At lower levels, Book of Harms allows you to maximize Explosive Runes during downtime and they can then be delivered to the target via Earth Elementals. Have the Earth Elementals move next to the target and then read the Explosive Rune to deal amazing damage at low levels.
Thank you. :)
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Well, now, that would be a different question, wouldn't it?
I've mainly been on your side for this thread... but no. That's the same question that was asked.
Well, now, that would be a different question, wouldn't it?You didn't actually say what, if anything, a 20th level wizard should be able to do that a 20th level fighter should not.I read it twice and politely requested clarification..... which I refused to provide, since the answer I gave was complete and accurate.Only in specific verbiage rather than intent.
Do you have an answer?
Yes, I do, and I have no intention of providing it under duress. I suggest that you re-read my answer to The-Sword as well.
You know, with all the people talking about how high level Pathfinder play should only ever be Saitama-esque dudes with flashy, planet-shaking superpowers, it got me thinking: a few pages back, we in the M/CD crowd kept on crowing about how--looking at how hitpoints scale--a high level Fighter could easily survive a terminal velocity fall. In fact, we kept harping on the math on that over and over to make our point (me included).
Well, IMHO, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Let's throw a Balor out of an airplane.
(After hitting him with Hold Monster and Dimensional Anchor, of course. Wouldn't want the subject messing up the experiment by trying to run away.)
20d6 averages to 75 damage. Take off 15 for his DR, leaves us with somewhere in the neighborhood 50 to his actual hitpoints shaved off for a given fall. So hey, he certainly survived, right?
Right, but it was absolutely a noticeable hit. That's over 10% of his max HP gone. Seven or eight more hits with that level of force, and this Balor is going to be in serious trouble. Which means that if your character is killing a Balor in one or two rounds of full attacks, then you've got about a (vaguely) rough parity going on in terms of the damage delivered by the individual blows to the individual falls.
So to those of you who are getting on The Sword's case for having the temerity to want to play to level 20 without his characters' strikes necessarily being able to wreck the local ecology, or other crazy stuff like that, my question would be this: about how many ecological disasters can you name that have been caused by the sheer kinetic force of someone falling out of an airplane at terminal velocity?
'Cause really, that's (very roughly speaking) all the kinetic force you need behind your individual blows to kill a CR20 threat like that in fairly short order.
Meanwhile, the attacks of the likes of Saitama eclipse that benchmark so utterly it isn't even a comparison. If a character...
Your assuming Pathfinder even pretends to be realistic. Which it really isn't. And I don't want Saitama, and the examples I've given (Paths of Wars, Dark Souls humanoid enemies) are nowhere near Saitama. I already posted some examples of maneuvers from Paths of War, and none of them are OP compared to a caster's spells of that level. I'm not even arguing that Martials should be able to create demi-planes and so on, just be as good if not better than the wizard at the job they were supposedly designed for.
Also, the Balor takes ten hits to kill from terminal velocity. My question to you is, how many hits can a Fighter kill it in? Assuming no friendly buffs from the Wizard?
If they want fighters to be able to counterspell at will as an immediate action, then come out and say it. Don't talk about flavor.
But flavor is a key part of almost all RPGs, and of Pathfinder in particular. That's why, for example, PFS has such strict rules against "re-skinning" things without specific rules authorization.
You know, with all the people talking about how high level Pathfinder play should only ever be Saitama-esque dudes with flashy, planet-shaking superpowers, it got me thinking: a few pages back, we in the M/CD crowd kept on crowing about how--looking at how hitpoints scale--a high level Fighter could easily survive a terminal velocity fall. In fact, we kept harping on the math on that over and over to make our point (me included).
Well, IMHO, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Let's throw a Balor out of an airplane.
(After hitting him with Hold Monster and Dimensional Anchor, of course. Wouldn't want the subject messing up the experiment by trying to run away.)
20d6 averages to 75 damage. Take off 15 for his DR, leaves us with somewhere in the neighborhood 50 to his actual hitpoints shaved off for a given fall. So hey, he certainly survived, right?
Right, but it was absolutely a noticeable hit. That's over 10% of his max HP gone. Seven or eight more hits with that level of force, and this Balor is going to be in serious trouble. Which means that if your character is killing a Balor in one or two rounds of full attacks, then you've got about a (vaguely) rough parity going on in terms of the damage delivered by the individual blows to the individual falls.
So to those of you who are getting on The Sword's case for having the temerity to want to play to level 20 without his characters' strikes necessarily being able to wreck the local ecology, or other crazy stuff like that, my question would be this: about how many ecological disasters can you name that have been caused by the sheer kinetic force of someone falling out of an airplane at terminal velocity?
'Cause really, that's (very roughly speaking) all the kinetic force you need behind your individual blows to kill a CR20 threat like that in fairly short order.
Meanwhile, the attacks of the likes of Saitama eclipse that benchmark so utterly it isn't even a comparison. If a character...
This entire post falls apart when you realize that terminal velocity is not that significant of a speed or force. It's roughly 122 MPH. A bullet moves much faster. An ARROW achieves almost precisely double that velocity, at the low end.
The arrow is also going to have a higher force output than even a "fall" of the same speed, because the fall is going to spread damage equally over the entire surface area of the impacting and impacted objects, where the arrow compresses all of that force to a single, much smaller point.
Well, now, that would be a different question, wouldn't it?You didn't actually say what, if anything, a 20th level wizard should be able to do that a 20th level fighter should not.I read it twice and politely requested clarification..... which I refused to provide, since the answer I gave was complete and accurate.Only in specific verbiage rather than intent.
Do you have an answer?
Leave it, it isn't worth begging someone to eplain themselves.
I would be interested if anyone else has thoughts on the matter. Should there be any practical difference in roles between classes. Are there any sacred cows that belong to one class that we wouldn't want others to have?
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...... Anzyr, please tell Ozy about how a Wizard can build a suitcase nuke.
Why can't wizards build a nuclear bomb?
The primary method is to have minion with a readied action to cast greater dispel magic area version on the runes or that acts on your initiative, either due to being a summon or having the benefit of the battlemind link spell. The minion must be one that is guaranteed to fail the dispel check, which isn't hard if you push your caster level up with Orange Prism Ioun Stone/Death Knell/Bead of Karma/etc. A good choice for this minion is a Nalfeshnee Demon.
The Dispel needs to be from a minion because you always succeed at dispelling your own spells. Also, even the Nalfeshnee uses Greater Dispel Magic at it's CL of 12th, at most it can hit a Dispel Check of 32, which is insufficient to dispel your Explosive Runes since it must 11+ your CL (which with Orange Ioun Stone and Bead of Karma is a minimum of a 36).
To ensure successful delivery of the Explosive Rune bomb, make sure you keep it in something prior to use. Remember being inside a bag blocks line of effect, which will prevent opponents from blowing you up with Greater Dispel Magic. To guarantee delviery, use Time Stop), place the Explosive Rune bomb directly in front of the target to qualify for "close enough to read" and deny the target a saving throw. Move away (using spells if necessary) before time resumes, watch the readied action go off, enjoy as the target takes copious amounts of no save force damage.
Explosive Runes does allow for SR, but SR is honestly speaking a joke and even if your SR penetration isn't "Yes", thanks to the sheer number of runes your guaranteed many many d6's. In order to avoid globe of invulnerability, make sure some Explosive Runes are Heightened. In order to avoid Spell Immunity, make sure some Explosive Runes are actually Limited Wish/Wish/Miracle duplicating Explosive Runes. In order to just really really screw someone in
One of the many, many reasons I brought down casters instead of bringing everyone up to astonishing levels.