Basically what the title says.
Take for example an Undine PC with the Amphibious alternate racial trait. Do they take a -2 to hit and deal half damage with slashing and bludgeoning weapons when fighting in aquatic terrain?
Thoughts?
They should, since it's a problem with the weapon not the wielder.
This is why you often see aquatic enemies with piercing weapons like tridents, spears, and rapiers.
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Basically what the title says.
Take for example an Undine PC with the Amphibious alternate racial trait. Do they take a -2 to hit and deal half damage with slashing and bludgeoning weapons when fighting in aquatic terrain?
Amphibious+Aquatic doesn't affect underwatercombat. It does, however, affect underwater spellcasting.
Having a Swim Speed (which all Undines have) does affet underwater combat as detailed in the CRB.
Specifically, they are -2 to attack with S/B weapons and deal half damage. No modifiers to attack or damage with piercing weapons.
It is notable that a normal character which fails their swim check (and isn't firmly standing in water) is at -2 to attack with S/B/P weapons and is also doing half damage with all weapons, not just S/B. So just by having that swim speed, you are auto-passing swim and able to deal damage normally with piercing weapons.
Freedom of Movement is the only way to get around the S/B penalty while underwater.
There is a table covering combat penalties underwater in the Core Rulebook, and that table is reproduced in the Core Rulebook/Environment section of the PRD. The applicable row for an Undine would be the "Has swim speed" one. It is having a swim speed and not the Aquatic subtype that gives creatures like the Undine a slight advantage in aquatic combat.
In regard to the penalties with slashing and bludgeoning weapons, only the Freedom of Movement spell eliminates them.
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Or one of these.
Yeah, there are lots of other ways to get around that limitation, mostly magic items and class abilities. Just meant in regard the Underwater combat table in the CRB, freedom of movement is the only way to avoid the penalties entirely.
As an aside, an adventurer should ALWAYS have a piercing weapon, just in case of underwater combat. Daggers are great for this, since they are piercing or slashing, and they're a light weapon both in weight and rules. And given the pretty nasty penalties for underwater shooting attacks, crossbow and firearm users should really consider a bayonet, for underwater combat (two handed piercing weapon that weighs as much as a dagger).
Ok, I can have my Undine use a piercing weapon easily enough. But doesn't that mean that all the aquatic creatures with bludgeoning or slashing attacks are taking that -2 and half damage? That seems pretty strange.
For example: Aboleths, Ahuizotl, Merrow, Sahuagin, and Scrag Trolls would all take the penalties by this logic.
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Ok, I can have my Undine use a piercing weapon easily enough. But doesn't that mean that all the aquatic creatures with bludgeoning or slashing attacks are taking that -2 and half damage? That seems pretty strange.
It is incredibly strange, but remains the Paizo ruling on the subject.
And remember, attacks that deal multiple types of damage (like the bite attack on every aquatic animal) is at -2 to attack and half damage because it deal B+S damage, even if it's also piercing....This one does really need an FAQ, but as written, sharks are not as scary in Pathfinder as they are in real life..
The table in the Environment section only applies to "land-based creatures," so sharks are just fine and take no penalties at all.
Land-based creatures can have considerable difficulty when fighting in water. Water affects a creature's attack rolls, damage, and movement. In some cases a creature's opponents might get a bonus on attacks. The effects are summarized on Table: Combat Adjustments Underwater. They apply whenever a character is swimming, walking in chest-deep water, or walking along the bottom of a body of water.
*emphasis mine
No strict definition of "land-based" is given, so that's up to the GM to decide. I would say it depends on whether the creature spends most of it's time on land or underwater rather than on subtype. That is, an amphibious creature that lives most of the day on land, I would consider to be land-based.
Here's something from the GameMastery Guide:
The rules presented in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook for underwater combat apply to creatures not native to this dangerous environment, such as most PCs. For extended aquatic adventures or for particularly deep explorations, PCs will doubtless need to use magic to continue their adventures. Water breathing is of obvious use, while endure elements can help with temperature. Pressure damage can be avoided entirely with effects such as freedom of movement. Polymorph spells are perhaps the most useful in water,
though, if the form assumed is aquatic in nature.Natural Adaptation: Any creature that has the aquatic subtype can breathe water easily and is unaffected by water temperature extremes that are found in that creature’s typical environment. Aquatic creatures and creatures with the hold breath ability are much more resistant to pressure damage; they do not suffer damage from pressure unless they are moved instantaneously from one depth to another in the blink of an eye (in which case they adapt to the pressure change after successfully making five successive Fortitude saves against the pressure effects).
So a PC with the aquatic subtype shouldn't take the penalties.
Don't forget about deep water pressure damage. Most creatures don't specifically state they're immune. This is in the core rules people!
Very deep water is not only generally pitch black, posing a navigational hazard, but worse, deals water pressure damage of 1d6 points per minute for every 100 feet the character is below the surface. A successful Fortitude save (DC 15, +1 for each previous check) means the diver takes no damage in that minute. Very cold water deals 1d6 points of nonlethal damage from hypothermia per minute of exposure.
20,000 leagues under the sea A popular spot for adventurers. Which is 111120 kilometeres which becomes 364566929 feet for 3645669d6 damage per minute.
Even amazing mythic underwater creatures (kracken, Julunggali, Thalassic behemoth, Deep Sea Serpent) they all don't have protection from this.
If you want to kill someone, just teleport them down there. Pitch black, no air, crushing pressure.
You should read the quote i posted right before you, creatures with the aquatic subtype don't take pressure damage unless they are teleported or something
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Don't forget about deep water pressure damage. Most creatures don't specifically state they're immune. This is in the core rules people!
Very deep water is not only generally pitch black, posing a navigational hazard, but worse, deals water pressure damage of 1d6 points per minute for every 100 feet the character is below the surface. A successful Fortitude save (DC 15, +1 for each previous check) means the diver takes no damage in that minute. Very cold water deals 1d6 points of nonlethal damage from hypothermia per minute of exposure.20,000 leagues under the sea A popular spot for adventurers. Which is 111120 kilometeres which becomes 364566929 feet for 3645669d6 damage per minute.
Er, you do know that 20,000 leagues is the distance they travelled (on a map), not the depth, don't you? Good luck getting 111,120 kilometers below the surface of the Earth's diameter is only a tenth of that. You'll be through the other side and a quarter of the way to the orbit of the moon, and suffocation, not pressure, will be your main issue.
Well that'll teach me to spend 20 minutes writing a post.
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Don't forget about deep water pressure damage. Most creatures don't specifically state they're immune. This is in the core rules people!
Very deep water is not only generally pitch black, posing a navigational hazard, but worse, deals water pressure damage of 1d6 points per minute for every 100 feet the character is below the surface. A successful Fortitude save (DC 15, +1 for each previous check) means the diver takes no damage in that minute. Very cold water deals 1d6 points of nonlethal damage from hypothermia per minute of exposure.
I had a barbarian (Skull and shackles) which was CON focused with several related feats. GM eventually stopped asking me to take such checks. Would just hold my breath for all of combat, while the party members were using spells to keep breathing underwater. Granted, we weren't spending hours underwater, but it was pretty funny when we calculated how long he could last.
Here's something from the GameMastery Guide:
So a PC with the aquatic subtype shouldn't take the penalties.The rules presented in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook for underwater combat apply to creatures not native to this dangerous environment, such as most PCs. For extended aquatic adventures or for particularly deep explorations, PCs will doubtless need to use magic to continue their adventures. Water breathing is of obvious use, while endure elements can help with temperature. Pressure damage can be avoided entirely with effects such as freedom of movement. Polymorph spells are perhaps the most useful in water,
though, if the form assumed is aquatic in nature.Natural Adaptation: Any creature that has the aquatic subtype can breathe water easily and is unaffected by water temperature extremes that are found in that creature’s typical environment. Aquatic creatures and creatures with the hold breath ability are much more resistant to pressure damage; they do not suffer damage from pressure unless they are moved instantaneously from one depth to another in the blink of an eye (in which case they adapt to the pressure change after successfully making five successive Fortitude saves against the pressure effects).
That's not what it says. It says a PC native to underwater environments shouldn't take the penalties.
A PC with the aquatic subtype that lives underwater shouldn't take the penalties. A PC with the aquatic subtype that lives in town with the other PCs probably should.
We'll that'll teach me to spend 20 minutes writing a post.
I hate it when that happens. i usually copy my post to the clipboard and check the page one more time before i post but it still happens fairly frequently.
Here's something from the GameMastery Guide:
So a PC with the aquatic subtype shouldn't take the penalties.The rules presented in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook for underwater combat apply to creatures not native to this dangerous environment, such as most PCs. For extended aquatic adventures or for particularly deep explorations, PCs will doubtless need to use magic to continue their adventures. Water breathing is of obvious use, while endure elements can help with temperature. Pressure damage can be avoided entirely with effects such as freedom of movement. Polymorph spells are perhaps the most useful in water,
though, if the form assumed is aquatic in nature.Natural Adaptation: Any creature that has the aquatic subtype can breathe water easily and is unaffected by water temperature extremes that are found in that creature’s typical environment. Aquatic creatures and creatures with the hold breath ability are much more resistant to pressure damage; they do not suffer damage from pressure unless they are moved instantaneously from one depth to another in the blink of an eye (in which case they adapt to the pressure change after successfully making five successive Fortitude saves against the pressure effects).
That's not what it says. It says a PC native to underwater environments shouldn't take the penalties.
A PC with the aquatic subtype that lives underwater shouldn't take the penalties. A PC with the aquatic subtype that lives in town with the other PCs probably should.
You're arguing that the aquatic subtype doesn't make you an aquatic native? Please find the rules for being an aquatic native then.
Er, you do know that 20,000 leagues is the distance they travelled (on a map), not the depth, don't you? Good luck getting 111,120 kilometers below the surface of the Earth's diameter is only a tenth of that. You'll be through the other side and a quarter of the way to the orbit of the moon, and suffocation, not pressure, will be your main issue.Don't forget about deep water pressure damage. Most creatures don't specifically state they're immune. This is in the core rules people!
Very deep water is not only generally pitch black, posing a navigational hazard, but worse, deals water pressure damage of 1d6 points per minute for every 100 feet the character is below the surface. A successful Fortitude save (DC 15, +1 for each previous check) means the diver takes no damage in that minute. Very cold water deals 1d6 points of nonlethal damage from hypothermia per minute of exposure.20,000 leagues under the sea A popular spot for adventurers. Which is 111120 kilometeres which becomes 364566929 feet for 3645669d6 damage per minute.
I figured something was wrong with the numbers, although I imagine Journey To The Center Of The Earth was in the same universe :)
Though if you want to go to the fun real world deep will just be a chill 360d6.
You're arguing that the aquatic subtype doesn't make you an aquatic native? Please find the rules for being an aquatic native then.
So a PC with the aquatic subtype shouldn't take the penalties.That's not what it says. It says a PC native to underwater environments shouldn't take the penalties.
A PC with the aquatic subtype that lives underwater shouldn't take the penalties. A PC with the aquatic subtype that lives in town with the other PCs probably should.
Living underwater makes you an underwater native. That's what native means. Unless you can find rules to the contrary.
Living underwater makes you an underwater native. That's what native means. Unless you can find rules to the contrary.You're arguing that the aquatic subtype doesn't make you an aquatic native? Please find the rules for being an aquatic native then.
So a PC with the aquatic subtype shouldn't take the penalties.That's not what it says. It says a PC native to underwater environments shouldn't take the penalties.
A PC with the aquatic subtype that lives underwater shouldn't take the penalties. A PC with the aquatic subtype that lives in town with the other PCs probably should.
Actually that's not what native means in pathfinder
This subtype is applied only to outsiders. These creatures have mortal ancestors or a strong connection to the Material Plane and can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. creatures with this subtype are native to the Material Plane. Unlike true outsiders, native outsiders need to eat and sleep.
So unless you really are claiming that fish aren't "underwater natives" (since they only have the aquatic subtype) please give me a specific rule that supports your claim.
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You're arguing that the aquatic subtype doesn't make you an aquatic native? Please find the rules for being an aquatic native then.
Doesn't really matter. The bottomline issue is that you want an innate freedom of movement while underwater, despite no rules actually saying that you get this. Those are the underwater combat rules, if you don't want to follow them, get freedom of movement or one of the many, many other ways around it.
For combat purposes, a Swim Speed grants a pretty sweet auto-pass on swim checks which means swim speed movement and some of the lowest penalties for underwater combat.
Amphibious+aquatic means allows your character to ignore the many, many concentration checks related to spellcasting underwater. It also allows you to breathe on land and in the water, which is not a weak ability.
And as for the Undine, What are you swapping? Is it perhaps, a level 1 spell once per day? it's a bargain with just amphibious+aquatic as above. Adding unlimited freedom of movement while underwater would really make it OP.
Although I like Hydraulic Push, that Amphibious swap is a huge discount on what it should cost for that ability, espeically as a racial option.
I have already quoted Paizo material that says those rules don't apply to aquatic creatures.
What i'm looking for here is for Quantum Steve to explain the reasoning that allows one set of creatures with the aquatic subtype to get mechanical benefits while at the same time disallowing another set of creatures with the aquatic subtype from getting those same mechanical benefits. The only difference between the sets is that one is made up of player characters and the other isn't.
If his reasoning is stemming directly from fluff then I will calmly ignore it(or put some fluff into my character's background) and go on with my life. However if there is a rule that supports his reasoning I would really like to see it. That's why I posted in the first place.
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You talking about this? That quote doesn't say they don't take damage penalties,
Here's something from the GameMastery Guide:
The rules presented in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook for underwater combat apply to creatures not native to this dangerous environment, such as most PCs. For extended aquatic adventures or for particularly deep explorations, PCs will doubtless need to use magic to continue their adventures. Water breathing is of obvious use, while endure elements can help with temperature. Pressure damage can be avoided entirely with effects such as freedom of movement. Polymorph spells are perhaps the most useful in water,
though, if the form assumed is aquatic in nature.Natural Adaptation: Any creature that has the aquatic subtype can breathe water easily and is unaffected by water temperature extremes that are found in that creature’s typical environment. Aquatic creatures and creatures with the hold breath ability are much more resistant to pressure damage; they do not suffer damage from pressure unless they are moved instantaneously from one depth to another in the blink of an eye (in which case they adapt to the pressure change after successfully making five successive Fortitude saves against the pressure effects).
All it says is that creatures with the aquatic subtype can:
-Breathe water easily-unaffect by water temperature extremes that found in that creature's typical environment.
-Does not suffer damage from Pressure (unless they are teleporting to a pressure area).
Does not mention any special alternate rules for underwater combat. And 1/3 (water temperature) only applies in that creature's typical environment, not in every part of the ocean or in every underwater encounter.
Regarding the Land Based combat rules for underwater combat, sure, I see the arguement that those rules are for land based creatures fighting underwater. So, show me the rules for non-land based creatures that are fighting underwater...? I'm not seeing any, so as GM, I'd use the underwater combat rules because there just aren't any other underwater combat rules.
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Read the first sentence again before you look at the Natural Adaptation section.
The rules presented in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook for underwater combat apply to creatures not native to this dangerous environment, such as most PCs.
[...]
Any creature that has the aquatic subtype can breathe water easily and is unaffected by water temperature extremes that are found in that creature’s typical environment.
Its pretty obvious that the rules do not apply to anything with the aquatic subtype. "Most PCs" do not have the aquatic subtype, therefore the rules for underwater combat apply to "most PCs".
You are correct that there are no alternate rules presented, but that doesn't mean you go ahead and apply a set of rules that has just been explicitly stated to not apply.
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Read the first sentence again before you look at the Natural Adaptation section.
The rules presented in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook for underwater combat apply to creatures not native to this dangerous environment, such as most PCs.
[...]
Any creature that has the aquatic subtype can breathe water easily and is unaffected by water temperature extremes that are found in that creature’s typical environment.Its pretty obvious that the rules do not apply to anything with the aquatic subtype. "Most PCs" do not have the aquatic subtype, therefore the rules for underwater combat apply to "most PCs".
You are correct that there are no alternate rules presented, but that doesn't mean you go ahead and apply a set of rules that has just been explicitly stated to not apply.
You are cutting and pasting to make it look that way. It does not say to ingore these combat rules if you are aquatic, nor does it say what rules to use. Their point is understood, your's seems like reaching.
Regarding underwater combat rules, let's look at the options for aquatic races in the advanced race guide. We have the Underwater Crossbow, for merfolk, which allows the character to ignore the underwater combat rules regarding ranged weapons when using this special crossbow. We have the Undine Steamcaster feat, which allows fire spells to be cast underwater, the banning of fire spells while underwater is also part of the underwater combat section. The already mentioned Shark Tooth Amulet, is an Undine Magic item, which allows the wearing to ignore the normal penalties for underwater combat.
Nothing in the ARG seems to suggest that Undine, or other aquatic, characters get to automatically ignore the underwater combat rules. To the contrary actually, the mentioned options above regard aquatic races with options to ignore the penalties via specific magic item, gear, and feat.
And, for the record, the Amphibious character that spends most of their time adventuring on land, is definitely a Land Based Creature. If the entire adventure is underwater, I'd consider some sort of exception, though I might just hand wave most of the underwater combat rules, just for simplicity.
Those options exist because Undine don't have the aquatic subtype by default. In order to become aquatic you have to use an alternate racial trait, or take the Aquatic Ancestry feat. Many different paths to the same goal.
Let me put it this way. By your logic I could create an underwater Undine village in my background story and gain mechanical benefits. That's not how that is supposed to work! Fluff does not define mecahnics, (player made)fluff is supposed to be used to give a narrative that fits the mechanical facts (GM fiat notwithstanding).
It is internally consistent with the subtype system to include these mechanical benefits with the type, otherwise you have idiotic things happening like a shark doing a max of 8 damage with its bite, or Aboleths doing half damage with their tentacles.
In short, stop trying to deny mechanical advantages to player characters simply because they are player characters.
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The way that aquatic monsters are built does seem to hint at an intermediate position for handling them in combat.
Natural attacks by aquatic monsters can be of any type. The fact that their primary attacks are not all piercing attacks suggests that the limitations on bludgeoning and slashing attacks might not apply to natural attacks by aquatic creatures.
On the other hand, aquatic creatures who use weapons do generally limit themselves to piercing attacks. This fact suggests that attacks with manufactured weapons are always subject to underwater combat limitations regardless of the native environment of the user.
The problem with this proposal, of course, is that this compromise has no direct rules support -- but I suspect that many people do play underwater combat this way.
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It is internally consistent with the subtype system to include these mechanical benefits with the type, otherwise you have idiotic things happening like a shark doing a max of 8 damage with its bite, or Aboleths doing half damage with their tentacles.
In short, stop trying to deny mechanical advantages to player characters simply because they are player characters.
I'm not disputing the fluff. I do think the Underwater combat rules are intended to apply to all creatures. They might not have been intended to when the CRB was written, but Paizo has had lots of time to add clear underwater combat rules for aquatic creatures, and they have not been added. So at this point, the underwater combat rules are intentionally as they are.
Yeah, sharks deal half damage with bites and are -2 on attack. Mind you, they only have a single bit attack, so it's 1.5x strength mod, then halved, so 2-4 damage per bite (while underwater). Kinda stupid, but that's what is says.
Though really, despite movies like Jaws, Sharks are oppertunists (with neutral alignments). They go for the easy prey. They've got a swim speed of 60ft and the ability to use scent at 180ft, so I'd use them for hit and run tactics, or as a pack with flanking bonuses. Kinda like how I'd use wolves. They don't need to attack with brute force, they can wait you out, and hit you when you are weakest.
And if you apply the other rules for underwater, the penalties are definitely in favor of the shark, vs any land based creature that is in the water. If the creature is not in the water, shooting into the water, the shark has improved cover (giving a normal shark 22 AC). If they lack a swim speed, the shark merely needs to wait for them to fail enough to drown (non-lethal damage and exhaustion). GM's and players often like quick combat resolution, but Aquatic combat most certainly favors patience, especially when the opponent can breath underwater and the players can't.
In the case of bite attacks: They do bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage. Piercing damage is the most advantageous of the three for aquatic creatures in most situations, so that is the one that would apply.
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In the case of bite attacks: They do bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage. Piercing damage is the most advantageous of the three for aquatic creatures in most situations, so that is the one that would apply.
And, not Or. Meaning, all three at once not any specific one.
Also, an army marches as fast as its slowest member.Thus, since it is all, then it would perform at its least advantageous option.
I think the intention is as Ridiculon suggests.
I know that the RAW can be read as Murdock suggests.
As this is a Rules thread, with the evidence given so far, Murdock is the most technically correct.
I think it would be foolish to play the game that way. But this is the Rules forum.
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In the case of bite attacks: They do bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage. Piercing damage is the most advantageous of the three for aquatic creatures in most situations, so that is the one that would apply.
Well, it's not an OR weapon, it does Bludgeoning, Piercing AND Slashing. Like how the Morningstar deals both Bludgeoning AND Piercing (which does make it pretty lacking underwater). Makes Bites strong against DR, but that "best damage type applies" is only part of the DR rules, not something that applies to every attack.
The "OR" weapons, the player actually chooses/declares which to use when they attack. Sometimes GMs default to the best option, but that's a houserule of its own.
And yeah, the underwater combat rules really need an FAQ regarding weapons that deal both piercing and bludgeoning damage. I would apply the worse result, but it really doesn't address this at all.
But then you run into issues where the creature has DR/bludgeoning while they are underwater. So is the best attack the one that denies your DR, or is it the one that ignores the underwater combat penalties....Underwater water combat definitely needs a rewrite, I'm just pointing out the rules written, not debating what the rules should be (which, by the way, I totally agree with you you both on what they should be, just not what they are).
Ah, fair enough. I guess the GameMastery Guide statement doesn't actually print "underwater combat rules do not apply to aquatic creatures" (even if what it does say is logically equivalent)
How would PFS handle this situation out of curiosity?
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Ah, fair enough. I guess the GameMastery Guide statement doesn't actually print "underwater combat rules do not apply to aquatic creatures" (even if what it does say is logically equivalent)
How would PFS handle this situation out of curiosity?
PFS grants a bit more leeway than it is given credit for. Where things are questionable, the GM makes a call. This is one of those cases. I would say that most judges would rule the way that is most fun for the group... which would be to not greatly limit the combat capability of aquatic creatures. And since what is good for the goose is good for the gander... would give it to PCs who would qualify as aquatic creatures by subtype.
A good way to check the RAI, honestly, is see what the creatures CR should be given their stats and combat potential given the chart of expected capability to CR.
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Well, we might get an answer in june.
Anyway, just because "Paizo has had a lot of time to fix this" doesn't mean that their inaction on an issue means that they're happy with it, or even aware that they have a problem.
They have a lot of time, but also a lot of things crying for attention, so it's the squeakiest wheel that gets the grease.
With that said, the way that I think is most reasonable to rule for now is:
1) Natural attacks of aquatic and [water] creatures function without penalties underwater.
2) Natural attacks of other creatures use the CRB underwater rules.
3) Manufactured weapons always use the CRB underwater rules regardless of who uses them. Underwater civilizations tend to develop more piercing weaponry.
I think those would be consistent with the evidence (specialized manufactured weapons exist, but Bestiary underwater monsters never indicate that they're almost always operating at half published strength and would be more effective if they crawled onto the shore).
4) Unarmed strikes of aquatic and [water] creatures... I don't know, there aren't any good examples I can think of to analyze. I guess if you have that nifty "your unarmed strikes count as both manufactured and natural", that you take advantage of that? A monk archetype focused on dragging people underwater and drowning them could be badass...
Basically what the title says.
Take for example an Undine PC with the Amphibious alternate racial trait. Do they take a -2 to hit and deal half damage with slashing and bludgeoning weapons when fighting in aquatic terrain?
If they're using landlubber weapons like swords and maces, most certainly...because the problem is with the weapon, not the wielder.
That's why their bestiary entries have them equipped with appropriate underwater weapons. i.e. tridents, spears, etc.
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Ah, fair enough. I guess the GameMastery Guide statement doesn't actually print "underwater combat rules do not apply to aquatic creatures" (even if what it does say is logically equivalent)
How would PFS handle this situation out of curiosity?
One of those, "Expect Table Variation" answers. Basically means that each GM would handle it a bit differently. PFS has semi-random GM selection and party composition in each session, so Table Variantion means that each session, you might have different rules for this. Fortunately, underwater combat isn't very common in PFS.
Though most PFS GMs locally lean towards rules interpretations that result in less dead PCs (we have a very nice set of GMs for our local PFS group). So since most aquatic creatures are NPCs, they'd probably go with -2 on attack and half damage with bite attacks. Undines would get the penalty, but they'd also be hit less and take less damage in return, so not a huge trade off.
For the record, Gore and Stinger attacks are Piercing only natural attack options, so that would be the best route if you want a companion animal or eidolon that functions underwater without worry of table variation.
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The Aquatic Adventures book is out now (in print form, and PDF form in about 24 hours). What can those of you who own a copy say about this? Does Aquatic Adventures clear up the problems with who gets to do full damage, or not? Does it define "land-based creatures" in a way that is clear and easy to implement (such as "aquatic type = not land based")?
I saw in a review of the book that someone said the book changes the rule about the surface of water, and the cover it provides. Can anyone explain what was changed?
I thought I had hunted down and answered all of these types of questions on these boards once I got my PDF, but it looks like this one slipped under my radar.
Does Aquatic Adventures clear up the problems with who gets to do full damage, or not?
Yes. Creatures with a natural swim speed from the aquatic subtype don't take these penalties with their inherent natural attacks.
For example, a kraken doesn't take any penalties with its tentacles' bludgeoning attacks. However, if it took levels in the ectoplasmist spiritualist archetype and gained two slashing ectoplasmic lash attacks, those would still take the penalties.
Abilities that allow you to move water, such as an aquakineticist's water blast, do not suffer any penalties.
Does it define "land-based creatures" in a way that is clear and easy to implement?
Yes. However I'm not sure how best to answer this one as I'm note entirely certain what it is you're asking. Isn't a land-bound creature and a water-bound creature readily understood already?
I saw in a review of the book that someone said the book changes the rule about the surface of water, and the cover it provides. Can anyone explain what was changed?
Yes. Piercing attacks can penetrate the surface tension, but take a -2 penalty to attacks when doing so. Other forms of attack rolls, even those from spells, have to contend with total cover.
EDIT: Clarified my answers, rather than simply saying "Yes" to everything. :P
I'll say it again:
Creatures with a natural swim speed from the aquatic subtype (EDIT: or water subtype) don't take these penalties with their inherent natural attacks.
What about druids wildshaping into aquatic creatures?
Did the druid possess the aquatic subtype before he wildshaped? If not, penalties.
Or Monks with a natural swim Speed? Does it apply to their unarmed strikes?
Does the monk also possess the aquatic subtype and gets his swim speed from that (as opposed to say, a spell)? If not, penalties!
If he does, PENALTIES! (Unarmed strike is not an inherit natural attack.)
I'll go ahead and double check that for you guys though.
EDIT: Excuse me, it's aquatic OR water subtype.
Does it define "land-based creatures" in a way that is clear and easy to implement?
Yes. However I'm not sure how best to answer this one as I'm note entirely certain what it is you're asking. Isn't a land-bound creature and a water-bound creature readily understood already?
Going to take another stab at answering this one. The divide seems to most commonly depend on whether or not you possess the aquatic or water subtype. If you do have one or both of those subtypes, then the underwater rules (such as the new buoyancy rules) really work in your favor. If you don't have either one, then they really, really don't work for you well at all.
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Or Monks with a natural swim Speed? Does it apply to their unarmed strikes?Does the monk also possess the aquatic subtype and gets his swim speed from that (as opposed to say, a spell)? If not, penalties!
For my example, yes, I'm thinking the monk naturally has both the aquatic subtype and a swim speed.
Like an Undine Monk with the Amphibious racial trait.
Or Monks with a natural swim Speed? Does it apply to their unarmed strikes?Does the monk also possess the aquatic subtype and gets his swim speed from that (as opposed to say, a spell)? If not, penalties!For my example, yes, I'm thinking the monk naturally has both the aquatic subtype and a swim speed.
Like an Undine Monk with the Amphibious racial trait.
Oh. Well, in that case...
PENALTIES ANYWAYS!!! Mwahahaha!
(Unarmed strike is not an inherit natural attack.)
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I'll say it again:
Creatures with a natural swim speed from the aquatic subtype (EDIT: or water subtype) don't take these penalties with their inherent natural attacks.
What about druids wildshaping into aquatic creatures?Did the druid possess the aquatic subtype before he wildshaped? If not, penalties.
So a druid who turns into a squid takes penalties that the real squid doesn't? That's messed up.
