Which cards can be traded with Traders?


Rules Questions and Gameplay Discussion


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Looking more closely at the rulebook under After a Scenario, a specific sequence is given, including (in order): visit traders (if you won), then deal with displayed boons that could be banished or removed, then rebuild your deck. The second step I named I get (you shouldn't be able to trade away boons that you might not be able to keep anyway). My question is about that last step.

It isn't until Rebuilding your deck that you're told to combine cards in your hand with your discard pile, deck, and displayed and buried cards. Strictly sticking to the order in which you're told to do things, Rebuilding your deck after trading means that you cannot use boons that you have displayed (like Osirion Ancestor) or buried (like armors or Commune), as well as any cards in your deck or discard pile to trade; only the cards in your hand(s).

It seems plain to me now; it is clear as written. I assumed that I could use any of my boons for trading. Since trading only with what's left in your hand(s) severely restricts how much trading the party can do, I feel the need to ask: what is the intent? You can trade with any of your cards that aren't subject to possible banishment or removal, or you can trade with only the cards left in your hand(s)?


Looks like your close reading of RAW is accurate.

I'm certain this is a case of adding the use of traders to the previous rules text without being careful enough about the sequence.

My understanding is you can use any of the cards in your deck.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

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We'll be adjusting this. The process we want after winning a scenario is this:

1. Earn rewards
2. Resolve displayed boons
3. Put location decks, blessings deck and blessing discard pile back in the box
4. Gather up your cards
5. Traders:
• select traders
• draw cards for the selected traders
• trade boons between characters
• trade with traders
6. Rebuild your deck (while trading with others)
7. Put cards back in the box


Cool, this is exactly how we have been playing it except for the order of points 1 and 2.
Vic's order means that I can take a reward in my hand and immediately use it to deal with displayed cards. Nice.


... Although you should add the following step to be complete:
Between 4 and 5: Distribute cards from dead characters between characters that survived the scenario

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Frencois wrote:

Cool, this is exactly how we have been playing it except for the order of points 1 and 2.

Vic's order means that I can take a reward in my hand and immediately use it to deal with displayed cards. Nice.

Good point. We want to swap 1 and 2—resolve the displayed boons before you earn your reward.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

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Here's how we plan to execute this. Replace the "Ending a Scenario, Adventure, or Adventure Path" rules with the following:

Future Rulebook wrote:

If at any point you need to advance the blessing deck but there are no cards remaining in it, immediately end the current turn; the scenario then ends and your party of adventurers loses. You also lose if all of the characters are dead at the same time (see Dying on page 13). You do not earn the reward on the scenario card, and you didn’t complete that scenario. You must replay it and complete it successfully before you can attempt the next scenario.

If the players defeat the villain and prevent it from escaping, or they achieve a different condition for winning listed on the scenario card, your group wins the scenario.

Go through the following steps in order.

Resolve displayed boons. Whether you won or lost the scenario, if any displayed boons could be banished or removed from the game when a certain condition is met (such as the end of an encounter, the end of a turn, or a location closing), treat them as if that condition is occurring.

Earn rewards. If you won the scenario, the party earns the reward listed on the scenario card. When you successfully complete all of the scenarios on the adventure card, you complete the adventure, and earn the reward on the adventure card. If you successfully complete all of the adventures listed on the Adventure Path card, earn the reward on the Adventure Path card. You may be rewarded with loot cards, each of which can be given to any character in the group. If you’re rewarded with a feat, choose an appropriate checkbox on your character card (or your role card, if you have one) and check it. That feat now applies to your character until she dies. If you’re rewarded with a feat of a specific type and your character has no unchecked feats of that type, you do not gain a feat. Your party may be rewarded with a trader; check it off on the Bazaar card. You may not earn the reward from a given scenario, adventure, or Adventure Path more than once unless the reward specifically tells you otherwise.

Put cards where they need to go. Whether you won or lost, put all cards other than boons back in the box. All characters then gather up their cards, along with the cards of any dead characters. Characters may trade boons amongst themselves at this time.

Visit traders. If you won the scenario, each character may visit a trader. Most traders list a type of card that they offer and a trade cost; characters can pay the trade cost to get a card offered by the trader. Each character may visit 1 trader that has been checked off on the Bazaar card; multiple characters may visit the same trader. First, display the chosen traders. Then for each trader, draw a number of random cards from the box equal to 1 plus the number of characters visiting that trader. These cards must be of the type that that trader is offering, and must have an adventure deck number equal to the completed scenario’s adventure deck number, or 1 less than that number. Display these cards on the trader. Next, all characters may again trade boons amongst themselves, then each may trade with the trader. To trade with the trader, the character must pay the trade cost by putting the appropriate number and type of cards from her cards into the box; these cards must have an adventure deck number no less than 1 less than the desired card’s adventure deck number. After paying the trade cost, the character may take a card displayed on the trader. Each character can make no more than 1 trade. If more than 1 character chose the same trader, those characters should randomly determine which character trades with that trader first. After all characters are done trading, shuffle any boons that remain displayed on the traders back into the box and put the traders back in the box.

Rebuild your deck. Whether you won or lost, rebuild your character deck (see Between Games below), then put any remaining cards back in the box.

If you won the scenario, you may proceed to the next scenario listed on the adventure card.

If you successfully completed the adventure, move on to the next adventure: Add all of the cards from the next Adventure Deck to the box, sorting the cards by type and combining them with the cards you already have. If you own any Class Decks, you can add any cards from them that have the same adventure deck number as the Adventure Deck cards you just added. Begin with the first scenario of the new adventure.

If you successfully completed the Adventure Path, you can build your own adventures using the cards you have, or you can create new characters and start over.

Anybody see any problems there?


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Maps, PF Special Edition, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Everything looks fine mechanically. Just a few nits that don't really matter at all, and likely won't prompt you to change any text:

Spoiler:
  • "these cards must have an adventure deck number no less than 1 less than the desired card’s adventure deck number." sounds a bit clunky. I can't think of a better way to word it without using a lot more words though :(
  • There are a couple of vague things in there, but the choice is between something that makes sense and something that does not. As such, I don't think they're a big deal. (For example, "put all cards other than boons back in the box" could be construed to include character cards, so you don't get to easily see what card feats you have checked off to rebuild your deck with.)
  • Technically, you don't put boons that were left behind in location decks back into the box until after you rebuild your decks. However, since they are not anyone's cards, they are not available to trade or put into decks, so also probably not a huge deal.


How about this?

"these cards must have an adventure deck number equal to the desired card’s adventure deck number or one less."


"All characters then gather up their cards, along with the cards of any dead characters. Characters may trade boons amongst themselves at this time."

Not clear what you do with dead characters' cards. I would suggest something like:

"All characters then gather up their cards. Characters may trade boons amongst themselves and distribute between themselves cards of any dead characters at this time."


skizzerz wrote:
Everything looks fine mechanically.

I agree.

Future Rulebook wrote:


Whether you won or lost, put all cards other than boons back in the box.

It does seem a little odd to go through location decks, sort out the banes, boons, character and support cards, and then put the banes, character, support cards, locations, story cards away but leave the boons from location decks and the blessing deck and discard pile out on the table. Does "Whether you won or lost, put all cards that do not belong to any character back in the box." work ?


Agree with Malcom, in his first post Vic clearly stated in step 3 location decks, blessing deck... to be put back in the box, but that is no more in the final proposal. Should be there, else the blessing deck and discard has nowhere to go.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Maps, PF Special Edition, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

At the very end you put all remaining cards back in the box; this would include the boons from the location decks and blessing deck. It just is a bit odd if you follow the rules by the letter that you put everything but boons back from locations earlier, when you know you're not allowed to rebuild using those boons anyway. Hence why I raised it as a nitpick instead of a mechanical issue :)


Actualy the only impact is that boons left in location decks cannot be offered by traders or used to rebuild you deck.
But why?
Usually if they are left in the location decks it's because you never encountered them, and there is a big chance you never even knew what they were. So why keep them aside?


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Maps, PF Special Edition, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Presumably it's because it made for more concise/clear sentences to not distinguish between boons that characters "own" (was originally part of their deck at the beginning and still is part of their deck at the end, or they acquired it during play) and boons they don't. The end result is the same whether or not the distinction is made, there's just a bit of funky stuff going on if you play it exactly by the letter of the rule instead of what most people would typically do (just put them back right away along with the other location deck cards).


[q] these cards must have an adventure deck number no less than 1 less than the desired card’s adventure deck number[/q]

This sentence still has scope for ambiguity. It is easy to read it as "at least 1 less than the desired card's adventure deck number".

Better would be something like "these cards must have an adventure deck greater than, equal to, or 1 less than the desired card’s adventure deck number"

This takes care of things like getting a Deck 3 card when trading after a Deck 4 scenario by discarding a Deck 4 card, a Deck 3 card and a Deck 2 card, without any ambiguity.

Cheers,

Anthony


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Maps, PF Special Edition, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Where is the ambiguity you see in that sentence? As in, how can you parse the sentence as-written so it means something else and still makes grammatical sense? I'm having trouble coming up with one.

I agree the sentence is clunky, but I can only see one way to interpret it after reading it carefully.

Edit: And of course right after I hit post I saw it. If you group it as "(No less than 1) less than the desired card's adventure deck number." you can get a different interpretation. With that grouping, the "no less than" modifying 1 means all of the following are "valid" readings:
- "1 less than the desired card's adventure deck number"
- "2 less than ..."
- "3 less than ..."
and so on.


There's something that I'm still unclear about in terms of trades and timing. Is this legal?

- Player A makes a trade with a merchant for Card X.
- Card X is immediately given to Player B.
- Player B uses Card X to make his/her own trade.

Can trades be chained this way? Can I trade for a card, give it to someone, and then that player immediately uses that card to trade for something else?

It's sometimes desirable to do this, because it allows you to "trade up" in terms of card level. E.g., Player A trades two level 1 boons for a level 2 boon. The level 2 boon is given to player B, who now has a pair of level 2 boons to trade for a level 3 boon.

Edit: There's also some confusion about these two sentences:

"Characters may trade boons amongst themselves at this time."

"Next, all characters may again trade boons amongst themselves, then each may trade with the trader."

Does "trade amongst themselves" imply one-for-one trades among players? Or can players simply give stuff to each other, without getting anything in return? (It often doesn't matter, but sometimes it definitely does matter.) I'm assuming that players can give/take boons freely, but I've been mistaken before...


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It's a long paragraph, but notice that you're told to trade with other characters first, then to trade with traders (you quoted it yourself). You may not trade for a trader's card, then give it to someone else to trade with their traders.

Also, trades between characters do not have to be one-for-one or "equal" in any sense.


I kinda feel "1 less" etc is inconsistent (and people don't usually use that type of wording). Card use the wording of "blah blah card's AD number plus 1" etc., so I think I would prefer that (in this case, minus 1).

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