[Drop Dead Studios] Spheres of Combat Kickstarter


Product Discussion

501 to 550 of 795 << first < prev | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | next > last >>

LuniasM wrote:

So I built a Striker earlier today and I'm not sure how spoiler-y we're allowed to get. With that in mind, here's my sorta-vague opinions.

** spoiler omitted **

Any chance you could present the 1st level build? I'm interested to see a base character built with this system...


If it's made with content from the playtest linked earlier, I'm assuming you can share all of it. That was a public link, after all. XD


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Rednal wrote:
If it's made with content from the playtest linked earlier, I'm assuming you can share all of it. That was a public link, after all. XD

Whelp, didn't know that. With that in mind, this link should take you there.

Short notes, I didn't put down every Tension ability because wow, there's a lot. The sphere talents I chose are at the bottom of the sheet in the Notes section. With the skills I assumed that counting BAB as Ranks wouldn't give me the +3 from class skills, so I put a rank in the ones I wanted that bonus for (Acrobatics and Climb) while I just added a Miscellaneous +1 bonus to Swim to mirror the not-ranks.


Also, did not include equipment beyond the armor I chose. For most characters you're fine with just using your Unarmed Strikes at first, even with the low damage die, since the combination of decent Strength and Power Attack along with the bonus nonlethal damage from Open Hand means your static modifier is pretty good. In my case I had Unarmed Strike +4 (1d4+6, +1 Nonlethal) for damage and the option to spend Tension to get bonus attack/damage or even an extra attack at a -2 penalty. You definitely want at least 14 CON for the HP, AC, and Max Tension. I've prioritized STR>CON>DEX>WIS>INT>CHA, although I put more into Strength in this case rather than bumping up the Wisdom score. One thing I like about Spheres of Might is the reduced reliance on feats, so you can often afford to branch out into other stuff like Iron Will (which I probably would've taken had I not needed Focused Sphere for Athletics).

Overall, it looks pretty easy to build and level, and judging by the numbers it's a pretty good Level 1 character. It doesn't have too much utility outside combat besides movement but I have a feeling that the as-of-yet unreleased Scouting sphere would help with that goal. I really just need a few more Open Hand talents and I can definitively say I was able to meet my goal - Faith generic parkour heroine definitely isn't a Level 1 concept anyway.


Man, when I saw Blacksmith I got really excited. There is a character I made for a forum roleplay a long time ago, and until now there has never really been any class that fit him. I really wanna play this character, I have been waiting to dredge him up for years (almost 5).

But the closer I look at this class, the more it seems like a crappy fighter with shiny paint.

It's really disappointing.

It gets no bonus feats, one save, about the same for class skills, 2 more skill points (but not much to spend them on due to Athletics sphere), but no direct always-on offensive features. You can say that it has them in talents and maintenance, but both of these are opportunity costs and maintenance can get turned off by the narrative and things outside the player's control.

It gets only light armor and no shields, despite having class features that revolve around the use of shields. Everything but the Striker gets full martial weapons (Sage gets Monk, which is more-or-less as good), but this gets just hammers. You can make dozens of armor and weapons but can't use any of them unless you pay out talent taxes from Equipment Sphere.

It doesn't get any free spheres, and an entire base Sphere (Berserking) is partly a dead sphere for them since they already get no-AOO Sunders from in class; no other class invalidates any sphere with their base features, and in fact all of them give a sphere related to their specific maneuver/style (See: Paragon+Guardian, Striker+Open Hand) and then build on part of that Sphere's base ability (See: Paragon+Challenge Upgrades, Striker+Tension/Unarmed Strikes.

I can't really see the heft in the potential argument over 'Berserking doesn't fit because fluff!' when Berserking doesn't have any actual rage-related features in it (though it has some former Rage powers); mechanically both the class and the sphere revolve around hitting someone HARD in a decisive fashion. If Berserking got a name change to something like 'Colossus' there would be no leg to stand on about 'can't have because fluff'.

Scarab Sages

2 people marked this as a favorite.
StygianRose wrote:

Man, when I saw Blacksmith I got really excited. There is a character I made for a forum roleplay a long time ago, and until now there has never really been any class that fit him. I really wanna play this character, I have been waiting to dredge him up for years (almost 5).

But the closer I look at this class, the more it seems like a crappy fighter with shiny paint.

It's really disappointing.

I'm sorry you feel that way.

Quote:


It gets no bonus feats

Kind of a misleading statement- the class gets full Expert talent progression, Improved Sunder++, Craft Wondrous Item, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, and 10 smithing insights, many of which are packets of bonus feats (Durable grants Endurance and Toughness, Gunsmith grants proficiency in all firearms and the Gunsmithing feat, and Master Shieldsmith grants the benefits of Improved Shield Bash plus some of the best parts of Shield Master), and the ones that aren't packages of feats or feat abilities are all generally quite potent in their own right.

Quote:
one save

It is true that it only has one good save, but it's also a full BAB, full talent progression class with a host of solid class features and cheap crafting with free bonus feats, and maintenances it can use to shore up its saves and defenses as well. There were some real questions about how much you can actually give a class and still have it be balanced, so we went with 1 good save for the time being.

Quote:


about the same for class skills, 2 more skill points (but not much to spend them on due to Athletics sphere), but no direct always-on offensive features.

It has 4+Int class skills and 11 class skills that include things like Disable Device and Use Magic Device. It can also replace Craft and Spellcraft with Profession (blacksmith), allowing it to simulate essentially every Craft skill under one skill. What would you like to see added to that?

As to "always on" offensive features, it has Thunderous Blows, which allow spill-over damage to be applied to the wielder. Shirts, rings, boots, pants, etc. are all items you can Sunder with little to no Hardness, so a Blacksmith can actually beat someone naked with Thunderous Blows with most of the damage applying directly to the target, all while piling on increasing stacks of debuffs.

Quote:


You can say that it has them in talents and maintenance, but both of these are opportunity costs and maintenance can get turned off by the narrative and things outside the player's control.

Maintenance can't get "turned off" by the narrative, unless the narrative involves the party going 24 consecutive hours without rest, in which case a lot of other things (spellcasting, spell points, per day abilities, etc.) are also getting turned off. Every practitioner class also starts with lower base proficiencies; that's why they get two bonus spheres at 1st level, so they can either dedicate those to shoring up areas of their character they think are weak, or they can choose to dedicate them to a particular combat style or build that doesn't need any additional proficiencies.

Quote:


It gets only light armor and no shields, despite having class features that revolve around the use of shields.

Those class features also allow him to use and benefit from shields if he chooses to take them.

Quote:


Everything but the Striker gets full martial weapons (Sage gets Monk, which is more-or-less as good), but this gets just hammers. You can make dozens of armor and weapons but can't use any of them unless you pay out talent taxes from Equipment Sphere.

Honestly that was a bit of a surprise to me. Classes like the Armiger and Paragon were supposed to have "all martial melee or all martial ranged" type options for their base proficiencies; I think there may have been some miscommunications behind the scenes.

Quote:


It doesn't get any free spheres, and an entire base Sphere (Berserking) is partly a dead sphere for them since they already get no-AOO Sunders from in class; no other class invalidates any sphere with their base features, and in fact all of them give a sphere related to their specific maneuver/style (See: Paragon+Guardian, Striker+Open Hand) and then build on part of that Sphere's base ability (See: Paragon+Challenge Upgrades, Striker+Tension/Unarmed Strikes.

Blacksmith was actually finished before the other classes other than Armiger, and before most of the spheres. I had no way of knowing what sphere was going to be most appropriate for it at the time, so it's basically been waiting until the spheres were complete for that to be decided. Currently it gets Equipment as a free sphere since that was most thematically in line with a class that can craft and create a wide array of equipment.

Quote:


I can't really see the heft in the potential argument over 'Berserking doesn't fit because fluff!' when Berserking doesn't have any actual rage-related features in it (though it has some former Rage powers); mechanically both the class and the sphere revolve around hitting someone HARD in a decisive fashion. If Berserking got a name change to something like 'Colossus' there would be no leg to stand on about 'can't have...

Berzerking is actually a sphere that's a topic of some discussion amongst the group, and has been for a few days. I strongly suspect it's going to be changed in the near future but unfortunately everyone's focus has kind of been on other things and we haven't had an opportunity to sit down and hammer that out. The reality is that the Berzerker sphere not having any berzerker mechanics in it is a failure of the Berzerker sphere, and something we've been talking about addressing. There is a very high probability that it's current faux Power Attack ability and sunder base are both going to be thrown out in exchange for more rage style mechanics.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I've been trying to get a rough sketch of 4 level 5 characters to test out in a one shot. Let me just give everyone an idea of what you can do with one of these classes.

Armiger - Level 5
Halfling (skill bonuses and small size)
Athletics Sphere - Leap and Climb package
(I put one rank into the skills to get the class bonus, it could be reworded to award ranks in the skill equal to BAB, but till then, 1 rank it is.)
Traits to eliminate AC Pen. and make Sleight of Hand a class skill.

Talents - Scale Foe, (feat) Reflexive Twist, Might Conditioning

Scoundrel Sphere (Take advantage of the Great Focus prowess. I can keep a continuous focus in Athletics and swap out Scoundrel when I need to)

Weapon Specific - Lancer Sphere, Bloody Rip; Distracting Trickery, Playing Dirty; Barrage Sphere, Blinding Flurry

Climb an enemy with a huge bonus, use him as a way to avoid attacks, dirty trick and bleed to death.

Barrage and Blinding Flurry to support against a distant enemy.

NOTE: Swift actions will be at a premium. No use for ending focus with this setup, but swift to change between Lancer, Barrage, Scoundrel will be tight.

Honestly, with the material previewed so far, I can make more interesting martial characters in 5 levels than I could in 20 levels of the core game.


My Blacksmith I have been toying around with using a Large Hammer of some sort, sundering everything used against him, and going down the Berserking and Equipment spheres a little.

I fully support an overhaul of the Berserking sphere. My opinion, chuck the Power Attack stuff and make the Sundering goodness a talent of some sort. Either way, being an Expert practitioner is a huge asset. Don't sell it short.

Scarab Sages

Wraithguard wrote:

My Blacksmith I have been toying around with using a Large Hammer of some sort, sundering everything used against him, and going down the Berserking and Equipment spheres a little.

I fully support an overhaul of the Berserking sphere. My opinion, chuck the Power Attack stuff and make the Sundering goodness a talent of some sort. Either way, being an Expert practitioner is a huge asset. Don't sell it short.

We're discussing Berzerker sphere right now if anyone wants to know what we're discussing. The basic proposed changes would be something like this-

1) Replace the base Imp. Sunder ability with the option for the Berzerker to rage for a number of rounds equal to 1 + 1/2 BAB (rounded down, minimum 1) as a swift action, after which he's fatigued unless he expends his martial focus. Means he's got more ways to burn his focus, but we have some ideas for that if we run with this idea.

2) Let Dedication to the Berzerker sphere remove the normal rage restrictions on skill checks and such, but only for the rage granted by the berserker sphere. This lets you have the kind of focused berserker, Moment of Clarity thing going on and could be very useful for classes like the Blacksmith and Troubadour.

3) Change the battered condition so that it applies a -2 penalty to the opponent's CMD and prevents them from taking attacks of opportunity normally provoked by combat maneuvers. This makes the battered condition something that both promotes martial versatility and aids the party without adding an additional AC penalty to a system that has a lot of accuracy boosters already available.

The Imp. Sunder and Power Attack mechanics would be moved over to a more generic sphere. We've been seriously considering moving the PA mechanic regardless, because it's very much something any character would want, not just Berzerkers.

Silver Crusade

Ssalarn wrote:
Wraithguard wrote:

My Blacksmith I have been toying around with using a Large Hammer of some sort, sundering everything used against him, and going down the Berserking and Equipment spheres a little.

I fully support an overhaul of the Berserking sphere. My opinion, chuck the Power Attack stuff and make the Sundering goodness a talent of some sort. Either way, being an Expert practitioner is a huge asset. Don't sell it short.

We're discussing Berzerker sphere right now if anyone wants to know what we're discussing. The basic proposed changes would be something like this-

1) Replace the base Imp. Sunder ability with the option for the Berzerker to rage for a number of rounds equal to 1 + 1/2 BAB (rounded down, minimum 1) as a swift action, after which he's fatigued unless he expends his martial focus. Means he's got more ways to burn his focus, but we have some ideas for that if we run with this idea.

2) Let Dedication to the Berzerker sphere remove the normal rage restrictions on skill checks and such, but only for the rage granted by the berserker sphere. This lets you have the kind of focused berserker, Moment of Clarity thing going on and could be very useful for classes like the Blacksmith and Troubadour.

3) Change the battered condition so that it applies a -2 penalty to the opponent's CMD and prevents them from taking attacks of opportunity normally provoked by combat maneuvers. This makes the battered condition something that both promotes martial versatility and aids the party without adding an additional AC penalty to a system that has a lot of accuracy boosters already available.

The Imp. Sunder and Power Attack mechanics would be moved over to a more generic sphere. We've been seriously considering moving the PA mechanic regardless, because it's very much something any character would want, not just Berzerkers.

*scratchss head*

Maybe an overexertion ability or something, like you can increase your damage, attack, dodge bonus to AC, or bonus to saves by deciding to take a specific amount damage before each action? Or give you better bonuses the lower your health gets?

Agreed with moving the PA, since that's something every melee would love.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I'm not an expert on game design, but one of the things I remember hearing is that anything almost every character would want to take should probably be rolled in as a basic thing the characters get at some point, rather than as an "option" that's not really an option at all. Ah, well. I'll just wait to see what you come up with for now. XD The whole point of these playtests is ironing things out, after all.

Scarab Sages

Rednal wrote:
I'm not an expert on game design, but one of the things I remember hearing is that anything almost every character would want to take should probably be rolled in as a basic thing the characters get at some point, rather than as an "option" that's not really an option at all. Ah, well. I'll just wait to see what you come up with for now. XD The whole point of these playtests is ironing things out, after all.

I will say, one of the suggestions I made just last night was that we should include rules for making Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Vital Strike, and Deadly Aim core functions of the game instead of things you buy. Since we've promised compatibility with core and other products that would probably be an optional rule and we'd still include normal paths to Power Attack (or leave the normal path as is since Power Attack is already one of the feats that's legitimately worth a feat), but it's definitely something we've discussed and a principle we agree with.

Silver Crusade

Ssalarn wrote:
Rednal wrote:
I'm not an expert on game design, but one of the things I remember hearing is that anything almost every character would want to take should probably be rolled in as a basic thing the characters get at some point, rather than as an "option" that's not really an option at all. Ah, well. I'll just wait to see what you come up with for now. XD The whole point of these playtests is ironing things out, after all.
I will say, one of the suggestions I made just last night was that we should include rules for making Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Vital Strike, and Deadly Aim core functions of the game instead of things you buy. Since we've promised compatibility with core and other products that would probably be an optional rule and we'd still include normal paths to Power Attack (or leave the normal path as is since Power Attack is already one of the feats that's legitimately worth a feat), but it's definitely something we've discussed and a principle we agree with.

I'd be curious about the ramifications of giving those options for free outside of just classes, especially for monsters. Those are nice to have, but not everyone and everything does, and for those that do already have them that would free up a bunch of feats so that's even more to consider.

Scarab Sages

Rysky wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:
Rednal wrote:
I'm not an expert on game design, but one of the things I remember hearing is that anything almost every character would want to take should probably be rolled in as a basic thing the characters get at some point, rather than as an "option" that's not really an option at all. Ah, well. I'll just wait to see what you come up with for now. XD The whole point of these playtests is ironing things out, after all.
I will say, one of the suggestions I made just last night was that we should include rules for making Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Vital Strike, and Deadly Aim core functions of the game instead of things you buy. Since we've promised compatibility with core and other products that would probably be an optional rule and we'd still include normal paths to Power Attack (or leave the normal path as is since Power Attack is already one of the feats that's legitimately worth a feat), but it's definitely something we've discussed and a principle we agree with.
I'd be curious about the ramifications of giving those options for free outside of just classes, especially for monsters. Those are nice to have, but not everyone and everything does, and for those that do already have them that would free up a bunch of feats so that's even more to consider.

It's certainly a dynamic changer. One of the biggest reasons we haven't already implemented something like that is because those consequences are terribly far-reaching, and while most creatures that can benefit from those abilities already get them, that does put an onus on the GM to have to find replacement feats for creatures that bought them and things like that.

I think for most games the best we're going to do is mitigate the costs- a talent progression + your normal feats is still a lot to play with and leaves a lot more open doors than there were previously. We have looked at the other options though, and listened to the many people who've talked about making those core 4 feats basic functions of martial combat. As I mentioned before, we're probably not going to be able to make that a core assumption of the rules, but it may be something we can create guidelines for in the GM Support section or a sidebar.

Silver Crusade

*nods*


*Rubs chin* Maybe... I don't know... some kind of Universal Abilities Sphere? Stuff that forms an important foundation for characters, and so commonly wanted it probably shouldn't be limited to just one Sphere (i.e. you don't have to get the 'base' sphere and then further abilities, but could instead take any talent from it at any time)? They'd still have to pay to get it, but it'd be easy for any concept to access...

Scarab Sages

Rednal wrote:
*Rubs chin* Maybe... I don't know... some kind of Universal Abilities Sphere? Stuff that forms an important foundation for characters, and so commonly wanted it probably shouldn't be limited to just one Sphere (i.e. you don't have to get the 'base' sphere and then further abilities, but could instead take any talent from it at any time)? They'd still have to pay to get it, but it'd be easy for any concept to access...

Right now the Equipment sphere has kind of become the dumping ground for things like that; really to the point that "Equipment" is getting to be a bit of a misnomer that we'll probably need to address at some point. But the way it's structured means most martial initiators can freely take it to snag the non-sphere specific goodies they want to flesh out their character concept.


How about "Utility Sphere" for the current overflow of Equipment sphere?


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Even though I am (as yet) not a backer, I fully support a sidebar discussion/optional ruleset that makes Power Attack, Vital Strike, Deadly Aim, Combat Expertise (and a host of other combat "action options") core functions rather than locked feats. The "these should not be feats" threads had a legion of ideas and reasoning.


Ssalarn wrote:

1) Replace the base Imp. Sunder ability with the option for the Berzerker to rage for a number of rounds equal to 1 + 1/2 BAB (rounded down, minimum 1) as a swift action, after which he's fatigued unless he expends his martial focus. Means he's got more ways to burn his focus, but we have some ideas for that if we run with this idea.

2) Let Dedication to the Berzerker sphere remove the normal rage restrictions on skill checks and such, but only for the rage granted by the berserker sphere. This lets you have the kind of focused berserker, Moment of Clarity thing going on and could be very useful for classes like the Blacksmith and Troubadour.

3) Change the battered condition so that it applies a -2 penalty to the opponent's CMD and prevents them from taking attacks of opportunity normally provoked by combat maneuvers. This makes the battered condition something that both promotes martial versatility and aids the party without adding an additional AC penalty to a system that has a lot of accuracy boosters already available.

Rage is incredibly strong if you have abilities that require saving throws as the bonus stats affect the DCs. Meaning if you want to be able to make enemies confused by running in circles around then you better rage first.

I think giving out "Improved Sunder" is fairly thematic as berserk is often associated with smashing things. Also if Spell Sunder is in this sphere then the base sphere should probably allow you to sunder without provoking.

The Exertion abilities already provide a psudo-rage flavor by burning Focus/Fatigue for super-strength special effects.

For the dedicate ability I would like a defensive or utility type ability. This is actually one place SR could work (sort of like Superstitious for the Barbarian). As a dedicate it can be turned on and off as a swift action, and it gives the allies or enemies doesn't matter they can all go to hell kind of feel. Alternatively I would look at a Die Hard/Fearless type of effect.


Here is a new and updated post/version of my 10th level dwarf blacksmith, built taking options that felt like they make sense for a dwarf using the elite array and without any WBL advantage for having crafting feats.

Bormac Orcbane:
------------------
Bormac Orcbane
------------------
Male Dwarf Blacksmith 10
LN Medium Humanoid (dwarf)
Init +3; Darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +18
------------------
Defense
------------------
AC 30, Touch 14, Flat-Footed 27 (+3 Dex, +11 Armor, +4 Shield, +1 Natural, +1 Deflection)
Hp 129/129 (10d10+70)
Fort +13, Ref +8, Will +8 (+4 vs. Sp & Spells; +2 vs. Poison)
Defensive Training: +4 Dodge vs. Giants
Active Defense (AoO): Increase shield bonus to AC by +3
Shoulder Roll (AoO; Max 3/round): +3 Dodge to AC, if enemy misses make an attack against it.
Resist 20 Fire.; DR 5/- vs. Challenged Foes; Endurance
------------------
Offense
------------------
Speed 20 ft.

Warhammer +20/+15 (1d8+16, 17-20/x3; Ignore up to 3 points of Armor or Natural Armor)
Power Attack +17/+12 (1d8+22, 17-20/x3; Ignore up to 3 points of Armor or Natural Armor)
Attack Action (Power Attack) +17 (2d8+22 plus Fort DC 19 vs. Dazed, 17-20/2d8+44)
Brutal Strike (Power Attack) +17 (2d8+42 plus Fort DC 19 vs. Dazed, 17-20/2d8+84)

DPR vs. AC 21: 53.8; Brutal Strike: 59.2

Thunderous Blows: +5d6 (Sunder, Constructs, Objects)
Hatred: +1 Attack vs. Orcs & Goblinoids
AoO: 4/4

Current Focus: Berserker Sphere, Guardian Sphere
Active Maintenance: Armor Maintenance (+3 AC), Sharpen Weapons (+6 Damage)
------------------
Statistics
------------------
Str 18 Dex 16 Con 18 Int 10 Wis 16 Cha 6
Base Atk +10; CMB +14 (+20 Sunder); CMD 28 (32 vs. Bull Rush & Trip)
Feats: Extra Combat Talent, Steel Soul, Craft Wonderous Item, Great Focus, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Vital Strike, Improved Critical [Warhammer]
Skills: Appraise [1] +4 (+6 nonmagical metals & gems), Climb [1] +8, Disable Device [10] +16, Intimidate [3] +4, Knowledge (Engineering, Local)[1] +4, Perception [10] +18 (+20 stonework), Profession (Blacksmith)[10] +21, Profession (Merchant)[1] +7, Survival [1] +7, Swim [1] +8
ARMOR CHECK PENALTY -0 (-1 with the shield)
Smithing Insights: Practiced Power, Durable, Penetrating Blows, Rapid Maintenance, Heat Forged
Other Special Abilities: Skilled Craftsman, Reforge
Favored Class Bonus: +1 Hp x10
------------------
Spheres of Might
------------------
Berserking Sphere
Spell Sunder

Boxing Sphere
Knockout Punch, Shoulder Roll

Equipment Sphere
Armor Training, Critical Hammer, Shield Proficiency

Guardian Sphere
Adamantine Cry, Mass Challenge

Shield Sphere
Blockade x2
------------------
Equipment
------------------
+3 Warhammer
+2 Heavy Steel Shield
+2 Breastplate
+2 Cloak of Resistance
+2 Belt of Physical Perfection
+2 Headband of Inspired Wisdom
+1 Amulet of Natural Armor
+1 Ring of Protection
Eyes of the Eagle
Handy Haversack

Mwk Artisan's Tools
Mwk Thieves' Tools
2 513 gp


I'm having difficultly trying to make a Sage. The class seems to want me to use open hand with the maneuvers, but then I have crap BAB so I think okay I should probably put more focus on the touch attack abilities that are provided but chi gong touch doesn't work with open hand and spirit shot doesn't seem to work with any sphere (even when sniping will be available, as it's a standard action to use rather than an attack action). So I try to put some sphere focus on athletics, with the hope that I can get enough mobility so I can hit with spirit shot and then move around the battlefield to stay out of reach, but noticed a lot of athletics uses BAB to determine how effective it is making it a poor choice for sages.

I feel like this class suffers from the devs trying to give us a hint of different options so you can be different playstyles of sage rather than all sages fighting in the same , but I don't feel there is enough support in the class for any one of those playstyles at actually feel viable outside of "you just spend the entire game purely doing maneuvers rather than ever attacking outside of doing a touch attack after a free attack is given for successfully doing manuevers".

edit: Though I should say that I do like that Knowledgeable Fist was added.

Silver Crusade

Milo v3 wrote:

I'm having difficultly trying to make a Sage. The class seems to want me to use open hand with the maneuvers, but then I have crap BAB so I think okay I should probably put more focus on the touch attack abilities that are provided but chi gong touch doesn't work with open hand and spirit shot doesn't seem to work with any sphere (even when sniping will be available, as it's a standard action to use rather than an attack action). So I try to put some sphere focus on athletics, with the hope that I can get enough mobility so I can hit with spirit shot and then move around the battlefield to stay out of reach, but noticed a lot of athletics uses BAB to determine how effective it is making it a poor choice for sages.

I feel like this class suffers from the devs trying to give us a hint of different options so you can be different playstyles of sage rather than all sages fighting in the same , but I don't feel there is enough support in the class for any one of those playstyles at actually feel viable outside of "you just spend the entire game purely doing maneuvers rather than ever attacking outside of doing a touch attack after a free attack is given for successfully doing manuevers".

edit: Though I should say that I do like that Knowledgeable Fist was added.

Right now in my version of the doc, chi gong touch is an attack action. Overall, a sage is going to deal less damage than any of the other classes, and the trade off for that here would be some of its more unique abilities with ki. I have a few suggestions I'm going to make about this class though, since this one isn't my babby (let me know if you wanna talk striker/paragon though).

Glad to hear LuniasM is having fun with the striker, I'm still fine tuning balance on that one. There's been a few updates to it in the playtest, a lot of them clarifications, but nothing too big.


N. Jolly wrote:
Right now in my version of the doc, chi gong touch is an attack action.

Chi Gong Touch is an attack action, but the ability has no text in it that suggests it counts as an unarmed strike, meaning it doesn't work with open hand. I took that as being intentional so that you don't end up with people trying to use Open Hand talents with Spirit Shot, but it does mean it's rather difficult to try and pick talents.

Quote:
let me know if you wanna talk striker/paragon though.

I'm going through trying to make a "monk" with every class in the game, so I should be coming up with a 15th level striker pretty soon.


Here are a couple of Strikers. Both 10th level with Elite Array.

Boxing Striker:

------------------
Boxing Striker
------------------
Male Human Striker 10
Init +3; Perception +20
------------------
Defense
------------------
AC 24, Touch 18, Flat-Footed 21 (+3 Dex, +4 Con, +6 Armor, +1 Deflection)
Hp 119/119 (10d10+60)
Fort +14, Ref +13, Will +8
Defensive Boxing (Full Attack, Attack Action, Ready Action, Full Defense): +4 Shield to AC
Shoulder Roll (AoO): +3 Dodge to AC, make free attack if enemy misses.
Uncanny Dodge
------------------
Offense
------------------
Speed 30 ft.

Unarmed +17/+12 (1d8+12, 15-20/x2)
Brutal Counterstrike +20 (1d8+35 plus DC 20 Daze plus Launch 30 ft.; 15-20/x2)
Supercombo: Spend 2 Tension for +2 Attack & Damage, Ready a Brutal Strike, Set Up Strike -> 2 Tension for extra attack -> Launching Brutal Strike -> Falling Damage -> AoO

DPR/Effect vs. AC 24/Fort +11; 118.7 DPR
38% chance of Dazed
------------------
Statistics
------------------
Str 20 Dex 16 Con 18 Int 10 Wis 14 Cha 8
Base Atk +10; CMB +15; CMD 33
Feats: Extra Combat Talent x2, Combat Reflexes, Great Focus, Improved Critical [Unarmed]
Skills: Acrobatics [1] +7, Climb [1] +9, Heal [1] +6, Intimidate [1] +3, Knowledge (Nature)[1] +4, Perception [10] +20, Sense Motive [3] +8, Sleight of Hand [10] +21, Stealth [10] +16, Survival [1] +6, Swim [1] +9
Striker Talents: Iron Soul, Speed Pummeling, Instant Focus
Alternate Racial Trait: Dual Talented
------------------
Spheres of Might
------------------
Berserker Sphere

Boxing Sphere
Cross Counter, Defensive Boxing, Knockout Punch, Launching Counter, Set Up Strike,
Shoulder Roll

Guardian Sphere
Adamantine Cry, Guardian's Focus, Mass Challenge

Open Hand Sphere
Deadly Hand, Piercing Pound
------------------
Equipment
------------------
+2 Amulet of Mighty Fists
+2 Mithral Chain Shirt
+3 Cloak of Resistance
+2 Belt of Physical Perfection
+2 Headband of Inspired Wisdom
+1 Ring of Protection
Eyes of the Eagle
Gloves of Larceny
Handy Haversack

2 900 gp
------------------
Tactics
------------------
Round 1: Challenge all enemies and walk past one, provoking an AoO. If the enemy is fool enough to take it, use Cross Counter + Shoulder Roll to screw that one over and use the 2 tension gained by movement + attack to regain Focus.

Round 2: Use Set Up Strike to ready an attack against first to attack you (selecting 3 additional triggers like attacks ally, casts a spell, moves) to make sure you get the counter punch. Allied activity + the massive damage of your 2nd round combo should ensure at least one of your challenged foes is down, meaning you regain martial focus.

Round 3+: Repeat round 2 until no more challenged enemies are left standing. If you ever start your turn without martial focus, use the 2 tension you start your turn with to regain it.

Dirty Striker:

------------------
Dirty Striker
------------------
Male Human Striker 10
Init +3; Perception +20
------------------
Defense
------------------
AC 24, Touch 18, Flat-Footed 21 (+3 Dex, +4 Con, +6 Armor, +1 Deflection)
Hp 109/109 (10d10+50)
Fort +14, Ref +13, Will +8
Uncanny Dodge
------------------
Offense
------------------
Speed 30 ft.

Unarmed +17/+12 (1d8+12, 15-20/x2; 10 ft. reach)
Supercombo: Spend 2 Tension for +2 Attack & Damage, Unarmed Impale, 2 Tension for extra
attack, Sweeping Kicks, AoO

DPR/Effect vs. AC 24/CMD 32/Fort +11; 50.7 DPR
70% chance of Impale, 0.63% chance of Entangled, 60% chance of Prone;
28% chance of Blinded (other calculations do not include this)
48% chance of at least 1 critical hit (for Twist the Knife + Dirty Mugging; not included in DPR)

Tension: 2/4
AoO: 4/4
Current Focus: Open Hand
------------------
Statistics
------------------
Str 20 Dex 16 Con 18 Int 10 Wis 14 Cha 8
Base Atk +10; CMB +15; CMD 33
Feats: Extra Combat Talent x3, Combat Reflexes, Improved Critical [Unarmed]
Skills: Acrobatics [1] +7, Climb [1] +9, Heal [1] +6, Intimidate [1] +3, Knowledge (Nature)[1] +4, Perception [10] +20, Sense Motive [3] +8, Sleight of Hand [10] +21, Stealth [10] +16, Survival [1] +6, Swim [1] +9
Striker Talents: Adrenaline Surge, Speed Pummeling, Blindside Offense
Alternate Racial Trait: Dual Talented
------------------
Spheres of Might
------------------
Lancer Sphere
Hurricane Strike, Painful Twist, Whirlwind Knockdown

Open Hand Sphere
Deadly Hand, Eye Gouger, Joint Lock, Lunging Strikes, Piercing Pound, Snap Kick,
Sweeping Kicks

Scoundrel Sphere
Counter Theft, Dirty Mugging, Twist the Knife
------------------
Equipment
------------------
+2 Amulet of Mighty Fists
+2 Mithral Chain Shirt
+3 Cloak of Resistance
+2 Belt of Physical Perfection
+2 Headband of Inspired Wisdom
+1 Ring of Protection
Eyes of the Eagle
Gloves of Larceny
Handy Haversack

2 900 gp
------------------
Tactics
------------------
If facing multiple people, use Hurricane Strike and/or Whirlwind Knockdown.

Seek to initiate the combo Impale + 2 Tension for Extra Attack + Sweeping Kicks + AoO.
Use Painful Twist against Impaled opponents to trigger Dirty Mugging.
Use Tension to regain focus after losing it due to Counter Theft or Twist the Knife.

Silver Crusade

God, that dirty striker looks awesome. I was thinking that scoundrel would work perfectly with striker.

Also a little update, we're going to be removing the SU from the paragon as well as anything to do with alignment, that'll hopefully be hitting the preview soon enough.


The thought of impaling someone with your fist via the Lancer sphere is also very cool.

Silver Crusade

Jack of Dust wrote:
The thought of impaling someone with your fist via the Lancer sphere is also very cool.

The first amusing idea we came up with there was the pinning talent so you drive your fist into the wall behind them too.

Paragon received an overhaul, so come check it out! Also sage might be getting an overhaul too, so look out for that!


I may have missed it, but I went to make a character using the Sniping sphere and saw that it's not in Preview 2 or 3. Is the sphere getting reworked or something? I was going to post a build with it but I may hold off on it if the sphere's seeing significant changes.


I hastily statted up a Sage, and during it I compared the combat stats to the other two I have completed. The Blacksmith is a great bruiser and the Armiger is a colossal debuff machine. The sage might not have the best to hit or damage, but with a few debuffs, grappled, prone, or pinned, and that enemy is going to suffer a huge amount of damage.

My thoughts: Dirty Tricks to make them inept at anything except spinning in circles, Sunder their armor or natural armor, trip/grapple them and make their AC tank with no Dex, messed up armor, and that sage will just have to smack a lowly AC to unleash a 1D8 + 1 (Pound) + 3D6 Chi Gong +1 Str. Throw some Maintenance damage and two weapon fighting and that isn't anything to sneeze at.

Still haven't seen it in an actual game, but that is my thought at least. Heck, out of combat temp HP buffers in place of normal healing isn't bad either. 1 round with Spirit Charge and the normal ability to increase the action time could give someone 30 Temp HP. A little more than half the Blacksmith's HP.


Ill post my character here, but hes a bit wonky since he draws power from a ton of different sources (SoP, PoW, Psionics,a single level of Death Knight and of course SoM)

Still hes an example of how Spheres can thematically improve a character, even if he buys into it.

Lucien of the too many abilities


LuniasM wrote:
I may have missed it, but I went to make a character using the Sniping sphere and saw that it's not in Preview 2 or 3. Is the sphere getting reworked or something? I was going to post a build with it but I may hold off on it if the sphere's seeing significant changes.

Yeah, the Sniping sphere was only showcased in Sample 1. I don't know if that means we're supposed to leave that one alone during testing, or not . . . . But I've got a player looking to test it next Friday in our kickoff session.

And that's gonna be interesting:
I'm basically trying to convert some of my friends from 5E to SoP/SoM. They're longtime veterans, and they've gone on-record as saying I'm the only DM/GM they'd be willing to keep on a 3.x-ish game -- I think Pathfinder's gonna be an easy sell, once they actually look at it. Moving away from Vancian magic will really help, as two players have wanted "organic" progression for as long as they've been playing, one has a rather spotty memory for technical details, and the other wants to run mechanically simple characters. Seems like winning all around, to me.

Getting use out of Barrage, Sniping, Guardian, Open Hand, and Athletics spheres will just be a bonus! I think I'll be able to tap some solid input once we get in a session or two.


Syrus Terrigan wrote:
LuniasM wrote:
I may have missed it, but I went to make a character using the Sniping sphere and saw that it's not in Preview 2 or 3. Is the sphere getting reworked or something? I was going to post a build with it but I may hold off on it if the sphere's seeing significant changes.
Yeah, the Sniping sphere was only showcased in Sample 1. I don't know if that means we're supposed to leave that one alone during testing, or not . . . . But I've got a player looking to test it next Friday in our kickoff session.

Sniping is being reworked, so any testing right now will be of limited use. Not sure if it will reappear in preview 4, as the authors have been quite swamped with feedback.


N. Jolly wrote:

Paragon received an overhaul, so come check it out! Also sage might be getting an overhaul too, so look out for that!

Looksgood


I myself am happy about alignment getting removed from the Paragon as I'm not really a fan of the system. Detect [insert alignment], Alignment Auras and the like are easy enough to deal with but it's a lot more difficult to remove things that the entire class is based around without having to rework the entire class myself!


I like the more agnostic Paragon as well. Plus, the class leaves plenty of options to add an alignment or divine focused archetype back in.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I understand making the Paragon more alignment agnostic. I'd be very interested in seeing something like the original paragon make it back in as an archetype.


I think I'll be trying out a paragon boxer. Not sure what other goods to add but that's where I'm starting.

Also on my list someone doing shield and two weapon fighting, maybe a blacksmith. If not blacksmith is also on my list. I'm really liking what I'm seeing, kudos to the team.


I do really like the Paragon rework, I swear. It's just... it looks really, really powerful to me. Full BAB, d12 HD, at-will bonuses to Attack and Damage, self-healing, condition suppression, two good saves along with Evasion / Stalwart and Improved Evasion / Improved Stalwart, free AoOs against non-challenged enemies who attack you, the ability to force enemies to attack you (and stop attacking your allies), DR, Attack-action AoOs, and tons more good stuff. If this class was released as-is with just the basic Challenge ability of the Guardian sphere, it'd be absolutely beautiful... but it has Expert-level Sphere progression on top of all that, and I can't shake the feeling that it puts the class over-the-top. Maybe it's just me. Either way I definitely will build one in the next day or two to see what I think once I've actually gotten some experience making one.


Since Paragon recently switched from Charisma to Wisdom focused I'm reminded of something I wanted to ask. Is it in the plan to allow certain classes to change their "primary" stat, like in Spheres of Power?


With the loss the alignment focus should the Paragon's name be changed? Maybe something like Sentinel? I think Paragon still works. i don't know, random thought. Still love what you guys have made, and super excited for this product.


N. Jolly wrote:
What up all, it's preview number 3, the pre-alpha playtest!

Good to have some free previewing pre-alpha playtest stuff out there. ;)


Going to start looking at this stuff again later today.


I sadly didn't get a chance to test out the playtest stuff. Planned for next weekend, or the next after that. The whole group was able to get together and we finished up Rise of the Runelords. Only took about 2 years.

Silver Crusade

Congratz!


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Thanks. It was a hell of a ride and I am very happy to get the opportunity to play again as another longtime player wants his shot at GMing an adventure.

This time I'll get to run a Vigilante Warlock. Looks like it should be fun. This time though we are using Spheres of Power completely for the magic system though, so I have been put in charge of recreating dozens of casters to kill my PC and my fellow PCs.

Have I ever said how much I love Spheres of Power?


I finally got a chance to gather my thoughts about the preview enough to give some feedback. I left some comments on the doc, but here's some broader impressions:

- Overall, I like it a lot. There are definitely some things that could use further thought, but I'm glad I backed, and it's moving in a good direction. It definitely works to give martials more interesting things to do in combat and to take away reliance on full attacks. I'd definitely like to see more out of combat abilities, though. I know some are coming in the Scouting sphere, but scattering a few more through other spheres would be nice, too.

- The Athletics sphere seems like it's going to have to tread a really fine line. Right now, it's got some really cool abilities, like Confounding Tumble and Scale Foe, but also some things that seem like they'd become obsolete at mid levels once magic starts kicking in. Maybe legendary talents will help with this, but it might seem a little weird if there were a bunch of legendary talents that were just flat-out better versions of regular talents.

- The Lancer sphere feels a little too focused on impaling right now. If it's meant to be used with spears and polearms, a few more abilities to help with area control would help. Whirlwind Knockdown is a good start.

- The Scoundrel sphere is awesome. So many cool abilities, from sword catching to swiping you opponent's potion and replacing it with a bomb.

- The Armiger is tactically interesting, but seems really conceptually narrow for a class. It's less "guy who's really good at using the right weapon for the situation" (which would be a little broader) and more "guy who constantly switches weapons in the middle of attack routines."

- I like the Blacksmith, but I'd like to see a broader varity of utility-focused smithing insights.

- The Sage has a lot of cool ideas, but right now nothing synergizes well with anything else. It also has to give up all of its talents for at least the first 10 levels to compete as a healer.


I find it really cool that the Blacksmith is a good class even without it's Spheres and Talents. I'd play one without those easily.

"Oh, me? I'm just a halfling with a knife and some know-how. Wanna give up or am I cutting your skivvies off like I did your fullplate?" XD

Edit: Aaaand I'm in love with Shield Skate. That's just great.

Liberty's Edge

Doctor Verbosus wrote:


- The Athletics sphere seems like it's going to have to tread a really fine line. Right now, it's got some really cool abilities, like Confounding Tumble and Scale Foe, but also some things that seem like they'd become obsolete at mid levels once magic starts kicking in. Maybe legendary talents will help with this, but it might seem a little weird if there were a bunch of legendary talents that were just flat-out better versions of regular talents.

Athletics is tricky that way. Most existing feats and abilities in that field are, shall we say, unimpressive.We will keep working on making the abilities cool and interesting to stay out of magic's long shadow.

Doctor Verbosus wrote:


- The Armiger is tactically interesting, but seems really conceptually narrow for a class. It's less "guy who's really good at using the right weapon for the situation" (which would be a little broader) and more "guy who constantly switches weapons in the middle of attack routines."

It should be noted that rapid assault doesn't come online until 5, and even then it is one attack. If anyone has suggestions for strengthening the 'right weapon' theme I am interested in hearing them though.


Currently what I find to be one of the biggest problems with Pathfinder is tasks outside of combat.

For example say you find a secret passage into a castle. Would you rather have a Rogue who can go in and sneak around to find stuff, but can't do much since he's by himself or have the wizard prepare several invisibility spheres so that the entire party can sneak in no problem and be both safer and better able to respond?

I'd love to see some talents that allow characters to bring that level of usefulness to a party, but not gated behind advanced talents. After all the Wizard can literally take that spell up to three times at level 5.

501 to 550 of 795 << first < prev | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Third-Party Pathfinder RPG Products / Product Discussion / [Drop Dead Studios] Spheres of Combat Kickstarter All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.