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Hey everyone,
Just some context to start off with: I just started playing Pathfinder for the first time with a bunch of friends (also first-timers, so we're all discovering everything together!). We're currently playing the Curse of the Crimson Throne adventure as our first campaign. Since this is the first time playing this game I am a bit worried about the extent to which my choices during the early game might negatively affect my late game situation, as I have no idea what the late game is like in Pathfinder.
My character
I'm playing a Half-Elf Ranger character with the Toxophilite archetype. Needless to say, I want my character to focus primarily on archery during combat. My planned strategy would be to spend the first turn of combat to get into a nice position from which I can continuously fire full attacks that trigger all my feats (Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim, Manyshot, etc). As such, I can also spend the first turn casting a single spell such as Gravity Bow or (later on) Instant Enemy.
Stat line
All that is still a ways into the future though, as we're just starting out and I'm only Level 2 at the moment. My stat line (15 point buy) is looking as follows:
STR: 10
DEX: 18 (including the +2 racial bonus)
CON: 12
INT: 10
WIS: 14
CHA: 8
I plan on increasing DEX at every level I can. As for feats, I currently have Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot and Skill Focus (Perception). I plan on getting Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim, Manyshot and Weapon Focus (Longbow) over the next 5 levels.
Specific questions
- How important is STR as a stat for archers in the future? Personally I'd rather focus on WIS as my secondary stat for better saves and more bonus spells. I do wonder though, would it be better to go for 13 WIS and 12 STR with a composite +1 longbow?
- What would be a solid equipment progression for this character? For armor I started out with simple Leather, but I plan on upgrading this to a Mithral Chain Shirt as soon as I can. Am I also right in understanding that I can buy this Mithral Chain Shirt for 1100g and then later on spend an additional 1000g to give it a +1 enchantment bonus? As for a bow, if I keep 10 STR I think a simple Longbow will suffice?
Thank you guys for any insights you may have. Aside from the questions above I'm open to any other tips about my character. I do like to optimize him, but I also want to keep role-playing into mind a bit (so I don't want to completely tank CHA or INT, even though I don't really use them).
1) The importance of strength for archers is variable. Generally archers want composite bows because it's one of the few ways to get extra damage with bows. You need 12 strength for a composite 1 bow, 14 for composite 2 and so on in that fashion. Some characters are spread thin and have trouble finding enough space for a decent strength score. Inquisitors are a prime example: they need minimum 16 wisdom end game for spells, high Dex for archery, something in con, etc. Consequently the most viable option is often 12 strength or 10/9/8/7 strength for a composite 1 bow or no composite at all. For a ranger dedicated entirely to archery I'd call 12 the sweet spot, MAYBE 14 if you play rolled stats, high point buy or don't care about int/con.
2) Forget about saves. Keep wisdom at the minimum to cast spells, 14 or at least 14 by late Levels. Because the DC for a Tm rangers saves are 10 + WIS mod + level of the spell, and your spells max out at a pathetic level of 4, the math gimps your offensive capacity. Wizards have a maximum sPell level of 9, more spells, etc. Use your no save spells. Principally buffs and utility spells.
I would recommend +1 mithral chain shirt as soon as it's affordable. No armor check penalty, sky high max Dex, decent bonus to armor.
For weapons, plus one, plus two, icy fire lightning or acid, whatever you can afford. Composite if you have the strength
1) Str is important enough that I'd say go for 12
2) Yes, you can later upgrade it into +1 Mittal Shirt.
I'd offer this. At level 4, pick up the Animal Companion. 5, grab the Boom Companion Feat. Suddenly have an Animal Companion on part with a druids. I'm assuming you know that most of the enemies are undead?
So, first off, good choice. Honestly, Ranger is probably the single best class for beginners. It give you taste of the magic system and how it works, the Combat Style Feats (particularly for Archery) are all pretty damn good and give you a quick indicator of the basics of your fighting style, and they're on an all around solid chassis.
Anywho, for your specific questions:
1.) It's relatively important, but not extremely so. Your main source of damage will be Deadly Aim, but the Str bonus always helps. At low levels you can't really afford a Compoiste bow anyway though, so an 18 Str and a 10 Str are identical until you can buy one.
2.) For archers it's tough. In the short term, yes, the Mithral Chain is best. In the long term, by the time you hit 24 Dex (which you will, and likely beyond) you've surpassed the Dex bonus of your armor, so any after that is wasted for AC. At that point, you want to buy Celestial Armor which will give you wiggle room up to 28 Dex, and even beyond that the flat armor bonus from the Chainmail will outshine your raw Dex bonus to AC.
General advice and questions:
A.) Why do you want Skill Focus: Perception? I ask because generally that boost is entirely unnecessary, particularly with spell lists like the Ranger and Inquisitor have. Assuming you have max ranks and a decent Wis you should be hitting most Perception DCs on average for your level. Once you start buying items like Eyes of the Eagle (+5 Perception for a mere 2500 gp) you're making level appropriate DCs easily, and higher level ones with only slight difficulty. When you add in Favored Terrain and spells like Acute Senses or Perceive Cues...you're spotting invisible ninjas in the middle of a thunderstorm and you reaaaally don't need that Feat.
The only time I'd suggest it is as a prerequisite for other feats (like Eldritch Heritage, which your Cha is way too low for), not by itself.
I'd suggest getting Rapid Shot or Deadly Aim instead if you still can.
B.) Consider dropping your Wis to either add to Str or Con more. Not necessary, but might help out a bit in the long term (particularly for Con). A 14 Wis is the maximum you will EVER need to cast all your spells, and generally speaking you should never be casting a spell with a save DC, so your casting stat doesn't need to be much higher than the minimum. The oly benefit is more spells per day which is nice. They're about equal in value if you suspect your GM may try the "Gank the archer" tactic a little too often.
C.) Consider taking the Hunter's Bond option that forms a bond with your party. You can make a pretty solid situational buffer that way, and Ranger Animal Companions usually suck. Even with Boon Companion.
D.) Don't generally waste money on buying Fire/Ice/Acid/Lightning enchantments on your weapon. Amend that. Don't EVER waste money on that. If you're really hankering for extra elemental damage, get Deliquescent Gloves. The extra +1 you could have bought for the same cost mathematically works out to higher average damage.
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A 15 point buy is tough, but you seem to have good grasp of the basics, you're asking the same sort of questions a more experienced player might debate themselves, so there often aren't straight answers to the questions.
I'll come back to Strength for Archers as that ties into your final general question for tips.
You're correct that going normal leather to Mithril Chain is a good path, as well as Mithril Chain (already being Masterwork Quality) can become +1 Mithril Chain with the additional 1000g cost for +1 Armor, if you keep 10 Str a Longbow is fine as opposed to a composite longbow. However you will want to get a Magical Bow.
Now here... I'd recommend dumping CHA and INT each to 7. that still gives you 4 skill points per level which while not great, is fine for what a ranger needs. And you're not losing anything as far as resists go, finally your Party's Ranger generally should NOT be the one trying to do the CHA/Int based skill checks often. Really dumping these only hurt you for handle animal, but you'll still be effective there since it's a class skill.
Dropping those to 7 gets you 6 more points to spend, I'd suggest spending 5 on Str to get +14 and throwing the last point in Con for +13.
Now, why is Str important for a Ranger. First you get a +2 Composite Longbow and you're now dealing 1d8+2 on every attack instead of 1d8. that +2 per attack may not seem like much, but it can add up quickly, especially as you get more and more attacks and as you mention, a Ranger can typically get in place once, then gets to full attack most every round. So you are attacking many more times/round than most everyone else. Also Arrows are Piercing, and you have blunt arrows, but there are going to be times where you need to do slashing damage, or just when someone gets up in your face and you can't back away to keep using your bow. In those cases you want to be able to drop the bow and pull out a sword, more importantly you, want to be able to actually hit something with that sword, so your +2 Strength will add damage there, as well as to hit. Finally, if your GM cares at all about carrying capacity you really can't carry much more than your combat gear when you have a 10 Str before you are out of a light load and taking movement penalties.
As for wanting to Role-play and therefore don't want to dump int/cha. Keep in mind 10 is your average. As an example I like to use INT and relate an Int Score to an IQ. The average IQ score is about 100, so that converts nice and easily. A character with a 7 intelligence is going to be an IQ of about 70. Are they quite as smart as the average person? No, of course not, that's obvious. Over the course of a 5 minute talk with an barkeep about who in town may be looking to hire some muscle are you going to be standing there drooling and saying "ME SMASH GUD!" No, not even close. There's no real reason that when it comes time to determine how smart your character is you simply don't know as many things as most people, but you are still going to know more about specific things. This even ties directly into a Characters skills. If an average ranger would know 6 different skills at an expert level, you only know 4. No one has to know you only know 4 unless for some reason you get in a bragging contest about how good you are at all these different skills.
The same things goes for Charisma. Charisma is far more than looks (The most common thing people want to relate to the stat). It's about how you talk to someone, empathy, sympathy, and being able to make them feel like they matter. A person with lower charisma might be able to do all that most of the time, but every so often they just put their foot in their mouth, say the wrong thing, and oops, I didn't mean to insult you like that!
Thanks so much for all the replies people, I really appreciate it and things are much clearer now :)
2) Forget about saves. Keep wisdom at the minimum to cast spells, 14 or at least 14 by late Levels. Because the DC for a Tm rangers saves are 10 + WIS mod + level of the spell, and your spells max out at a pathetic level of 4, the math gimps your offensive capacity. Wizards have a maximum sPell level of 9, more spells, etc. Use your no save spells. Principally buffs and utility spells.
That was my plan, yes. The reason I mentioned saves was not because I wanted to use spells that have an associated save DC, but because I wanted to buff my own Will Saves.
I'd offer this. At level 4, pick up the Animal Companion. 5, grab the Boom Companion Feat. Suddenly have an Animal Companion on part with a druids. I'm assuming you know that most of the enemies are undead?
I considered this, but I think the archery feats are more important to my character. I did not plan to really use my animal companion much during combat anyway; I wanted to take a raven for backstory/flavor purposes and as such I wanted to use him mainly to scout and fun stuff like that.
Why do you want Skill Focus: Perception?
I don't want it per se, I just wanted to play as a Half-Elf and they get Skill Focus as a free feat at level 1, so that's why I have it. I could have picked Human as my race and gained a more useful feat, but everyone in my party was already playing a Human character and I wanted something different. Maybe not the best choice from an optimization viewpoint, but I liked it flavor-wise.
Consider dropping your Wis to either add to Str or Con more.
I was thinking about going for 13 WIS and putting 2 points in STR, but the reason I like 14 WIS is because:
- Combined with a Headband of Wisdom it gives me access to Instant Enemy one level earlier- It makes my own Will saves stronger
- It gives me an additional Level 2 Spell per day (I plan on using Cat's Grace a lot)
I'm still very much in doubt about what to do though. The 12 STR sounds really promising as well, but I'm not sure if the +1 damage outweighs the pros of having 14 WIS compared to 13 that I listed above.
Consider taking the Hunter's Bond option that forms a bond with your party. You can make a pretty solid situational buffer that way, and Ranger Animal Companions usually suck.
I had not considered this yet. I originally planned on taking an animal companion purely for flavor purposes. I was planning on taking a Raven with the Totem Guide archetype so that at his third level he could just hang in the back with me and spend his full-round actions to give me a +1 to my first attack roll each round using Guidance.
@Glorf Fei-Hung: Thank you so much for the detailed response. It's a bit too much to quote, but all of it was very useful, especially the advice on role-playing low-INT and low-CHA characters. I sort of took this page on ability scores as a guideline for roleplaying and there it states that an INT of 7 corresponds to someone who is "Dull-witted or slow" and "often misuses and mispronounces words". That didn't sound like a lot of fun. Same with a CHA stat of 7: "Uninteresting, rude, boorish, and generally unpleasant to be around." But maybe I just should not take these so literally?
Your comments about having to drop my bow sometimes make sense, I had not considered that yet. I also indeed plan on being able to fire up to 4 arrows by level 6 (2 regular attacks, 1 additional attack through Rapid Shot and 1 additional arrow through Manyshot), so then any STR bonus you get is basically multiplied by 4 which is huge.
So just as a follow-up, you would recommend keeping WIS at 14 instead of dropping that to 13?
For archers it's tough. In the short term, yes, the Mithral Chain is best. In the long term, by the time you hit 24 Dex (which you will, and likely beyond) you've surpassed the Dex bonus of your armor, so any after that is wasted for AC. At that point, you want to buy Celestial Armor which will give you wiggle room up to 28 Dex, and even beyond that the flat armor bonus from the Chainmail will outshine your raw Dex bonus to AC.
You're correct that going normal leather to Mithril Chain is a good path, as well as Mithril Chain (already being Masterwork Quality) can become +1 Mithril Chain with the additional 1000g cost for +1 Armor, if you keep 10 Str a Longbow is fine as opposed to a composite longbow. However you will want to get a Magical Bow.
This is very good to know! Then I'll start saving up for that 1100g right away. As for the Celestial Armor, that's awesome! It will still be a long while before I will be able to buy it, but it's cool to know it exists :)
As for dropping your bow, you'll be unlikely to ever need to. As long as you grab Weapon Focus as planned by 5th, your 6th level Combat Style Feat should ABSOLUTELY be Point Blank Master. No more provoking for shooting, so you don't really need to worry about backup weapons unless someone outright SUNDERS your bow.
Before 6th, enemies with Reach are rare, so you can just do the 5 ft. shuffle any time someone gets in melee range to keep shooting.
As for dropping your bow, you'll be unlikely to ever need to. As long as you grab Weapon Focus as planned by 5th, your 6th level Combat Style Feat should ABSOLUTELY be Point Blank Master. No more provoking for shooting, so you don't really need to worry about backup weapons unless someone outright SUNDERS your bow.
Before 6th, enemies with Reach are rare, so you can just do the 5 ft. shuffle any time someone gets in melee range to keep shooting.
I do plan on taking Weapon Focus, but I'm not sure if I can do it at level 5. Right now I'm planning the following feats at the given levels:
1 - Point Blank Shot
2 - Precise Shot
3 - Rapid Shot
5 - Deadly Aim
6 - Manyshot
7 - Weapon Focus
9 - Snap Shot
10 - Point Blank Master
11 - Improved Snap Shot
After that I hadn't thought about it yet, but this should be enough for the next couple of months at least. Would you recommend I take Weapon Focus before level 6 so I can take Point Blank Master at 6? If so, which feat would you trade for it? I feel like if I postpone Deadly Aim too long my damage output is simply too low, especially since I'll also be postponing Manyshot as well.
Hmmmmm, you may be right there. I keep forgetting you're a Half-Elf. 10th is about the latest I'd take it, but you should be fine until then.
Hmmmmm, you may be right there. I keep forgetting you're a Half-Elf. 10th is about the latest I'd take it, but you should be fine until then.
Okay, thanks again :) Yeah I know I probably should have picked human from an optimization point of view, but yeah... I already had a backstory written for a half-elf even before I really looked into the specific benefits of each race and like I said, everyone picked human which felt a bit boring.
As for my stat line, I've decided to go with the following in the end:
STR: 12
DEX: 18
CON: 12
INT: 8
WIS: 14
CHA: 8
This feels the most comfortable to me. Having 8 INT and 8 CHA doesn't feel like tanking them and makes me more comfortable roleplaying my character. It also leaves me with 5 skill ranks instead of 4 which is nice because I want to also rank up Ride for my animal companion. (Yeah, I just decided to use a horse instead of a raven so that I can move around while still making full-round attacks as long as I'm mounted)
At the same time I get a little bit of STR bonus and I get to keep my 14 WIS. I think even the 1 point of bonus damage is going to put in a lot of work once I start firing off multiple attacks per round and even though 2 points of bonus damage would obviously be even better, getting to 14 STR is just too big of an investment for me.
I don't see the need for Point blank master myself, Improved precise shot at lv6 is your best bet, remove a -4 penalty on a lot of shots.
I don't see the need for Point blank master myself, Improved precise shot at lv6 is your best bet, remove a -4 penalty on a lot of shots.
I do like Improved Precise Shot a lot, but I plan on using my animal companion as a mount. That would allow me to still move around and try to get into a position from which I can fire without having to deal with cover, thus bypassing the need for Improved Precise Shot.
Why do you want Skill Focus: Perception?I don't want it per se, I just wanted to play as a Half-Elf and they get Skill Focus as a free feat at level 1, so that's why I have it. I could have picked Human as my race and gained a more useful feat, but everyone in my party was already playing a Human character and I wanted something different. Maybe not the best choice from an optimization viewpoint, but I liked it flavor-wise.
You might want to ask your GM if they will allow alternate racial traits. One of them, called Dual-Minded, can be found in the Advanced Player's Guide. It allows half-elves to trade their Skill Focus feat for +2 racial bonus to Will saves. This works out well for a Ranger, since Will saves are their weakest saves.
Of course, if your GM wants to keep things simple for their first campaign and not use too many source books, Skill Focus (Perception) will work just fine.
I don't see the need for Point blank master myself, Improved precise shot at lv6 is your best bet, remove a -4 penalty on a lot of shots.
The use of Point Bank Master increases directly proportionally to how often your GM attacks the back line. In my GMs' cases, pretty often. His GM might be different.
so you either 5ft back and are good or you provoke once.
But even while mounted, unless you fight in big open plains often, it can be hard to move into a clear shot spot.
so you either 5ft back and are good
Up until the point where everybody and their grandma has Reach, yes.
I don't really see large creatures with reach, walking up right next to you so you can't escape. You have melee on your team that make it hard for large creatures to move, and then that they are walking up right next to you.
A follow-up question to the armor my ranger would be wearing: Right now I'm planning on just getting a mithral chain shirt and improving it with enchantments as my character's wealth increases. Assuming that my GM won't allow Celestial Armor in our campaign, is it worth the money to keep investing in enchantments for this mithral chain shirt, eventually creating a +5 version of the item with some useful magical enchantments on top of that? Or would that money be better spent on some other piece of armor late game, in which case I will probably only invest in a +1 mithral chain shirt and then start saving up.
Until you hit 30 Dex, the armor is still the better and cheaper way to get AC (4 armor, plus up to +5 enhancement, plus 6 Dex = 15 AC).
Once you crack 30+ though, you have +10 AC from Dex alone, and can buy Bracers of Armor +5 for that same +15 AC, except you have 4 higher Touch AC for the same price as the +5 Mithral Shirt. Given the campaign will probably end at around 15 or 16, you will likely not crack 30 Dex.
Your decisions should be between mithral breastplate or mithral chainshirt. Both are good. Once you pick I'd just stick with that. I wouldn't worry about the 2 AC you'd maybe missing out on at lv 15
I considered this, but I think the archery feats are more important to my character. I did not plan to really use my animal companion much during combat anyway; I wanted to take a raven for backstory/flavor purposes and as such I wanted to use him mainly to scout and fun stuff like that.
It is a bit late now, but in that case look for a way (or just talk to your GM) to replace your animal companion with a familiar. 3.5 had this option in urban companion, so you can run that by your DM, and in PF, anyone can get animal companion or familiar for 2 feats (3 at full strength), so they are considered to be about equal.
That said, this AP does have some good opportunities for an animal companion to be of use, at least one that works well in a city.
In response to an earlier mention of getting into Melee. If that's an issue just take Weapon finesse at some point. With combat styles you aren't hurting for feats, so it may work out to grab something for flexibility over pure optimization. Finesse and you can Melee with any light weapon or a rapier hitting as reliably as your bow.
I'm not familiar with the campaign, but what if you end up jailed and manage to break out, only finding a short sword or dagger on a sleeping guard? A dagger could be thrown, but then You've lost your only weapon.
If you get pinned in a corner and your bow is sundered, this would also be a passable backup. I'm not the biggest fan of taking feats for situational-only use, but this one may be worthwhile.
