The concept is a character with a strong sorcerer bloodline being raised in service to a deity, and being gifted with the ability to merge a bit of what is typically divine magic with the character's innate arcane potential.
As a variant on the Empyreal Sorcerer, this Archetype would replace its bloodline spells with spells from the Cleric's spell list. It gives a bit of extra utility, allowing the Sorcerer to be a back-up healer (if desired) while not overshadowing the abilities of Clerics and Oracles.
Hypothetical, If a player asked you as the DM if they could play this variant in your game, would you allow it? Would you impose any restrictions? If so, what?
Instead of choosing a handful of spells to add, you might be able to accomplish this with a custom spell list or alternately just using the cleric list.
Take a look at the Razmiran Sorceror archetype (False Priest on d20pfsrd website). It allows substantially more divine spellcasting, at the cost of the spells needing to use a higher level slot (plus other details). It is regarded as extremely powerful, with good reason.
The problem with allowing Sorcerors to use the healing spells isn't the hit point healing, like Cure Light Wounds (they already get Infernal Healing in their spell list, so allowing this one PC to have 'Celestial Healing' in various guises would be fine) , it's allowing them to have access to the condition removel spells like Remove Blindness.
Most Oracles have to rely on scrolls. Most clerics won't have them (all) memorised, so often the afflicted characters have to wait a day for the cleric to memorise the correct spell, or use a scroll up.
If you allow a Sorceror to have access to more than one or two of these, they will immediately become better healers than almost all Oracles, Clerics, and Druids (who don't even have all of these spells on their spell list!).
This sounds a lot like an Oracle.
Ciaran Barnes,
I think 9 spells from the Cleric spell list would suffice for the type of character I had in mind without requiring the extra time to create a custom spell list for a new class.
I think switching out the entire spell list for Cleric Spells would essentially make the Sorcerer an ineffective Oracle, being as the lower level Cleric combat spells revolve around creating and enhancing arms and armor, and the Sorcerer is not nearly as equipped for close combat as the Oracle is.
Glarius,
How does the False Priest allow "substantially more divine spellcasting"? He gets "aid" and "remove disease" but for anything else he has to use an item like a scroll. It also loses Eschew Materials, which is a feature I particularly like about Sorcerers.
And why would removing statuses be a problem for a Sorcerer? Clerics and Oracles dip into Sorcerer/Wizard spells through Domains and Mysteries and it doesn't seem to be a problem... so why is it such a big deal for a Sorcerer to dip into Cleric spells?
Clerics and Oracles have several Divine spells of each level available to them each day, where what I proposed would have only one (formerly) Divine spell of each level available, and they wouldn't be exchangeable, so I don't see how it would be a better healer than any Oracle or Cleric.
Azten,
Oracles are Divine with a dash of Arcane, where this proposal is Arcane with a dash of Divine. I'd consider it the other side of the coin.
The cleric spell list would make him a better support caster, but if you're looking to blast monsters to pieces then it won't work for you.
Razmiran Sorcerer does indeed require to have scrolls of the divine spells, but they do not get used up.
Effectively, this allows every cleric spell to be castable on demand. Which is better than oracles who only know a few of them, and better than clerics who have to choose which ones and how many copies to prepare in advance.
This is balanced by the sorceror using a higher level slot and needing the scrolls in the first place. If you simply allow a Sorceror to have all the cleric spells as known spells, then it is unbalancing. If you allow merely the hit point curing spells, then it's fine. Except Heal or Harm - those are better than anything else, and should not be allowed.
If you simply allow a Sorceror to have all the cleric spells as known spells, then it is unbalancing. If you allow merely the hit point curing spells, then it's fine. Except Heal or Harm - those are better than anything else, and should not be allowed.
To reiterate, my suggestion ONLY gives the Sorcerer nine spells from the Cleric's spell list, spells which may not be exchanged when leveling up.
Nine cleric spells with max levels from 1-9 known is a far cry less than "all the cleric spells as known spells".
I don't see why it would need the restrictions you're insisting on. Maybe such restrictions would be appropriate for the Razmiran Sorcerer, but that's a whole different archetype, which grants a much more substantial pool of spells to cast.
My suggestion has no more spell options than any other Sorcerer. It simply replaces Bloodline spells with rarer utility spells and allows the character to ease the burden on the primary healer.
Why not reskin the Oracle class?
Celestial Sorcerer seems to be already in this neighborhood. I really don't want your version as most folks will simply be lumping cure spells into those "cleric spell slots of choice".
There is plenty of coverage in the arcane healer category. I don't think it needs expansion.
Alternately this sounds like a perfect background for an Oracle.
The concept is a character with a strong sorcerer bloodline being raised in service to a deity, and being gifted with the ability to merge a bit of what is typically divine magic with the character's innate arcane potential.
As a variant on the Empyreal Sorcerer, this Archetype would replace its bloodline spells with spells from the Cleric's spell list. It gives a bit of extra utility, allowing the Sorcerer to be a back-up healer (if desired) while not overshadowing the abilities of Clerics and Oracles.
Hypothetical, If a player asked you as the DM if they could play this variant in your game, would you allow it? Would you impose any restrictions? If so, what?
If I wanted a game with variants, I'd look at it, certainly. But I'd be a LOT more comfy with it if this bloodline worked like others -- if it provided a specific list of 9 spells as "bloodline" spells. Of course, then you can't tailor the archetype to a specific deity.
I think you'd be better off proposing a sorcerer archetype with a domain in place of most of the bloodline abilities & spells. That way there's no question of cherry-picking spells from a whole big list. There's a thematic integrity, just as with regular bloodlines, but enough variety to reflect different deities. Now how you integrate a domain & its abilities with a bloodline & its, I don't know. Have fun!
If I wanted a game with variants, I'd look at it, certainly. But I'd be a LOT more comfy with it if this bloodline worked like others -- if it provided a specific list of 9 spells as "bloodline" spells. Of course, then you can't tailor the archetype to a specific deity.
I think you'd be better off proposing a sorcerer archetype with a domain in place of most of the bloodline abilities & spells. That way there's no question of cherry-picking spells from a whole big list. There's a thematic integrity, just as with regular bloodlines, but enough variety to reflect different deities. Now how you integrate a domain & its abilities with a bloodline & its, I don't know. Have fun!
The main issue I have with just taking Domain spells on a Sorcerer is that none of them give you "Create Food and Water".
It really bugs me that a mighty Sorcerer who can evoke the power to tear reality can't manage to whip up a sandwich or glass of water.
If I wanted a game with variants, I'd look at it, certainly. But I'd be a LOT more comfy with it if this bloodline worked like others -- if it provided a specific list of 9 spells as "bloodline" spells. Of course, then you can't tailor the archetype to a specific deity.
I think you'd be better off proposing a sorcerer archetype with a domain in place of most of the bloodline abilities & spells. That way there's no question of cherry-picking spells from a whole big list. There's a thematic integrity, just as with regular bloodlines, but enough variety to reflect different deities. Now how you integrate a domain & its abilities with a bloodline & its, I don't know. Have fun!
The main issue I have with just taking Domain spells on a Sorcerer is that none of them give you "Create Food and Water".
It really bugs me that a mighty Sorcerer who can evoke the power to tear reality can't manage to whip up a sandwich or glass of water.
Tearing things up is easy. Creation? that's hard.
Tearing things up is easy. Creation? that's hard.
But the demiplanes Sorcerers can create are "creation", and they're significantly more complicated than a simple meal. Even if it were a spell-level higher than the Divine version, I still think Wizards and Sorcerers should be able to summon up a meal.
It also strikes me as odd that none of the deities see fit to ensure that their followers have this ability. That fact makes the creation of food more rare than bringing the dead back to life.
Tearing things up is easy. Creation? that's hard.But the demiplanes Sorcerers can create are "creation", and they're significantly more complicated than a simple meal. Even if it were a spell-level higher than the Divine version, I still think Wizards and Sorcerers should be able to summon up a meal.
It also strikes me as odd that none of the deities see fit to ensure that their followers have this ability. That fact makes the creation of food more rare than bringing the dead back to life.
Deities are very big on niche protection for their divine servants. Which means that arcane doesn't get to do what it does, and everything divine does as well.
And seriously, what sorcerer is going to fill up their precious spells known slots with the create demiplane spells?
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It also strikes me as odd that none of the deities see fit to ensure that their followers have this ability. That fact makes the creation of food more rare than bringing the dead back to life.
I agree. Sounds like a cry for a homebrew subdomain.
It also strikes me as odd that none of the deities see fit to ensure that their followers have this ability. That fact makes the creation of food more rare than bringing the dead back to life.I agree. Sounds like a cry for a homebrew subdomain.
So a foodie subdomain might have for its spells: Create Water, Purify Food and Drink, Dream Feast, Tears to Wine, Create Food and Water, Bountiful Banquet, Heroes' Feast, Create Lesser Demiplane, Create Demiplane.
If you don't mind becoming Intelligence-dependent instead of Charisma-dependent (actually, it's a pretty good deal, although the Hex substitute ability has some Charisma dependence), you might be interested in Ley Line Guardian Witch with the Healing Patron (spells by class level of gaining access: 2nd—remove fear, 4th—lesser restoration, 6th—remove disease, 8th—restoration, 10th—cleanse, 12th—pillar of life, 14th—greater restoration, 16th—mass cure critical wounds, 18th—true resurrection).
And this reminds me that I wish we had a Sorcerous Witch archetype that was different from Ley Line Guardian. Actually not sure whether it would be best to base it off Witch or Sorcerer, although I'm leaning towards the latter, and besides, Paizo seems to have decided (with the Scarred Witch Doctor Errata) that you're not allowed to have a Witch who can't spell.