Bill1138's page

Bill1138 wrote:

It also strikes me as odd that none of the deities see fit to ensure that their followers have this ability. That fact makes the creation of food more rare than bringing the dead back to life.

I agree. Sounds like a cry for a homebrew subdomain.

So a foodie subdomain might have for its spells: Create Water, Purify Food and Drink, Dream Feast, Tears to Wine, Create Food and Water, Bountiful Banquet, Heroes' Feast, Create Lesser Demiplane, Create Demiplane.

Tearing things up is easy. Creation? that's hard.

But the demiplanes Sorcerers can create are "creation", and they're significantly more complicated than a simple meal. Even if it were a spell-level higher than the Divine version, I still think Wizards and Sorcerers should be able to summon up a meal.

It also strikes me as odd that none of the deities see fit to ensure that their followers have this ability. That fact makes the creation of food more rare than bringing the dead back to life.

If I wanted a game with variants, I'd look at it, certainly. But I'd be a LOT more comfy with it if this bloodline worked like others -- if it provided a specific list of 9 spells as "bloodline" spells. Of course, then you can't tailor the archetype to a specific deity.

I think you'd be better off proposing a sorcerer archetype with a domain in place of most of the bloodline abilities & spells. That way there's no question of cherry-picking spells from a whole big list. There's a thematic integrity, just as with regular bloodlines, but enough variety to reflect different deities. Now how you integrate a domain & its abilities with a bloodline & its, I don't know. Have fun!

The main issue I have with just taking Domain spells on a Sorcerer is that none of them give you "Create Food and Water".

It really bugs me that a mighty Sorcerer who can evoke the power to tear reality can't manage to whip up a sandwich or glass of water.

If you simply allow a Sorceror to have all the cleric spells as known spells, then it is unbalancing. If you allow merely the hit point curing spells, then it's fine. Except Heal or Harm - those are better than anything else, and should not be allowed.

To reiterate, my suggestion ONLY gives the Sorcerer nine spells from the Cleric's spell list, spells which may not be exchanged when leveling up.

Nine cleric spells with max levels from 1-9 known is a far cry less than "all the cleric spells as known spells".

I don't see why it would need the restrictions you're insisting on. Maybe such restrictions would be appropriate for the Razmiran Sorcerer, but that's a whole different archetype, which grants a much more substantial pool of spells to cast.

My suggestion has no more spell options than any other Sorcerer. It simply replaces Bloodline spells with rarer utility spells and allows the character to ease the burden on the primary healer.

Ciaran Barnes,
I think 9 spells from the Cleric spell list would suffice for the type of character I had in mind without requiring the extra time to create a custom spell list for a new class.

I think switching out the entire spell list for Cleric Spells would essentially make the Sorcerer an ineffective Oracle, being as the lower level Cleric combat spells revolve around creating and enhancing arms and armor, and the Sorcerer is not nearly as equipped for close combat as the Oracle is.

Glarius,
How does the False Priest allow "substantially more divine spellcasting"? He gets "aid" and "remove disease" but for anything else he has to use an item like a scroll. It also loses Eschew Materials, which is a feature I particularly like about Sorcerers.

And why would removing statuses be a problem for a Sorcerer? Clerics and Oracles dip into Sorcerer/Wizard spells through Domains and Mysteries and it doesn't seem to be a problem... so why is it such a big deal for a Sorcerer to dip into Cleric spells?

Clerics and Oracles have several Divine spells of each level available to them each day, where what I proposed would have only one (formerly) Divine spell of each level available, and they wouldn't be exchangeable, so I don't see how it would be a better healer than any Oracle or Cleric.

Azten,
Oracles are Divine with a dash of Arcane, where this proposal is Arcane with a dash of Divine. I'd consider it the other side of the coin.

The concept is a character with a strong sorcerer bloodline being raised in service to a deity, and being gifted with the ability to merge a bit of what is typically divine magic with the character's innate arcane potential.

As a variant on the Empyreal Sorcerer, this Archetype would replace its bloodline spells with spells from the Cleric's spell list. It gives a bit of extra utility, allowing the Sorcerer to be a back-up healer (if desired) while not overshadowing the abilities of Clerics and Oracles.

Hypothetical, If a player asked you as the DM if they could play this variant in your game, would you allow it? Would you impose any restrictions? If so, what?

How available are +6 headbands in your games? I think your DMs are more generous than mine. The thought of finding or affording to buy one never occurred to me.

Having read through the spell lists, it appears to me that where the Oracle most benefits from Arcane Enlightenment would be the lower-level combat spells.

The Oracle has Restoration and utility spells for all levels.
The Oracle's upper-level combat spells are comparable to the Sorcerer's upper-level combat spells.
The Oracle's lower level combat spells are primarily summoning weapons/armor and magically enhancing them.

So gaining the Sorcerer's lower-level combat spells, wouldn't allowing the Oracle to fight at range (like a Sorcerer) for the lower levels be the most game-impacting effect?

Also, if the Oracle were to pick a Spirit Guide other than the Lore Spirit, the Oracle can still get 9th Sorcerer/Wizard spells like Time Stop without using Arcane Enlightenment, so keep that in mind.

Have you taken into account that the Oracle's spells are based on his Charisma, whereas these hypothetical Sorcerer spells require Int=10+(Spell Level)?

How about the character only getting a number of Sorcerer spells equal to the Wisdom modifier?

You're not going to have Oracles with 3+ spells from the Sorcerer/Wizard list casting 9th level spells because the point-buy system simply won't allow them to have the ability scores required to do so.

On top of that, the Oracle would be sacrificing 3 revelations from its Mystery for this. The Oracle is paying heavily for this power, and I would argue appropriately paid for and balanced relative to the Ancient Lorekeeper.

Note:
The following question is not regarding the "legality" of the interpretation, only the balance. If you see fit to respond, please keep that in mind.

Question:
If the Arcane Enlightenment Hex were house-ruled to grant a number of Sorcerer/Wizard spells to the Oracle's spell list and Spells known (for the day, these being removed if another Hex is chosen), how exactly would that make the Oracle overpowered?

I'm especially curious because the Oracle is giving up three Revelations of his/her Mystery for the spells, and even then the Oracle has to reduce the investment in the other attributes to bolster Intelligence and Wisdom to the point where the new spells become significant. For most characters this won't net them more than 1-3 spells, for which the highest level spell gained is no higher than 4.

I should have been more clear with the initial post (sorry about that), but fortunately you all figured it out.

If the rule worked for the Oracle, it would perfectly match the type of character I most want to play. But the general consensus is that it would not be read that way for organized play.

I appreciate that most of you have explained your position and acknowledged the potential ambiguity (at least as perceived by less-experienced players such as myself).

However, I'm not sure if I see how the New Spells FAQ directly relates to this topic, which leaves me still wandering why there isn't an FAQ or Errata for this specific topic, given how many times it has come up.

Why is there no FAQ or Errata on how these rules interact?

Without such a definitive statement, the loudest voices are asserting that said spells are not gained because there are no prepared spell slots, so spells being on the list of spells to prepare effectively don't exist.

Personally, it would make much more sense to make an Errata that says that in the case of a rule adding spells to a list of spells that may be prepared for a Spontaneous Caster, instead add those spells to the list of spells known.