Ok, last build for the night. This is another consideration I have for an upcoming PFS Emerald Spire game.
Well, I don't actually have a full build here but I have a solid concept. The idea is to go with Ectoplasmatist for a single level to get the Ectoplasmic Lashes, then 3 levels of Bladebound/Kensai Magus and make the Ectoplasmic Lash an intelligent weapon. Then the rest of the levels would go into more Ectoplasmatist.
The roleplay here is that the Lash is actually a disembodied tentacle of Cthulhu that whispers insane thoughts into the character's mind. It is doable with a Chaotic Neutral character. I wouldn't push the evil barrier, but would play heavily on the "the end is nigh" crazy sauce.
Conceptually I have posted several thoughts on the topic here and here.
I am torn on the idea of a Slashing Grace build for this. While the build is pretty MAD I don't think that Slashing Grace alone will solve the problem. It wouldn't work with Spell Combat but would work with Spiritual Combat. If I use a shield it wont work at all and I think the build would need it if I plan on getting into melee frequently (and I do). I could use a Buckler and the difference is fairly negligible.
Going 1 Ectoplasmatist, 3 Magus, 3 URogue is straight out. That is spreading it too thin. It does give me everything I want out of the concept but at too great of a cost and cuts the build FAR too thin. At least with the planned build I would be basically full 3/4 BAB with the free Weapon Focus from Kensai.
The major problems with the build are as follows:
1. If I don't go for a Slashing Grace build then I will need to have a good Strength to be able to hit consistently and have reasonable damage. I cannot forgo Con completely as this is a melee build. Int I need to be at least an 11 so that I can actually cast Magus spells and 13 if I want to go with a tripping build using Combat Expertise. Wis I need high to keep the DCs of the Spiritualist spells high. That makes Cha the dump stat and I will probably have to dump it hard. Even with min/maxing his ability scores I accept that the build isn't going to be very strong. My goal at this point is to mitigate the weaknesses of the concept.
2. Taking 3 levels of Bladebound/Kensai hurts the Spiritualist progression. It puts off the Ectoplasmic Armor, delays the only reasonable scaling increase of the main weapon by 3 levels and delays spellcasting.
3. I am at a bit of a loss of what to do with good feats for making the character effective at combat. The biggest obvious problem is going to be a low to hit bonus but other than pumping Str I don't have any way of reasonably improving that. Going Slashing Grace helps shore this up slightly but hurts in other ways. I have considered a Trip build but with a low CMB that will be hard to land. Going with a Dex based Slashing Grace build is counter intuitive to this until I could get Fury's Fall.
Still, with all of the problems considered I think the build has some merit. It will have stellar Fort and Will saves. If I go with a Dex based Slashing Grace build then Reflex wont be too shabby either. Weak defenses can be shored up nicely with spells. There are plenty of temporary hit point buffs, long duration buffs and the like to bring me close to a martial level. The problem, of course, being that I will likely have a 10min/level working day. It does have a fair amount of versatility especially with the selection of spell lists available for wand usage.
The real issue is that I am having trouble coming up with effective ways to capitalize on the few benefits the build offers. I like it from an RP perspective and really want to do what I can to get it to work from a mechanical perspective. I think I need some help on this one...
Anyway, how do you think this might work for an Emerald Spire game? I don't know what is included but would a Cthulhu worshiper put a kink in anything or might it work particularly well?
Bump.
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Help me Tacticslion, you are my only hope!
You can't worship Cthulhu in PFS to my knowledge.
Huh, why?
Even if the non-divine character pinky swears he isn't evil?
So, apparently the issue is the petty difference between "worship" and "venerate". So long as I use the word "venerate" it doesn't matter if my character uses the word "worship". Personally I think that is overly pedantic and childishly petty, but lets say for the sake of keeping this thread constructive that I am ok with that.
Barring deity choice, any other suggestions?
There's gotta be well over a hundred gods, or entities you can worship in PFS.
So I don't see why to make a mountain out of a mole hill. :-)
It's probably copyright reasons.
Can't you simply decline to worship any deity for mechanical purposes? That would seem to be what is meant when a deity is banned in PFS. You can say that you worship anyone or anything that you want, but if the GM raises a question, you can always point to "Deity: None" on your character sheet.
Cthulhu IS a Pathfinder deity.
Lovecraftian intellectual property is public domain which is why Paizo can use it in the first place.
The only issue is apparently that Cthulhu isn't on a super special list of allowed evil deities. That also doesn't matter so long as your character receives not mechanical benefits from worshipping the disallowed deity and your character is allowed to use the word "worship" but that vocabulary is banned from being uttered from a player's mouth in such a circumstance.
Like I said, I think that is overly pedantic and childishly petty, but for the sake of remaining constructive in this thread lets just say that I am ok with writing "none" in the religion line, but the character will have no qualms about stating outright that she "worships" Cthulhu.
....that is unless there is another appropriately tentacled deity that someone thinks might be more fitting to the concept?
Or better yet, mechanical input on the build as that is mostly what I'm here for. I don't mind roleplaying advice, it just isn't my primary goal.
Well, I threw some stuff together last night trying to prepare the character for the potential of starting play in a PFS Emerald Spire for tomorrow. I thought I had it all figured out and then while trying to sleep last night my busy mind kept me up with hanging up on some details that make it not work.
Here was my basic build idea:
Str 8
Dex 16+2
Con 13
Int 13
Wis 16
Cha 7
Ectoplasmatist 1, Bladebound/Kensai 3, then the rest Ectoplasmatist
Weapon Finesse (human)
Weapon Focus (Kensai)
Slashing Grace (1st)
Combat Expertise (3rd)
Improved Trip (5th)
Combat Reflexes (7th)
Fury's Fall (9th)
Greater Trip (11th)
I have ways of getting the to hit to a respectable level and could have made the trips land fairly reliably. Here is the problem that my half asleep mind discovered last night. I had planned on going with Tentacle/Buckler but the Canny Defense ability from Kensai doesn't work with a Buckler. I had planned on going with a chain shirt until the Ectoplasmic Armor came online and then go armorless. The loss of +3 bonus from Int to AC makes this an awful lot less appealing.
So then I was trying to think of how to fix it. Well, I could lose the Buckler in favor of Canny Defense. Then I have a hand free that I'm not using for anything. I don't like that. I would rather go TWF with 2 tentacles or go with a Style feat to use that hand for something. Well that gets me thinking about a feat chain like Crane Style. But if I go that route I would either have to sink a feat into Improved Unarmed Strike or take a level of Monk. Monk actually doesn't sound like a terrible idea. It gives me free IUS and if I go with Master of Many Styles it would give me my Style feat for free. I would also get my Wis, Dex and 3 points of Int to AC. That is actually pretty damned good.
...the downfall is that there is no way I would fit Monk in until 5th level because I want to get my black blade tentacle online ASAP. Still 5th isn't too bad, but it does just put off the rest of my Ectoplasmatist for longer than I'd like. It is also another 3/4 BAB class so I take a greater hit to my to hit bonus and puts off my iterative even longer. I guess it helps with saves by I was already doing pretty good in that department. Going with this concept I would also have to forgo the tripping concept. Also if I went Crane Style I would take yet another drop in my to-hit bonus for having to fight defensively.
I could use another Style line of feats, I guess. I'm not sure what. Panther maybe? I could try to combine it with Circling Mongoose? Nah... that doesn't work with Spell/Spiritual Combat. Piss. I dunno. I feel like I'm back to the drawing board again here. Maybe I should just stick with the build above and not worry about the loss of 3 AC.
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Cthulhu and the other Great Old Ones / Outer Gods are not permitted as objects of worship in PFS mainly because they are utterly alien and often intent on the total annihilation of life, the universe and everything. Not really conducive to "explore, report. cooperate." There was a thread on the subject recently.
If you want an alternative tentacled god that is more compatible with the Society, Besmara works. I don't know if she's ever depicted with actual tentacles herself, but see the Kraken Caller druid archetype. The demon lord Dagon is also allowed.
supervillan: You may have noticed I am deeply involved in the thread you mention. What you say is not true. As I have already stated, you can "venerate" (aka worship) whatever deity you wish.
I will point out again that characters do not know the rules of the game much less that they are part of a game at all. The character does not aknowledge a difference between "venerate" and "worship".
Sure they do, if they worship something they get rewarded with spells and cool powers.
If they merely venerate or pay lip service to something they don't.
They can still have spells and cool powers but not from that something and when they die that something isn't responsible for what happens to them in the ever after.
You (the proverbial you, not you specifically) don't get to say what my character believes. That is fully under my own control and no one else.
If I want my character to believe that she receives her powers from the deity that she venerates then there is nothing illegal about that. There is also nothing anyone can do to control my fictional character's inner thoughts much less even know what they are unless I tell you. Same goes for what word my character uses to describe how she actively regards with respect or reveres her deity.
The only control PFS lays down is that they want ME (not my character, me as a player) to use the word "venerate" rather than "worship". And for like the 5th time in this thread alone, can we move on with the assumption that I am fine with that, please?
I suspect one reason not to allow great old ones as PFS gods is that the types of players who insist on doing it tend to be correlated with extreme antisocial tendencies and the inability to follow rules and social norms. It's an effective way to screen out people you don't want to play with anyway.
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supervillan: You may have noticed I am deeply involved in the thread you mention. What you say is not true. As I have already stated, you can "venerate" (aka worship) whatever deity you wish.
I will point out again that characters do not know the rules of the game much less that they are part of a game at all. The character does not aknowledge a difference between "venerate" and "worship".
Actually I was thinking of this thread.
Dunno what you think I've said is not true. That you're not allowed to worship Great Old Ones in PFS? Or that said elder evils are not actually utterly alien incomprehensible beings intent on the annihilation of the multiverse? Or that it's not true that a Cthulhu worshipper would have a hard time Exploring Reporting and Cooperating?
Characters can worship any deity listed in the table of gods in the Core Rulebook, Pathfinder Campaign Setting: The Inner Sea World Guide, Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Gods and Magic, or any other source listed in the Additional
Resources document.
Venerate: Venerate refers to the relationship between a PC and a specific deity, pantheon, or philosophy of some sort where the PC follows the cause but gains no specific mechanical reward as a result of doing so. Player characters are able to venerate any Golarion specific deity, pantheon, or philosophy they wish without alignment concern.
Gods: all of the gods listed in the appendix are legal choices except daemon harbingers, great old ones, infernal dukes, malebranche, nascent demon lords, orc deities, outer gods, qlippoth lords, and whore queens. A PC may worship a dead deity, but such gods grant no spells or other benefits
Seems clear enough to me.
There is a difference between "venerate" and "worship" in PFS, set out in the Guide. The two things are not the same.
Your concept will work with Besmara or Dagon as the source of your powers, but not Cthulhu. Maybe your character's head-canon is that his powers come from Cthulhu, but the actual source is Besmara or Dagon. And as far as I can make out the Ectoplasmatist doesn't require a divine source of power anyway. Seems like that's a solution? My concern would be that even "venerating" Cthulhu may lead to a character acting contrary to the overall ethos of the Society.
Sidetrack: arguably if you're a dark tapestry Oracle the Great Old Ones might be the source of your Oracle powers, but you cannot select a great old one or elder god to worship in any event.
Actually the GM, as well Campaign Leadership if you're playing in PFS, do have say in what your character believes.
You: I follow Cthulhu.
GM: No.
That is not true.
Venerate: Venerate refers to the relationship between
a PC and a specific deity, pantheon, or philosophy of
some sort where the PC follows the cause but gains
no specific mechanical reward as a result of doing so.
Player characters are able to venerate any Golarion-
specific deity, pantheon, or philosophy they wish without
alignment concern.
supervillan: I feel like you need to re-read some things. I am not playing a divine class. I gain no mechanical benefit from worshipping (actually "venerating") Cthulhu. It is also perfectly legal for my character to be under the delusion that she derives her powers from Cthulhu even though mechanically she does not.
Can we please get back to mechanics now?
It's always funny when people harass and boss around a player for trying to be creative.
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You could go strength/wisdom high, grab IUS, Snake Style & maybe Deflect Arrows for at least some defence and just not have a great dexterity. With reach maybe you can avoid getting full attacks made on you.
Thank you, MageHunter.
For reference this is the current build I have settled on:
Str 8
Dex 16+2
Con 13
Int 13
Wis 16
Cha 7
Leveling in this order:
Ectoplasmatist 1
Bladebound/Kensai 3
Master of Many Styles Monk 1
The rest all Ectoplasmatist
Feats in this order:
Weapon Finesse (human)
Combat Reflexes (1st)
Weapon Focus (Kensai)
Slashing Grace (3rd)
Improved Unarmed Strike (bonus)
Crane Style (bonus)
Snapping Turtle Style (5th)
Deflect Arrows (7th)
Crane Wing (9th)
Weapon Trick: Stylish Riposte (11th)
Crane Riposte (13th)
Mark Carlson 255: I play with one primary group but travel a bit around the state so would prefer to avoid surprises before hand. I typically post on the boards about anything I find questionable to iron it out before making the character. So far with this one I have met with a stranger amount of resistance than I thought I would but most of it is "I don't like it as it clashes with my sensibilities" or "Most people are not responsible enough to play that kind of character" not "your concept is illegal for society play". Although, as you can see, there have been some who are mistaken about it being illegal and are trying to insist that I desist. ;)
avr: Ugh. If I go with Str then that makes the character more MAD. I would need Str for hit/damage, Dex for AC and my typically normally low Ref saves, Con due to being a melee with mediocre HD, Wis due to being a Wis caster, at least a passable Int to get Magus spells at all. That is too many stats to have high. I would prefer to go Dex build on this one to at least knock one stat out of the equation.
I hear what you are saying with Snake Style, but that is one hit per turn. Deflect Arrows helps there too but the standing AC would be pretty low. Also it is still throwing more feats at the same issue.
Also I have another character that uses Snake Style and Deflect Arrows.
Looks clear to me... In one thread the OP wants one discussion, and this one wants a different one...
Anyways to make the stats easier I recommended the Monk dip for WIS to AC, but the free bonus feats can actually help out by nabbing some nifty style feats down the road. Plus, saves you feats on going DEX-based. You can also get some handy things like stunning fist. Just a single level. Unchained even to maintain BAB. Certain archetypes can get rid of flurry for something more worthwhile. I believe the Sensei and MoMS monk give it up, can't remember what for.
You need STR, WIS, CON, & a smattering of INT. You'll likely have to dump Charisma since DEX is not something you want to dump. I might go with that dual bonus Human alternate trait or something. If you trust your defensive spells and AC, CON doesn't have to be that high.
Isn't Kthulku Cthulhu's Herald?