Like deadbeat doom said, They can't be spellcrafted. Since you can spellcraft manifestations to ID the spell, it would seem that SU's wouldn't have any since they can't be identified.manefestations are for spells and SLA, not for SU.Ah... Why?
Whatever the case, these manifestations are obviously magic of some kind, even to the uninitiated; this prevents spellcasters that use spell-like abilities, psychic magic, and the like from running completely amok against non-spellcasters in a non-combat situation.Why doesn't SU fall under "and the like"? Why would a SLA that makes a bolt of fire cause manifestations but a SU bolt of fire not? I see nothing under Supernatural Abilities to suggest it differs from Spell-Like Abilities in methods of detection. If it's been clarified, would you point me to where. As-is, it reads to me that you need special abilities to use magic without a manifestation and SU are 'magical but not spell-like'.
As Plausible Pseudonym points out, even (ex) abilities like Combat Expertise can be detected and identified. I don't see why (su) would get a pass from identification. My error seems to be saying spellcraft, as it seems that it falls under Know (arcana) instead, but it still has some kind of 'manifestation'. It DOES say that it's "similar to how Spellcraft can be used to identify a spell" after all so I don't think what I'm saying is out of line.
Derklord: It's 'observable' OR 'variable modifier'. Evil eye allows a 'variable modifier a character must choose' of "AC, ability checks, attack rolls, saving throws, or skill checks". As such, it allows a Know check even if it's deemed un-'observable'. And it's not based on saves but on the use of the ability. "observe the feats or class features being used" happens before saves are made.
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No, on a failed save, Thrump doesn't notice anything. On a successful save, Thrump notices that something hostile tried to affect him, but nothing more than that.
If a check to identify is even possibly depends on if the GM uses those rules, and if he counts hexes as "observable".
On a failed save Thrump notice the obvious effects but don't know what caused them. He can have suspicions if they are SLA or spells as the action of casting them is evident. For SU abilities it varies greatly.
If your left eye fire a gout of flame he will notice that, it you look bad him and it start to be unlucky, probably he will not. He can have his suspicions, but no direct evidence.Probably the successful use of skills like sense motive, knowledge arcana and so on will allow him to make a decent guess, but that depend on the situation.
Someone making a save knows what they are saving vs.
source?
After all, people failing against charm person and suggestion realize only AFTER the effect ends... and I don't remember seeing any text specifying that a person making a save knows what it is at the time, unless it's quite obvious (falling into a pit, a fireball spell or dragon breath), regardless of whether they succeed.
Secret saves and checks are totally a thing.
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Someone making a save knows what they are saving vs.
source?
After all, people failing against charm person and suggestion realize only AFTER the effect ends... and I don't remember seeing any text specifying that a person making a save knows what it is at the time, unless it's quite obvious (falling into a pit, a fireball spell or dragon breath), regardless of whether they succeed.
The mechanics of making a save.
With the quantity of modifiers and abilities that allow conditional modifiers to saves if the player don't know against what kind of attack he is saving the game become implayable"Save"
"I have a +5 to fort, +7 to Ref, +10 to will, +2 if it is a clerical spell, +2 if it is a evil spellcaster, +2 vs diseases, I am immune to control by evil spellcasters thanks to my protection from evil, a bonus if it is a trap, I have drunk an antidote, so i have a +5 vs poison. I have rolled a 5."
The GM spend some time doing the math (hopefully without errors).
"You fail."
"It is a will save? I have Improved iron will."
"No."
Vs
"Roll a fortitude save, it is a poison:"
Player roll a5, add the modifiers that he has already written down (hopefully).
"15"
"You fail."
Sorry, but really you will ask the GM to keep a running tally of all the saves, with all the current modifiers, especially as they can vary round by round?
Thinks like Improved iron will and a lot of one shot bonuses, to work, require a decision character, so the knowledge of the kind of attack that targeted him.
Same thing for the abilities that allow a reroll, you need to know the roll result (not the outcome of the save, the number on the dice) and you need to have a idea of how crucial is the save.
Most of the time I will not try a reroll against a spell dealing hit point damage. Against a spell requiring a will save (even if I don't know what is the spell)? Probable.
Just because the player knows his character made a save doesn't mean the character knows.
And it's not based on saves but on the use of the ability. "observe the feats or class features being used" happens before saves are made.
Well, I didn't claim otherwise.
I think's it's quite a stretch to call a basic choice a "variable modifier", but whatever.
Just because the player knows his character made a save doesn't mean the character knows.
And it's not based on saves but on the use of the ability. "observe the feats or class features being used" happens before saves are made.Well, I didn't claim otherwise.
I think's it's quite a stretch to call a basic choice a "variable modifier", but whatever.
The variable modifier is that the target has penalties on him after the use of the ability, it's not an constantly active effect where there isn't something changing and thus noticeable
Not reading through the entire thread, but I know the Shaman has specific flavour text explaining that his hexes are clearly visible, depending on the spirit they've chosen:
Flame: When she calls upon one of this spirit's abilities, a hungry spectral flame dances around her body.
Heavens: When she calls upon one of this spirit's abilities, her eyes turn pitch black and the colors around her drain for a brief moment.
Waves: When she calls upon one of this spirit's abilities, floating orbs dance about her, sublimating between icy crystals, misty vapors, and globules of water.
So I'd say at least in the Shaman's case the effect's origins are clearly visible, even if the target doesn't know what happened. I'd say the Witch has a similar thing, even if it isn't spelled out. If she's invisible, it's another story, but if the target can see the Witch, he can probably figure out where it came from.