I realize this isn't the most optimal route by any means, but I think it would be cool to at least try. My current idea is a wizard of the abjuration (Counterspell) school for the immediate counters. I was wondering if there were any better classes for this, or any useful options aside from the ones in this thread. Thanks!
It may be fun to theory craft and for that I would look at the Arcanist or Exploiter Wizard. There are some decent exploits for counterspelling.
On actual playability. Not optimal is fine, this steps into the realm of rubbish, your character will be built towards handling a specific type of attack, you need to give up your go to do that and then they may not cast the spell or being the bad guy's one you don't have the power to stop.
Readying an action to cast fireball or lightning bolt will be better as they attempt to cast.
Thus going for options like counter spelling as an immediate action. Thanks for the tip about exploits
If you allow 3rd party I recommend looking up Encylopedia Arcana Abjuration. Makes it almost ok
Pathfinder stuff
There is a few feats in Monster Summoners Handbook that help
Arcanist Exploits
Early intro Mystic theurge gives you a huge amount of spell slots. Otherwise grab a staff of dispel magic or three
I reccomend getting a pet that scales off level via feats. Mauler familiar or an animal companion should do the trick. Basically counterspelling only works if your able to provide extra damage while your doing so
Dweomer Retaliation is a must
Champions of Balance has several counterspelling options
Spell Specialization(dispel magic) + Spell Perfection
Go into arcane archer at lv13. Ready an action to fire an antimagic field arrow at the targets square
Deliver touch spells excellent enclosure(rivals guide) is another complete shutdown
Another option is abusing familiar spell rods. Basically you let your familiar counterspell while you go to town
I played a 3.5 elf druid with the Improved Counterspell feat. It was fun. I could trade flamestrikes for enemy fireballs and lightning bolts.
Even more importantly, while your PC is standing around, twiddling your thumbs waiting for someone to cast a spell, your animal companion and summoned nature allies are doing the active thing, fighting crime and monsters whose lairs you've invaded. When not fighting spellchuckers, you can wildshape and do melee, chuck spells of your own, heal, buff, etc.
I'm sure there are lots of shiny new feats and classes and archetypes that also do the counterspell thing.
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It may be fun to theory craft and for that I would look at the Arcanist or Exploiter Wizard. There are some decent exploits for counterspelling.
On actual playability. Not optimal is fine, this steps into the realm of rubbish, your character will be built towards handling a specific type of attack, you need to give up your go to do that and then they may not cast the spell or being the bad guy's one you don't have the power to stop.
Readying an action to cast fireball or lightning bolt will be better as they attempt to cast.
So like, when did spellcasting become so weak?
And yes, generally just forcing a really high concentration check is easier. Readied action magic missiles are a thing and have been since second edition. Not sure about 1st.
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Arcanist has an exploit that allows them to counterspell as an immediate action with a slot one level higher than the spell to be countered and then two greater exploits that counter the exploit's cost and then allow it to be done with a slot of the same level.
In theory, you could use those exploits with exploiter wizard specializing in abjuration (counterspell), but it's not clear that exploiter wizards gain access to greater exploits (which make the strategy much better at high levels) or how they would use it at all since it requires the expenditure of "an arcanist spell slot..." which wizards don't have. Maybe a reasonable DM would rule that a wizard can expend any prepared spell of the appropriate level in place of the spell slot, but by RAW, I don't think a wizard can actually use that exploit. Also, I don't think that the wizard actually gets significantly better at counterspelling by virtue of the abjuration (counterspell) specialization, so you might be better off just running with a non-counterspell specialization.
Overall, I think Arcanist is a very strong option for making this strategy work and for them it doesn't actually require a lot of resources, so you can also be good at other things.
It may be fun to theory craft and for that I would look at the Arcanist or Exploiter Wizard. There are some decent exploits for counterspelling.
On actual playability. Not optimal is fine, this steps into the realm of rubbish, your character will be built towards handling a specific type of attack, you need to give up your go to do that and then they may not cast the spell or being the bad guy's one you don't have the power to stop.
Readying an action to cast fireball or lightning bolt will be better as they attempt to cast.
So like, when did spellcasting become so weak?
And yes, generally just forcing a really high concentration check is easier. Readied action magic missiles are a thing and have been since second edition. Not sure about 1st.
Terrible comparison. When did getting power attacked by an enemy become weak? never. Your still building around handling a specific type of attack and as you agree there are better way's of dealing with it.
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If we operate under the assumption that the hallmark arguments of the optimizer are true, then stopping an enemy caster from being able to destroy one or more and up to your entire party via their standard action is arguably a very powerful and useful endeavor.
If rocket tag is true, then this becomes more potent at higher level because your team is deal with one fewer rocket. Granted so is the enemy team, so this probably balances out.
Also, aren't there several spells that require a standard action to cast that do exactly what I have described above? Single target spells designed to neutralize an enemy in various ways are abundant in the game. Similarly, area of effect spells that can neutralie an entire party definitely exist and do so in copious amounts and are available to quite a great many of the classes capable of using magic at all.
Then there is the argument that at higher level many monsters come with strong and potent spell like abilities (which I believe can be countered but cannot be used to counter-I admittedly may be incorrect on this). But hey, preventing that monster from using it is no good?
I agree that wasting your turn waiting for an enemy to maybe cast a spell that you will then attempt to stop from happening may not be super fun or awesome seeming- at least on the surface. But optimally? The chance that an enemy is capable of casting a spell increases dramatically with character level and the odds that those enemies attempt to use those spell like abilities to swing an entire encounter in their favor increases as well. If this is not correct, then the arguments pertaining to powerful spell-capable monsters at higher levels, power wizards as threats and so on and so forth, are wrong. Hence- when did spellcasting become so weak that stopping a spell that could end your team was not worth the effort of doing so? If one party member sacrifices their standard action every round to ensure that the magical rockets aren't tagging- then I fail to comprehend (conceptually and based on frequent optimizer arguments and statements) how this is somehow not very good.
You- stand there and stop him from making everyone have to roll up new character sheets.
Nah. I got better things to do.
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I admittedly exaggerate but only to demonstrate my point more clearly. I am arguing from the optimization standpoint using the premis stated above, not that there are better ways to counter or what have you but simply that the cumbersome, action inneficient version is either good because of all the things optimizers swear by their god Timmy are true, or it's not because those sworn oaths were to a false god who grants no domains.
The only alternative here is if the bonuses to counterspelling are unreliable enough to not make it worth using a standard action and waiting around. I would argue that reliable is different from person to person (I start at 50% for something to be worth bothering to do).
I made a master dispeller once. He was one of the more fun characters I've ever played.
My current plan is to go Arcanist (School Savant). That should get me immediate action counters from two sources (Counterspell Subschool and Counterspell exploit), as well as numerous Counterspell goodies. I'm pretty sure I have enough options to boost counterspelling for the time being. Now I need to figure out how to deal with spending approximately twice as many spells as other casters.
Edit: I also have little experience with casters, despite lurking on many an optimization thread, so the general system of souping up a spell goes straight over my head. In the interest of not derailing the thread, could someone just post a link to an explanation?
Also, I'm making a counterspell-focused character regardless, so while other tactics of shutting down an enemy spellcaster are useful for future spellcasters, they don't really help me now.
I will check Sela out when I am home. But I will say that I had an idea for a counterspeller who used their standard to counter but was able to participate in some other way despite that. Wish I could remember what I had up my sleeve.
Going druid and using your animal companion and/or summoned nature allies to fight while you ready an action to dispel using Improved Counterspell? ;-)
It's both a fun and powerful option AND makes your "table time" more efficient so everyone else gets their turn in a timely manner.
I once played a druid and fortunately I wrote down a separate character sheet for my animal companion and pre-statted both my common summons and wildshapes for efficiency.
That's the other option I've been seeing, but I prefer this one, mostly out of personal preference.
Staff of Dispel Magic CL8 19200gp market price. Adds up to 10 counterspells per day. If your willing to go exploit wizard you can make a staff of Mneomic Enhancer CL8 25600gp. Another option is to use early entry Arcane Class+ Cleric so you have double a normal casters spells and only delay spell advancement by 1 CL. The feat animal ally gives an animal companion that scales off total level though it does have 1 feat tax. You can compensate for this by taking improved initiative(any combat feat will do just assuming improved initiative atm) on a +1 training gauntlet 8300gp. Summon monster spells just keep on giving if you can cast one in preperation for combat. I did a gish counterspeller once. Basically an attacks of opportunity build that spent his standard actions to prep a counter spell. Basically forced a lose lose situation for any caster I could get next to. Familiars also help a ton. With UMD they can fill in as a mini wizard while you shut down the actual enemy wizard
Thanks Dastis, especially for the action economy stuff. Why would I want the staff of mnemonic enhancer though? Dispel magic is cheaper by a good 6k.
Also, it looks to me like exploiter wizard loses out on two important things to this build: greater exploits, and an arcane school. The arcane school I could probably do without, but greater exploits are too good.
@Ravingdork: Thanks for Sela
@Ravingdork, where did Dispel Focus come from? I can't find it on the srd.
@Ravingdork, where did Dispel Focus come from? I can't find it on the srd.
They are from Monster Summoner's Handbook.
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Thanks, I forgot about AoN
My 2cp:
The best counterspeller (spell-wise) will be a spontaneous caster, who does not have these "oh, I dont have the right spell anymore" moments.
The best option is the arcanist, though, since his exploit is better than the standard procedure, although he has the least spells.
In practice, counterspelling is very niche. I was prepared to do it, and even now, while the campaign has hit 18th level, I have yet to counter something. It is usually better to do something on my own instead of waiting and hoping I can stop a spell, that may never come. And in many fights, no spell will ever come, or is so trivial that it needs no counter (like fireball vs resist fire at 11th level). In the other kind of fight, where everyone can cast spells, it is nearly useless: do you counter opponent A, B, C or D? Trying to counter one of four spells is definitely worse than frying the four myself. And the weight here is on "trying" - dispel magic can work against anything, but its a check, and who knows if you have one of the automatic counters at hand. And if you do, it is almost always better to use it on the enemy. Last, but not least, many foes are spontaneous casters. Stopping one spell from them does not rob them of their best shot like a wizard, they have more of the same.
Counterspelling itself is prone to various problems, which prevent it from being used, too. There is for example that you have to see your target, so fog, darkness, illusions or invisibility (greater) can be used to negate that. Having a caster like the medusa in one of the APs is another tricky problem, as looking at her is fatal.
Keep that in mind before you spend as much as a single feat on that path.
That's why the reactionary immediate counters are so nice. I doubt I would be doing it much outside of using those.
Mneomic Enhancer is nice because it literally fills in any slot. To me it just acts as a crap ton of pearls of power. For a wizard this means they can prepare several different spells and pick which ones to restore. Can also be used to restore several lower level slots. Though I do agree that the arguments for Arcanist are far better than Wizard in the case. If your DM will let you use 3P stuff I do very much recommend the Encyclopedia Arcana though
5th Edition has a counterspell spell that is cast as a reaction (PF immediate action) that is 3rd level and automatically cancels out a spell of 3rd level or lower. If the spell to be canceled is 4th or higher, you make a check, or use an appropriately higher spell slot to cancel it out. It's really fun and easy. High level abjuration wizards get a bonus on the check if they don't want to use a higher level slot.
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Nice. That's actually really nice.
People also forget that just because an enemy is high level and can cast spells does not mean that he will sit there and just throw out high level, uncounterable magic because his cr is 3 higher and he can.
Intelligent enemies utilize all of those lower level spells just like players do. Magic missile still has its uses, so does Shield, Mage Armor, Dispel Magic, Scorching Ray, Fireball, and on and on. And if you think that low-level buffs or other magics are useless and meaningless and not worth countering then try imagining nearly any optimized character being stripped of those things or options or their access. I hear Fly is useful sometimes. Oh, and Enlarge...what was it? And why spend your action stopping an enemies Haste or Slow spell? But hey, let's not counterspell any of those because none of those spells (let's not even get into metamagic) are worth a standard action or less from your caster....
Counterspelling is solid. It's limited in that it's harder to control but it's actually really solid. I will admit that specific campaigns and gm styles may make it useless and silly, and obviously random encounters may never work out to your strength, but a paladins' smite is useless when random encounters keep sending elementals and animals and magical beasts and fey. Also, you're still (probably) a full caster so unless that is somehow no longer relevant, you can just look at the spell-less giant scorpion and force it to make a save or be your pet or transform into a rideable pony for your niece.
Now, I've made this claim all in concept and rough memory of having tried this before. I don't actually recall the numbers. But I believe a well-built counterspeller can be successful at least 60% of the time and up to 75-80% if memory serves. Good enough.
I've seen the 5e spell, and I agree it's pretty cool. I'm also starting in a 5e campaign soon here... Now I'm conflicted.
While I decide if I'm just going to make an abjurer for the 5e game, let me ask you guys a rules question. Based on the wording of the counterspell exploit, what, if anything, can I do to boost it? It doesn't look like I am actually casting any spell, I'm just expending resources to generate a similar effect as I read it.
I've pretty much switched all the way over to 5th Edition, so my PF rules knowledge is so-so nowadays.
I want to play a mountain dwarf abjurer gish. Starting out in Medium Armor and Axe, then relying on shocking grasp after 5th level, probably. I would primarily use shield, misty step, counterspell and want to take Toughness, War Caster, and maybe even Resilient (Con). It really depends on how well I roll. I had a PF dwarf barbarian 1/magus 6 that was fun.
I almost pointed out the lack of BAB there, even in the mindset of 5e. That looks pretty interesting to me, I don't have enough experience with 5e to know how good it is though.
It won't get Extra Attacks or Sneak Attack damage, so its damage output might not be up to snuff. But with a decent Con, Arcane Ward, and Toughness, it will have tank-like hit points. And with Medium Armor, a decent Dex, and access to the shield spell, AC should be OK.
But it should be able to "nova" by casting spells.
I think it might be a fun 5th or 6th member of a well-balanced party. Also, I've played in a "well-balanced group" where our blaster was a divination specialist, and it worked out OK.
I also want to try a Wood Elf Circle of the Moon Druid battlefield controller/wildshaper, a Drow or Tiefling Bard-Lock de-buffer, and a Wood Elf Monk speed freak.
5e builds: bard rein supreme across the board. College of lore grab counterspell. Lv10 grab some of the OP lv5 paladin spells and or death ward. Lv14 and 18 grab the wizard spells that make them gods. In short cutting words shuts down any martial while counterspells shuts down any caster. Use your standard actions to play a god wizard. Using feats + College of lore you can grab find familiar, find mount, eldritch blast, and guidance. This gives you the best action economy in the game, makes you the best skill monkey, best reactionist, and have the best spell list while being a full lv9 caster. If you want to trade the paladin mount you can grab haste making you equal ANY non fighter in martial skill.
In short lore bard reigns supreme. Only specialized builds can out perform him in specific specific tasks
Yeah, Lore Bards sound like a ton of fun!
A half-elf one can get 10 skill proficiencies, and an alternate human with the Skilled feat can get 12!