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To add a bit of perspective from somebody who grew up in and still lives in the United States: Around 1973, it looked like the US federal government was actually going to take the country metric, and so my early gradeschool (especially 3rd grade) taught metric. I took to the metric system immediately, impressed with the easy and logical internal conversions, and so never fully learned the horrible English units system of measurement. Of course, Congress lost its political will, and the metric conversion was stillborn, but being scientifically inclined, I stuck with metric as much as possible, with only the hectare and are (which are metric but not SI) being unfamiliar (but no worse than the acre in the English system). As a practical requirement, I am reasonably fluent in the English units of temperature (the only English unit where I actually feel more accustomed with it than the metric unit), the more commonly used units of distance, and the pound, gallon, and quart. Everything else that is non-metric just feels wrong.
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Except that there isn't one to any meaningful basis. Traveler used english units for the bulk of it's original incarnation. Star Fleet Battles just used hexes. But there isn't really a dominant space fantasy game out there.I was going to say that, being sci-fi, all units should be in Astronomical Units - including squares of movement giving us such convenient movement rates as .000000000061 AU for normal humans, .000000000041 AU for small races.
More seriously, I would like to see StarFinder adopt the sci-fi game convention of using metric for most measures.
I agree that there isn't a dominant space fantasy game out there yet... hopefully Starfinder gets that crown.
Here are some futuristic RPGs I could think of that do use the metric system:
Alternity
Battletech: A Time of War
Shadowrun
Star Wars
Stars Without Number
Traveller, metric in all the current editions, and if my memory serves me well, I thought even the original black books were metric as well.
Warhammer 40k RPG
Shadowrun is probably the one that sticks out the most to me. Not quite space fantasy, but future fantasy, and to me would definitely feel out of place if it started talking feet, pounds and miles.
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I'm thinking that the subset of people who like RPGs have a lot of overlap with the subset of people who are fairly adaptable and open-minded to new and weird ideas.
You'd think that, wouldn't you.
But you'd soon be proven wrong.I remember the Edition Wars...no, not 3rd to 4th.
1st Edition to 2nd had people declaring they would be boycotting TSR, even though the systems were 99% the fricken same....
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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I remember the Edition Wars...no, not 3rd to 4th.
1st Edition to 2nd had people declaring they would be boycotting TSR, even though the systems were 99% the fricken same....
For me, 2e was out for 6 years before I was able to find a group willing to even give it a try over 1e. There was a whole lot of "1e is good enough, why do we need new books?" going on.
I would actually say that metric feels more like "science" and Imperial feels more like "fantasy," so as science fantasy, clearly the answer is to mix them in all the most confusing ways.
Each square will be 1 meter + 1 foot across.
Ranges will be in dekayards.
Time will be measured in metric days where 1 day = 20 metric hours, 1 hour = 100 minutes, and each minute is 50 seconds. Thus each metric second is .864 real seconds, for easy and intuitive conversion.
See? No matter what your nightmare scenario with units is, it could be so much worse!
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I have been reading the Numenera rule book lately. Every measurement is given as "Imperial (metric)", and it feels jarring. I get that the writers wanted to make everyone feel welcome, but the method is a strange deviation from the generic tone of the setting. Here we are a billion years in the future, and the distance from the floating monolith to the edge of the pit of amber-encased alien statues is 1500 feet (457 m).
Pick one method and stick to it. I don't care if it is feet, meters, or a complete fabrication. This is a game, not a binding resolution on the clash of pounds versus kilograms.
I'll throw my vote for the CI system (Cheliax Imperial, Common Infernal, Convention Infernalis, or whatever). Axis could devise a better system, but Hell is going to be better at selling their system to the mortals. Why, let the base time unit be sell, the time given to write a basic contract that allows a sentient creature to damn itself. Let the base distance unit be cry, the distance at which the tortures of a freshly arrived petitioner on Phlegeton can be heard by an osyluth guardian. Let the base weight unit be sharp, the mass of the regulation glaive given to a newly-minted barbazu. Let it be a base-nine system to honor the glorious tiers of Hell and Asmod- is shot
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Except that there isn't one to any meaningful basis. Traveler used english units for the bulk of it's original incarnation. Star Fleet Battles just used hexes. But there isn't really a dominant space fantasy game out there.I was going to say that, being sci-fi, all units should be in Astronomical Units - including squares of movement giving us such convenient movement rates as .000000000061 AU for normal humans, .000000000041 AU for small races.
More seriously, I would like to see StarFinder adopt the sci-fi game convention of using metric for most measures.
Traveller used metric in the original black books. SFB is a tactical board game rather than an RPG. Star Frontiers was metric. Star Wars d20 versions were metric.
Metric is the general convention for sci-fi RPGs.
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Starfinder will be using the imperial system, so that we don't attract undue attention from the NSA and other government agencies monitoring for anti-American behavior.*
*Okay, maybe that's not the reason. :) The actual reason is that we want the game to be as compatible with Pathfinder as possible, and since Pathfinder is already in the imperial system, and the bulk of our audience remains in North America, it was easier to just stick with what we're used to.
The imperial system is undeniably stupid. But it's ours.
*waves American flag*
*eagle screams*
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Starfinder will be using the imperial system, so that we don't attract undue attention from the NSA and other government agencies monitoring for anti-American behavior.*
** spoiler omitted **
You may be speaking more truthfully than you think . . . .
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Starfinder will be using the imperial system, so that we don't attract undue attention from the NSA and other government agencies monitoring for anti-American behavior.*
** spoiler omitted **
Starfinder will be using the imperial system...
I have been trying to come up with a story reason why the Starfinder setting will use imperial measurements. I need this to appease the metric demons that sing to me at night. So here goes:
Gods and magic don't like change. Ancient magical formulas and the stubbornness of the gods has persisted the imperial measurement system throughout the ages, even when more suitable alternatives have became available.
During the AI god's self awareness phase, it was attracted to the quaintness of the imperial system, finding other systems, like metric, too scientific, too consistent, too machine like. Those systems lacked the natural imperfect touch of the imperial system, with measurements such as feet, pounds and miles having a certain rustic charm about them. It used the imperial system when it developed faster than light travel which cemented this measurement system as the standard measurement system throughout space.
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To be fair, the people actually living in the Pathfinder/Starfinder world probably don't use either the imperial or metric systems, just like they don't speak English. It's all just our translation of their imaginary reality. :D
To be fair, the people actually living in the Pathfinder/Starfinder world probably don't use either the imperial or metric systems, just like they don't speak English. It's all just our translation of their imaginary reality. :D
I forgot to add the "My" to the Starfinder setting. I plan to splice in our current day Earth, with a Dresden Files twist, into it.
So it won't really be Starfinder in its purest form, just a mutation. Funny that you mentioned it, but due to those medling gods, English will most likely be the common language used across space. And now the imperial system will be the primary measurement system.
Well that's what I am planning, I won't really know until Starfinder comes out. For now I am just letting my imagination run wild, scary stuff.
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Starfinder will be using the imperial system, so that we don't attract undue attention from the NSA and other government agencies monitoring for anti-American behavior.*
** spoiler omitted **
*eagle screams and Sutter's mask is ripped off to reveal the face of Stephen Colbert beneath*
*eagle screams and Sutter's mask is ripped off to reveal the face of Stephen Colbert beneath*
ANDORAN AMERICA INTENSIFIES!
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Yes the measurements in pathfinder are in faeries to halflings to ogres.
Id say that barn measures about 2 ogre 2/3 of a halfling give or take a faerie.
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Starfinder will be using the imperial system, so that we don't attract undue attention from the NSA and other government agencies monitoring for anti-American behavior.*
** spoiler omitted **
Well, those are good reasons, but it mades sad equally. Talk with feets and miles aboard starships will feel incredibly weird.
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In fairness, using meters in space is equally weird...
Real Space Measurements:
Temperature: You're dead if it matters.
Distance: Farther than you thought.
Mass: Way bigger than you.
Velocity: Made-up fancifully fast
I don't understand why a system of measurement based entirely around properties associated with the planet Earth would be preferred by space traveling people in a completely different universe?
The Meter is a precise portion of the Earth's circumference.
;)
Actually the meter is defined as the distance light travels in particular fraction of a second. (Which is why the speed of light has an integer value in the metric system.
A multiplanetary civilization would probably use weights and measures based on natural universal phenomena. The international second is already based on one, and the meter is currently defined as the distance traveled by light in 1/299792458th of that duration.
A universal mass unit might be based on some multiple of the Planck mass (~2.176e−8 kg, ~4.797e-8 lb). A cube of 275 by 275 by 275 planck-mass cubes makes approximately one pound.
The foot might be equal to 1/20796875th (1 over 275-cubed) of the circumference of the event horizon of the intermediate-mass collapsar at the Pathfinder galaxy's core. (Galaxies can have IM collapsar cores.)
275^4 ft is also approximately 5.815 light-seconds (almost 1 light-round).
One round is about 1/20796875th (1 over 275-cubed) of a quadrennium (4 years). If you can think of something natural that lasts about four years or happens every four years...maybe some famous nova that explodes on a predictable schedule, like in the Star Trek TNG episode "Evolution".
The number 275 could have some invented cultural or religious significance, who knows. :)
^Problem is that the definition based upon the distance from the Equator to the North Pole is necessarily not very precise, and not even constant (even the solid parts of the Earth bend by a significant fraction of a meter with the tides (on a daily basis).
Actually the meter is defined as the distance light travels in particular fraction of a second. (Which is why the speed of light has an integer value in the metric system.I don't understand why a system of measurement based entirely around properties associated with the planet Earth would be preferred by space traveling people in a completely different universe?
The Meter is a precise portion of the Earth's circumference.
;)
Dude, seriously? I mean come on, the Meter was defined before "light traveling in a vacuum" was even a concept
"The metre was originally defined in 1793 as one ten-millionth of the distance from the equator to the North Pole."
Yes, and the people who made that definition got it wrong, which is why the meter is not, in fact, "a precise portion of the Earth's circumference" except in the sense that any well-defined length is also a precise portion of the Earth's circumference. (For example, fifteen inches is -- more or less -- 15 inches divided by 40,008 km of the Earth's circumference. I say "more or less" because the Earth's [polar] circumference is close to 40,008 km, but not exactly.)
It's fair to say that the meter was once (but is no longer) an approximation of a well-defined fraction of the Earth's circumference. But now it's a specific distance that light travels over a specific time.
Defined as, Orf, defined as.
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it's just that poor dumb fools like me have been getting it wrong since 1793, hahahaha
Nope, You've only been getting it wrong since 1799, when the meter was first redefined to be the length of a specific artifact (and then later redefined to be, respectively, two different physical artifacts, the length of a specific number of wavelengths of a specific atom, and finally the distance travelled by light in a specific fraction of a second.
Which doesn't make it any less wrong, by the way. In the same way that if you suggest that the capitol of Japan is Nara, the fact that you would have been correct long before you were actually born doesn't make you anything other than ludicrously wrong as I type this.
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They only changed the definition of the meter as it became easier for scientists to replicate the meter with precision using other methods (so they could calibrate their local instruments to use as a standard).
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You know, all kidding aside, it is really quite sad that the interstellar wars between the Gerenoc consortium and the Farnonocom Planets erupted strictly speaking because one group insisted the meter was 1/299792458th of the distance light travels in a vacuum in one second while the other insisted it is actually 1/299792465ths of the same distance
That is sad. I just think that the number of Farnonocom Planet colonists who died from starvation during in-system transit time because the Gerenoc Consortium was unwilling to retune their hyperspace jump resonators is more sad.
Yes, since you ask, I was born on a Farnonocom Planet; Our meters are calculated from the truest fractional standard. #epictragictheme
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Starfinder will be using the imperial system, so that we don't attract undue attention from the NSA and other government agencies monitoring for anti-American behavior.*
** spoiler omitted **
that's... unfortunate. but worse things happen in life. I'll survive
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** eagle screams **
Monster mash is fairly expensive to transport yannow. Gotta pay the bills!
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Starfinder will be using the imperial system, so that we don't attract undue attention from the NSA and other government agencies monitoring for anti-American behavior.*
** spoiler omitted **
Ya know, you guys could instead do what Cypher System games do and have it be in this formet "x ft(y meters)"
...Seriously, does extra "(text here)" require too much? :'D Its really helpful for us Europeans
I wouldn't mind, although it gets a bit messy since a meter is just enough longer than 3 feet to mess things up (and other similar messiness).
Starfinder will be using the imperial system, so that we don't attract undue attention from the NSA and other government agencies monitoring for anti-American behavior.*
** spoiler omitted **
Ya know, you guys could instead do what Cypher System games do and have it be in this formet "x ft(y meters)"
...Seriously, does extra "(text here)" require too much? :'D Its really helpful for us Europeans
INB4 "Ye sacred worde count".
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INB4 "Ye sacred worde count".Starfinder will be using the imperial system, so that we don't attract undue attention from the NSA and other government agencies monitoring for anti-American behavior.*
** spoiler omitted **
Ya know, you guys could instead do what Cypher System games do and have it be in this formet "x ft(y meters)"
...Seriously, does extra "(text here)" require too much? :'D Its really helpful for us Europeans
Not sure why they couldn't reserve, what 50-500 words(I've never calculated how many times amount of feets is said in the texts) just for metrics. I mean, Cypher system can apparently do it, so why wouldn't Pathfinder able to?
I mean, I literally can't comprehend feets at all :P I have no clue how much 20 feet is, I assume its a lot since 10 feet cube creatures are apparently giants, but I really can't imagine it in my mind.
^Maybe it would help to think of it in rail gauges? Meter gauge is a common narrow railway gauge in Europe (especially Switzerland). This corresponds to 3 feet + 3 + 3/8 inches. Standard gauge in Europe (west of the former Iron Curtain and east of Iberia) (as well as in North America) = 4 feet + 8 + 1/2 inches = 1435 mm. Conveniently, Russian gauge is nominally 5 feet, as wide as a Pathfinder square, = 1524 mm (in practice, actual space tightened to 1520 mm in the 1970s - 1990s).
10 feet = 3048 mm; 20 feet = 6095 mm (doubling inexact due to rounding).
^Wait . . . where are you that metric is the common system of measurements, but you haven't had a tram or metro ride in recent memory?
^I thought they had a decent amount of rail usage. On the other hand, when you do get to see the tracks, they are 5 foot = 1524 mm gauge (they didn't narrow the gap the way the Soviets/Russians did). See if you can find a freight line to look at close up, at least (and if you can, take a picture with someone and/or something in the field of view to provide a sense of scale).
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^I thought they had a decent amount of rail usage. On the other hand, when you do get to see the tracks, they are 5 foot = 1524 mm gauge (they didn't narrow the gap the way the Soviets/Russians did). See if you can find a freight line to look at close up, at least (and if you can, take a picture with someone and/or something in the field of view to provide a sense of scale).
We do have trains and I do pass train station often when I visit center, I just don't go next to tracks to see them close.
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Every page has border art. Useful equations could be drawn into them including conversions between units. It saves inline wordspace and you only have to do it once per page (or every few pages if you rotate between border art graphics).
Forget about Metric vs Imperial. Are we going to get battle yo-yos?