New to PF Homeplay: Crowd Control Sorcerer starting at level 5 - How to negotiate trade-offs?

[Erkus]

Hey guys,

I'm new to pathfinder so I don't really now how important certain mechanics and aspects of the game are. I'm trying to make a sorcerer that focuses on crowd control and does some blasting with dazing spell.

I'm having difficulties understanding how to create the build I want AND make sure that I'm effective enough in terms of: (i) save throws (DC); and (ii) spell penetration. I want to make sure that the spells I perform actually hit. So I'm afraid that the variability and action economy I am looking for will compromises my actually ability to effectively apply the spells I intend to.

Some basics:
Human sorcerer. Starting at level5 (most likely stopping campaign at lvl15ish). Arcane Bloodline with familiar (+4 initiative). Charisma 18 (with +2 headband at 20).

Okay, here are the feats I am intending to take (I'll explain my reasoning for my choices after):

Noble Scion (Scion of War) 1 (+5 Initiative)
Dazing Spell (+3) 1
Craft: Wondrous Item 3
Additional Traits (Burning Gaze)
(Magical Lineage & Reactionary) 5 (+2 Initiative)
Quicken Spell (+4) 7
Improved Initiative 7 (+4 Initiative) (Bloodline Feat)
Craft: Rod 9
Persistent Spell (+2) 11
Piercing Spell (+1) 13
Spell Focus: Evocation 13 (Bloodline Feat)
Spell Perfection (ball lightning or fireball) 15
Intensified Spell (+1) 17
Empower Spell (+2) 19
Skill Focus (Knowledge: Arcana) 19 (Bloodline Feat)

Note: I intend to purchase a lesser Maximise Spell rod for my fireball.

Here are my thoughts about my build:

I read a guide to sorcerers and I saw the suggestion to apply "Burning Gaze" + "Dazing Spell" (metamagic) to the familiar so that the familiar can be active in a fight and add crowd control ("CC") without costing me extra actions. I think this is a great idea, because it would increase my action economy.

I have sort of built around this idea too. I have taken the "Additional Traits" feat with "Magical Lineage" on Burning Gaze ("BG") to reduce the spell slot when applied with dazing spell. This will allow me to apply burning gaze with dazing (metamagic) on my familiar from level 8 onwards.

Next, I have taken "Quicken Spell" and "Dazing Spell" early on with the idea that I will craft them into lesser rods as soon as I hit level 9. I wish I could get persistent spell earlier (out of fear of having too low of a DC to succeed with the spells). This way, I can increase my action economy by level 9 with swift actions (Note: I have taken +initiative feats to guarantee early turn in fights). My thought was to start encounters with two spells, like this:
(1) swift action - quicken [rod] + haste
(2) full action - dazing [rod] + burning gaze + persistent spell

My general worry with my build is that as much as I love the idea of burning gaze, it will fail me at higher levels, because it has too low of a DC since it is a 2nd level spell. Thus I've been thinking of maybe getting spell specialisation for it to increase its caster level ("CL"). I could also switch this later to fireball.

My worry about DC is quite big. I understand that the fireball is also low level and thus easier to resist with saving throws. I have a general fear that saving throws will thwart my spell. So I was wondering whether I should give up on burning gaze idea on familiar and focus on feats, such as: spell focus and greater spell focus; elemental focus; greater elemental focus; spell specialisation; and, finally, the elemental feat that allows you to change your damage type to overcome spell resistance.

I also have a general worry about spell resistance. This is the reason why I also swapped out "Maximise spell" for "Piercing spell" in mid-late game. I also intend to get the robes of the archmagi and karma beads to overcome spell resistance. I was also thinking it would be better to have more feats with low +spell level and get the other feats I want, such as maximise, through a wand, because this will allow me to stack feats more easily and I might need piercing spell more frequently in late game.

I have made sure to take spells that have either no save or no spell resistance, but I am still worried that getting spell perfection and metamagic feats renders me ineffective without all the other DC raising feats and a good spell penetration (in some way). I'm really torn.

Here is some more basis info on my sorcerer:

My skills at level 5:
Appraise 6
Bluff 12
Craft:
Craft:
Fly 6
Intimidate 8
KN: Arcana 10
KN: Planes 4
KN: Nobility 8
Prof:
Spellcraft 10-15 (15 with amulet +5)
Use Magic Device 12

My spells going forward. My legend: "X" are spells I have now; "Max:" is the highest amount of spell I can have including +spells for human trait.

Cantrip Spells Get at Level Max: 9
1 Detect Magic X
2 Read Magic X
3 Message X
4 Light X
5 Mage Hand X
6 Ghost Sound X
7 Prestigitation 3 Human Trait +1
8 Spark 6
9 Mending 8
10 Acid Splash (or Breeze?) 10

Level 1 Spells Get at Level Max: 5
1 Enlarge Person X
2 Magic Missile (no save/but do have res) X
3 Grease X
4 Vanish X
5 Identify 3 Bloodline Spell +1
6 Silent Image 4 Human Trait +1
7 Charm Person 5 Human Trait +1
8 Sure Casting 7

Wand: Mount
Wand: Protection from Evil

Level 2 Spells Get at Level Max: 5
1 Glitterdust X
2 Burning Gaze X
3 Invisibility 5 Bloodline Spell +1
4 Investigative Mind (2x Spellcraft Check) 6 Human Trait +1
5 Flaming Sphere (or Scorching Ray) 7
6 Stone Call (no save or resistance AoE) 7 Human Trait +1
7 Acid Arrow (no save or res, only touch attack) 9
8 Protection from Evil (Communal) 11
(Consider: Snowball [fortitude partial, no res]?)

Level 3 Spells Get at Level Max: 4
1 Haste 6
2 Stinking Cloud 7
3 Dispel Magic 7 Bloodline Spell +1
4 Fireball (reflex save at half damage) 8 Human Trait +1
5 Fly 9
6 Slow 9 Human Trait +1
7 Phantom Steed 11
(Consider: Ice Spear?)

Level 4 Spells Get at Level Max: 4
1 Black Tentacles 8
2 Wall of Ice 9
3 Dimension Door 9 Bloodline Spell +1
4 Confusion 10 Human Trait +1
5 Monster IV 11
6 Ball Lightning 11 Human Trait +1
7 Phantom Steed (Communal) 13
(Consider: Dimensional Anchor, Firefall [AoE; reflex save at half damage]?)

Level 6 Spells
? Antimagic Field (for Robes of the Archmagi)

ITEMS (GM has allowed one crafted item of my choice at start):

Now:
(1) Mithral Twilight Armour +5 AC (5,100)
(2) Handy Haversack (2,000 full price)
(3) Headband of Alluring Charisma +2 (2,000 crafted)

Next:
(4) CRAFT: Armillary Amulet +5 Spellcheck (1,250/CL5 crafted)
(5) CRAFT: Quick Runner’s Shirt (+move action 1/day) (500 crafted/CL5)
(6) BUY: Ring of Sustenance (hrs sleep) (2,500)

ASAP:
(7) CRAFT: Lesser quickened rod (17,500 crafted)
(8) CRAFT: Lesser dazing rod (14,000 crafted)

Later:
BUY: Gloves of Elvenkind +5 Spellcheck (7,500 full)
CRAFT: Bead of Karma (+4 CL for 10min.) (10,000) [Beads, Prayer (Strand)]
CRAFT: Robes of the Archmagi (+2 CL against spell resistance) (35,000)
CRAFT: Bag of Holding (1000-5000)
BUY: Ring of Freedom of Movement (40,000)

I would appreciate any advice you guys have. I have been reading around, but I still have no clear sense how significant saving throws and spell resistance affect spell casting.

Cheers,
Erkus

[The Sideromancer]

read "CC" as "Close Combat," not "Crowd Control" and wondered why you had no Concentration boosts.

[Drahliana Moonrunner]

I take it you mean Pathfinder home play, not PFS which is organised play... because in the latter, you start at 1, like everyone else.

[Erkus]

The Sideromancer wrote:

read "CC" as "Close Combat," not "Crowd Control" and wondered why you had no Concentration boosts.

Thanks! I've changed it to avoid confusion.

[Erkus]

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:

I take it you mean Pathfinder home play, not PFS which is organised play... because in the latter, you start at 1, like everyone else.

Thanks too! I'm obviously new. Haha. I've also changed this to avoid confusion.

[avr]

You probably want the best headband adding to charisma you can afford, not a +2 at level 20; +2 is fine at level 5 if that's what you meant though. This helps with save DCs among other things.

Higher save DCs are good but if you're not the only person in the party you don't have to beat the monster every time; the other players need something to do! Also some of those spells have useful effects regardless of saves, e.g. the damage of stone call is insignificant but it creates difficult terrain.

Snowball is a level 1 spell BTW.

[Makarion]

I think you're overlooking one very major aspect of spellcasters at higher levels - you have no bonus at all to Spell Penetration. Spell resistance is rife at high CRs, and beating it is far more important than your DC beyond level 10 or so.

You also lacka good perception skill, so you're far too likely to be surprised and possible dead before you get to take any actions in the first place. Initiative is only useful if you know there's a fight coming!

[crit confirmed]

I would more than consider Snowball as a 1st level spell (5d6 damage, up to 35ft range). It is a great substitute against many foes that are resistant or immune to fire, and the damage is not reduced. The save merely eliminates the staggered condition. Since you have Vanish (lasting 5 full rounds), think about foregoing Invisibility for Mirror Image. You will find that creatures can crit and still miss your character. I have found both spells very useful for my Halfling sorcerer.

[Erkus]

avr wrote:

You probably want the best headband adding to charisma you can afford, not a +2 at level 20; +2 is fine at level 5 if that's what you meant though. This helps with save DCs among other things.

Higher save DCs are good but if you're not the only person in the party you don't have to beat the monster every time; the other players need something to do! Also some of those spells have useful effects regardless of saves, e.g. the damage of stone call is insignificant but it creates difficult terrain.

Snowball is a level 1 spell BTW.

Yes, I mean to continually upgrade my headband as I level up and gain more wealth!

[Erkus]

crit confirmed wrote:

I would more than consider Snowball as a 1st level spell (5d6 damage, up to 35ft range). It is a great substitute against many foes that are resistant or immune to fire, and the damage is not reduced. The save merely eliminates the staggered condition. Since you have Vanish (lasting 5 full rounds), think about foregoing Invisibility for Mirror Image. You will find that creatures can crit and still miss your character. I have found both spells very useful for my Halfling sorcerer.

Yeah. This is exactly what I am worried about. I am hoping to get some advice on this. Is the metamagic feat of "piercing spell" not sufficient with robe of the archmagi (+2 CL against spell resistance)?

Would I need spell penetration and greater spell penetration also? What about "Elemental Spell"? I could possibly switch fire damage with cold damage, or something alike. If I understand it correctly, then spell resistance is damage type specific, right?

I wish I could forego invisibility, but it is a bloodline spell, so it is not my choice, unfortunately! :(

Sounds like I should really take snowball!!!

[Erkus]

Makarion wrote:

I think you're overlooking one very major aspect of spellcasters at higher levels - you have no bonus at all to Spell Penetration. Spell resistance is rife at high CRs, and beating it is far more important than your DC beyond level 10 or so.

You also lacka good perception skill, so you're far too likely to be surprised and possible dead before you get to take any actions in the first place. Initiative is only useful if you know there's a fight coming!

(1) See above on spell penetration.

(2) Yes, I have definitely overlooked perception. Hmm... Is this not a class skill, or something a like? How high should I make this skill (as high as possible?)?

[QuidEst]

I recommend avoiding Dazing Spell. It trivializes combats, and is generally un-fun for both the other players and the GM.

[Makarion]

Erkus wrote:

Makarion wrote:

I think you're overlooking one very major aspect of spellcasters at higher levels - you have no bonus at all to Spell Penetration. Spell resistance is rife at high CRs, and beating it is far more important than your DC beyond level 10 or so.

You also lacka good perception skill, so you're far too likely to be surprised and possible dead before you get to take any actions in the first place. Initiative is only useful if you know there's a fight coming!

(1) See above on spell penetration.

(2) Yes, I have definitely overlooked perception. Hmm... Is this not a class skill, or something a like?

It's not a class skill for a lot of classes who should nonetheless take it to the best extent they can. Granted, being a non-Intelligence, non-Wisdom based class with 2 base skill points per level makes it harder, but it's no less important for it. Consider an ioun stone to help out for startersa,d perhaps a trait to make it a class skill and/or gain a bonus to it.

[Erkus]

Makarion wrote:

Erkus wrote:

Makarion wrote:

I think you're overlooking one very major aspect of spellcasters at higher levels - you have no bonus at all to Spell Penetration. Spell resistance is rife at high CRs, and beating it is far more important than your DC beyond level 10 or so.

You also lacka good perception skill, so you're far too likely to be surprised and possible dead before you get to take any actions in the first place. Initiative is only useful if you know there's a fight coming!

(1) See above on spell penetration.

(2) Yes, I have definitely overlooked perception. Hmm... Is this not a class skill, or something a like?

It's not a class skill for a lot of classes who should nonetheless take it to the best extent they can. Granted, being a non-Intelligence, non-Wisdom based class with 2 base skill points per level makes it harder, but it's no less important for it. Consider an ioun stone to help out for startersa,d perhaps a trait to make it a class skill and/or gain a bonus to it.

Okay. I have swapped out the "Reactionary" trait for "Conspiracy Hunter", which gives me +1 to Perception, plus it makes it a class skill!