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This is not a build question, or a place to state your houserules. I would like to know how this works with the base Pathfinder rules.
Can you Masterwork an Improvised Weapon? Does a Mithral or Adamantine Improvised Weapon receive a +1 enhancement bonus to hit? Furthermore, can you enchant an Improvised Weapon (Without using special abilities like Sohei and the likes)?
I have seen and read through the entirety of many old dead posts that never came to a clear and definitive answer. Some important details:
Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat—commonly bottles, chair legs, stray femurs, and that sort of thing. Because such objects are not designed for this use, any creature that uses an improvised weapon in combat is considered to be nonproficient with it and takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with that object. To determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match. An improvised weapon scores a critical threat on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. An improvised thrown weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.
A masterwork weapon is a finely crafted version of a normal weapon. Wielding it provides a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls.
Without using magic, you can't add the masterwork quality to a weapon after it is created; it must be crafted as a masterwork weapon (see the Craft skill). The masterwork transformation spell transforms a non-masterwork weapon into a masterwork weapon.
The masterwork quality adds 300 gp to the cost of a normal weapon (or 6 gp to the cost of a single unit of ammunition). Adding the masterwork quality to a double weapon costs twice the normal increase (+600 gp).
Masterwork ammunition is damaged (and effectively destroyed) when used. The enhancement bonus of masterwork ammunition does not stack with any enhancement bonus of the projectile weapon firing it.
All magic weapons are automatically considered to be of masterwork quality. The enhancement bonus granted by the masterwork quality doesn't stack with the enhancement bonus provided by the weapon's magic.
Even though some types of armor and shields can be used as weapons, you can't create a masterwork version of such an item that confers an enhancement bonus on attack rolls. Instead, masterwork armor and shields have lessened armor check penalties.
A magic weapon is enhanced to strike more truly and deliver more damage. Magic weapons have enhancement bonuses ranging from +1 to +5. They apply these bonuses to both attack and damage rolls when used in combat. All magic weapons are also masterwork weapons, but their masterwork bonuses on attack rolls do not stack with their enhancement bonuses on attack rolls.
Adamantine is so costly that weapons and armor made from it are always of masterwork quality; the masterwork cost is included in the prices given below.
Weapons and armors fashioned from mithral are always masterwork items as well; the masterwork cost is included in the prices given below.
If you wish to discuss, I politely ask that you keep it to the rules.
Masterwork it to do what?
A Masterwork waffle iron could give a bonus to waffles. But not to hit someone.
Masterwork means finding perfect balance, perfect materials and perfect forging.
No. You can't make an improvised weapon into a better improvised weapon. It would be a weapon then. The moment you start to tailor it to be a weapon it's not improvised.
All very reasonable, but can you direct me to where in the rules it states this?
Of course. You quoted it yourself but I'll bold.
A masterwork weapon is a finely crafted version of a normal weapon.
As you can see that's very specific. Your answer is quite clear by the rules.
Can you point me to where a "Normal Weapon" is defined in the rules? Because if I use a rock as a weapon, wouldn't that be normal for me?
it must be crafted as a masterwork weapon
Helps too. See how it must be crafted as a weapon, specific to being a weapon? Therefore can't be improvised.
I made a Masterwork Hammer once. Or maybe an Adamantine Hammer, since those are always masterwork. I could use Masterwork Transformation as well. So no, crafting it isn't always the requirement.
Edit: Also, it's called a Improvised Weapon.
Improvised weapons are described in the rules as objects that are not weapons, so they aren't weapons. Thus you cannot make a masterwork weapon out of an improvised weapon as it is not a weapon (just as you cannot make masterwork armour using the masterwork weapon rules rather than the masterwork armour rules).
Because if I use a rock as a weapon, wouldn't that be normal for me?
No, because that goes under the rules of improvised weapons.
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Can you Masterwork an Improvised Weapon? Does a Mithral or Adamantine Improvised Weapon receive a +1 enhancement bonus to hit? Furthermore, can you enchant an Improvised Weapon (Without using special abilities like Sohei and the likes)?
Masterwork Thieves Tools exist
They can be used as improvised weaponsTherefore improvised weapons can indeed be masterwork
Masterwork shields exist (regardless of whether they are also made of some material that is always masterwork)
They can be used as weapons OR improvised weapons
They do not gain a +1 enhancement bonus to hit
Therefore masterwork improvised weapons do not gain a +1 enhancement bonus to hit
Masterwork backpacks exist
They can be used as improvised weapons
They can be enchanted to become a handy haversack
Therefore masterwork improvised weapons can indeed be enchanted
Q.E.D.
Improvised weapons are described in the rules as objects that are not weapons, so they aren't weapons. Thus you cannot make a masterwork weapon out of an improvised weapon as it is not a weapon (just as you cannot make masterwork armour using the masterwork weapon rules rather than the masterwork armour rules).
Because if I use a rock as a weapon, wouldn't that be normal for me?No, because that goes under the rules of improvised weapons.
My point with that message is this: where is "Normal Weapon" defined in Pathfinder. The definition of Normal is "conforming to the standard or the common type; usual; not abnormal; regular; natural." So if it is standard to wield a rock for you, then that is normal.
Can you Masterwork an Improvised Weapon? Does a Mithral or Adamantine Improvised Weapon receive a +1 enhancement bonus to hit? Furthermore, can you enchant an Improvised Weapon (Without using special abilities like Sohei and the likes)?Masterwork Thieves Tools exist
They can be used as improvised weapons
Therefore improvised weapons can indeed be masterworkMasterwork shields exist (regardless of whether they are also made of some material that is always masterwork)
They can be used as weapons OR improvised weapons
They do not gain a +1 enhancement bonus to hit
Therefore masterwork improvised weapons do not gain a +1 enhancement bonus to hitMasterwork backpacks exist
They can be used as improvised weapons
They can be enchanted to become a handy haversack
Therefore masterwork improvised weapons can indeed be enchantedQ.E.D.
I will edit the question to be more fitting of the questions asking.
Edit: Actually I cannot. Since the time has passed. However, it is indicating Masterworking as a weapon, and enchanting as a weapon.
I'm throwing a FAQ ping behind this, because my previous attempts to make a FAQ of this topic didn't end as well as I would have hoped.
Even though some types of armor and shields can be used as weapons, you can’t create a masterwork version of such an item that confers an enhancement bonus on attack rolls. However, you can create masterwork armor spikes and shield spikes, which do confer their enhancement bonus on attack rolls to attacks made with the spikes.
Right off the bat, this tells us one big thing: Shields and offensive armor can't be made into weapons on their own right. If we extrapolate this to improvised weapons, or rather the tools one is using as improvised weapons, then any masterwork quality they have applies only to how you use them. A masterwork frying pan only provides its bonus to Profession (chef) checks, even if you have the Rough and Ready trait and are capable of using it as a weapon. Similarly, you cannot take Weapon Focus (frying pan), because you never truly gain proficiency in it. And, of course, you can't enchant it to get a +1 flaming burst frying pan.
I know these things to be true, as the rules stand now. My actual hopes are to actually change them, to get a FAQ that allows people more flexibility in using unorthodox weapons, so people can put their ranks in Profession (gravedigger) to use to smash opponents' heads in with a shovel, or any number of fun, entertaining prospects. After all, if you are so practiced with using a given improvised weapon that you don't take penalties with it, it starts feeling rather arbitrary to say you're still not proficient with it.
My point with that message is this: where is "Normal Weapon" defined in Pathfinder. The definition of Normal is "conforming to the standard or the common type; usual; not abnormal; regular; natural." So if it is standard to wield a rock for you, then that is normal.
It would be something that is listed to be a weapon. Daggers have weapon rules, greatswords have weapon rules, pistols have weapon rules, chairs do not have weapon stats, and thus fall under the rules of improvised weapons.
It's.... really obvious that Normal Weapon = A Weapon.
The rules for what is a weapon is not subjective, a chair does not stop being an improvised weapon just because you keep attacking people with one.
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However, it is indicating Masterworking as a weapon, and enchanting as a weapon.
So far as I can tell, there is no such thing as 'masterwoking as a weapon'.
Rather, you can make an item masterwork. If that item happens to be a weapon then it gains a +1 bonus to hit. Otherwise, it gets some other sort of masterwork bonus. As seen with the shields, there is no way to 'masterwork it as a weapon' in the sense of giving it a +1 bonus to hit... the item becomes a masterwork of whatever it is and there is no way to 'alternate masterwork' or 'double masterwork' it to make it a 'masterwork weapon'.
On the other hand, masterwork shields CAN be 'enchanted as a weapon', but there is some uncertainty on how that works and this would extend to whether it can be done with masterwork items that are neither 'weapons' nor 'armor'. In short, no clear rules on this issue.
That said... there are any number of existing examples; various rods that can be used as weapons, mattock & maul of the titans, et cetera. Thus, it IS possible... but the rules for it are unclear.
It would be something that is listed to be a weapon. Daggers have weapon rules, greatswords have weapon rules, pistols have weapon rules, chairs do not have weapon stats, and thus fall under the rules of improvised weapons.
It's.... really obvious that Normal Weapon = A Weapon.
The rules for what is a weapon is not subjective, a chair does not stop being an improvised weapon just because you keep attacking people with one.
But where does it state that? I'm not arguing for or against this. I just want the rules to be definitive on the matter on either side.And there are stats for a chair leg and a chair. You use a weapon similar to it on the chart for damage, and all the other stats are listed in improvised weapons.
And if I use a chair to beat someone to death in real life, I get charged with Battery with a Deadly Weapon.
However, it is indicating Masterworking as a weapon, and enchanting as a weapon.So far as I can tell, there is no such thing as 'masterwoking as a weapon'.
Rather, you can make an item masterwork. If that item happens to be a weapon then it gains a +1 bonus to hit. Otherwise, it gets some other sort of masterwork bonus. As seen with the shields, there is no way to 'masterwork it as a weapon' in the sense of giving it a +1 bonus to hit... the item becomes a masterwork of whatever it is and there is no way to 'alternate masterwork' or 'double masterwork' it to make it a 'masterwork weapon'.
On the other hand, masterwork shields CAN be 'enchanted as a weapon', but there is some uncertainty on how that works and this would extend to whether it can be done with masterwork items that are neither 'weapons' nor 'armor'. In short, no clear rules on this issue.
I agree in most part with this. However, my problem is the fact that there are no clear rules on this. And that is what I am aiming to remedy.
[Snip][...] Daggers have weapon rules, greatswords have weapon rules, pistols have weapon rules, chairs do not have weapon stats, and thus fall under the rules of improvised weapons [...]
Something I would like to point out is that Combat Scabbards are called out as being Improvised weapons, and yet are listed in the weapon lists and have weapon rules as you mentioned. They have stats and the like.
You said chairs don't have weapon stats, and thus fall under the rules of improvised weapons. What about the scabbard, which is specifically called out to be improvised, yet has weapon stats listed in the book?
[Snip][...] Daggers have weapon rules, greatswords have weapon rules, pistols have weapon rules, chairs do not have weapon stats, and thus fall under the rules of improvised weapons [...]Something I would like to point out is that Combat Scabbards are called out as being Improvised weapons, and yet are listed in the weapon lists and have weapon rules as you mentioned. They have stats and the like.
You said chairs don't have weapon stats, and thus fall under the rules of improvised weapons. What about the scabbard, which is specifically called out to be improvised, yet has weapon stats listed in the book?
Specific trumps general - It has weapon stats, but the specific label of improvised means it does not qualify under the weapon list as a true weapon.
The stats listed are for the equivalent improvised weapons rule (and follow all of the recommendations), the combat scabbard is called out because it is a reinforced item, otherwise soft pliable leather would not be an effective striking weapon. One cannot gain proficiency in a combat scabbard, you can negate the penalty. It is not a weapon and thus enchanting and master-working would be useless beyond giving a light effect (possibility of enchanting), and HP bonus against sundering/spells/direct damage.
The combat scabbard, sharpened (splatbook item), IS a weapon and is distinct from the improvised regular combat scabbard, they call out that the combat scabbard is NOT a weapon as the sharpened version is.
Specific trumps general - It has weapon stats, but the specific label of improvised means it does not qualify under the weapon list as a true weapon.
The stats listed are for the equivalent improvised weapons rule (and follow all of the recommendations), the combat scabbard is called out because it is a reinforced item, otherwise soft pliable leather would not be an effective striking weapon. One cannot gain proficiency in a combat scabbard, you can negate the penalty. It is not a weapon and thus enchanting and master-working would be useless beyond giving a light effect (possibility of enchanting), and HP bonus against sundering/spells/direct damage.
The combat scabbard, sharpened (splatbook item), IS a weapon and is distinct from the improvised regular combat scabbard, they call out that the combat scabbard is NOT a weapon as the sharpened version is.
Yes, I agree with this. Though still something I find odd that was listed as a specific example (And Only?).
However, the question comes, and one person stated this item as an example, is an improvised weapon viable to be masterworked as a weapon and thusly enchanted for the same purposes. Now, I know a lot of people state "No" and I am not explicitly looking for either answer more. What I am looking for is definitive wording on Improvised Weapons stating that they can or cannot be masterworked and/or enchanted.
Though I do encourage people bringing up as much details as possible! And sharing their ideas in a respectful manner, so that people can see each other's reasoning. Here's to hoping the Devs take a look when they can!
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But where does it state that?
Why would it state it? It would be 100% redundant to state "Weapons are the things we say are weapons" because that's so ridiculously obvious that things the game has listed as weapons are weapons.... It makes a lot more sense for "the things that are listed as weapons are weapons, and if one of the weapons listed as a weapon isn't a weapon then state so in the weapons description as it is an exception" which is what currently occurs.
And there are stats for a chair leg and a chair. You use a weapon similar to it on the chart for damage, and all the other stats are listed in improvised weapons.
There aren't listed weapon stats for a chair leg and a chair, there are rules for chair leg and a chair but that's not the same thing (especially when said ruling says that they aren't weapons).
And if I use a chair to beat someone to death in real life, I get charged with Battery with a Deadly Weapon.
Just because it's deadly doesn't mean it's not still "not designed to be a weapon". The laws definition of a weapon is just something like "anything you use to directly physically harm another". Law of a RL society != definition in an RPG.
Why are people so insistent to prevent people from using fun weapons.
We're not, this just is a rule thread so we're talking rules. I do things like let my players enchant their golden pocket watch to be a +2 flaming pocket watch and using it as a weapon, but just because it's cool and fun doesn't mean it's allowed in the rules of the game without rule-zero.
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One thing to remember is that Paizo doesn't offer definitions of every word in every book. They only offer definitions if it has an important impact on the game. For example Barbarian has a specific meaning in Pathfinder. Wizard and Sorcerer are largely synonymous in real life, but in Pathfinder they follow two very different sets of rules. Paizo doesn't give a definition for the word "and" or "think" or "Normal". If there's no Paizo-specific definition, the default is to use a dictionary definition.
The other thing about Paizo products is that they have a "when the rules don't cover it, look for something similar" policy. When looking at that, it's not so hard to understand.
Here's some examples of Paizo rules on "Improvised Weapons":
Foes are surprised by your skilled use of unorthodox and improvised weapons.
Benefit: You do not suffer any penalties for using an improvised melee weapon. Unarmed opponents are flat-footed against any attacks you make with an improvised melee weapon.
Normal: You take a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with an improvised weapon.
You can turn nearly any object into a deadly weapon, from a razor-sharp chair leg to a sack of flour.
Prerequisites: Catch Off-Guard or Throw Anything, base attack bonus +8.
Benefit: You do not suffer any penalties for using an improvised weapon. Increase the amount of damage dealt by the improvised weapon by one step (for example, 1d4 becomes 1d6) to a maximum of 1d8 (2d6 if the improvised weapon is two-handed). The improvised weapon has a critical threat range of 19–20, with a critical multiplier of ×2.
You are skilled at fighting with objects not traditionally considered weapons.
Benefit: You gain a +2 trait bonus on attack rolls with improvised weapons.
I particularly like the flavour text in Surprise Weapon here: "You are skilled at fighting with OBJECTS NOT TRADITIONALLY CONSIDERED WEAPONS."
If you're playing a game set in the Cutlery Kingdom in the land of Kitchen-donia, then a fork us probably a standard weapon, but anywhere else it's probably not "traditionally considered a weapon".
If you're playing a primitive game where weapon-manufacture hasn't become a big thing, rocks are probably a standard weapon, but under usual standards, they're not made to be weapons (how would you make a masterwork rock? Isn't that what a hammer is?).
Hell you could even take that further, in a modern setting, perhaps a sword would be considered an Improvised weapon? Most people don't fight with them, they're usually ornamental (hell my ornamental sword broke when I swung it at the air, I doubt it would have stood up to a real fight).
The general setting for these games is high-fantasy-medieval. As such, most of the "traditional weapons" are listed on weapon tables. Anything not there is an "Improvised weapon".
Note: Ladders would be improvised weapons, but it was possible for gnomes to figureout how to design one for combat in the form of Battle Ladders.
Theoretically a character could design and craft a "battle" version of whatever improvised weapon you desire (using the make-any-weapon rules from WMH since this is the rules forum), and since it's designed for battle it's not an improvised weapon anymore (might not be a "good" weapon, but it's masterworkable and enchantable).
If you're playing a primitive game where weapon-manufacture hasn't become a big thing, rocks are probably a standard weapon, but under usual standards, they're not made to be weapons (how would you make a masterwork rock? Isn't that what a hammer is?).
There are rules for making stone weapons in Ultimate Equipment (along with making weapons from bone and chitin and gold, cool section).
To that end, can a Magus use his Arcane Pool to add an Enhancement bonus and other properties to an Improvised Weapon?
And can a Paladin use her Divine Bond ability to do the same?At 1st level, a magus can expend 1 point from his arcane pool as a swift action to grant any weapon he is holding a +1 enhancement bonus for 1 minute. For every four levels beyond 1st, the weapon gains another +1 enhancement bonus, to a maximum of +5 at 17th level. These bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon enhancement to a maximum of +5. Multiple uses of this ability do not stack with themselves.
At 5th level, these bonuses can be used to add any of the following weapon properties: dancing, flaming, flaming burst, frost, icy burst, keen, shock, shocking burst, speed, or vorpal.
Adding these properties consumes an amount of bonus equal to the property’s base price modifier. These properties are added to any the weapon already has, but duplicates do not stack. If the weapon is not magical, at least a +1 enhancement bonus must be added before any other properties can be added. These bonuses and properties are decided when the arcane pool point is spent and cannot be changed until the next time the magus uses this ability. These bonuses do not function if the weapon is wielded by anyone other than the magus.
A magus can only enhance one weapon in this way at one time. If he uses this ability again, the first use immediately ends.
The first type of bond allows the paladin to enhance her weapon as a standard action by calling upon the aid of a celestial spirit for 1 minute per paladin level. When called, the spirit causes the weapon to shed light as a torch. At 5th level, this spirit grants the weapon a +1 enhancement bonus. For every three levels beyond 5th, the weapon gains another +1 enhancement bonus, to a maximum of +6 at 20th level. These bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon bonuses to a maximum of +5, or they can be used to add any of the following weapon properties: axiomatic, brilliant energy, defending, disruption, flaming, flaming burst, holy, keen, merciful, and speed. Adding these properties consumes an amount of bonus equal to the property's cost (see Table: Melee Weapon Special Abilities). These bonuses are added to any properties the weapon already has, but duplicate abilities do not stack. If the weapon is not magical, at least a +1 enhancement bonus must be added before any other properties can be added. The bonus and properties granted by the spirit are determined when the spirit is called and cannot be changed until the spirit is called again. The celestial spirit imparts no bonuses if the weapon is held by anyone other than the paladin but resumes giving bonuses if returned to the paladin. These bonuses apply to only one end of a double weapon. A paladin can use this ability once per day at 5th level, and one additional time per day for every four levels beyond 5th, to a total of four times per day at 17th level.
If a weapon bonded with a celestial spirit is destroyed, the paladin loses the use of this ability for 30 days, or until she gains a level, whichever comes first. During this 30-day period, the paladin takes a –1 penalty on attack and weapon damage rolls.
Neither ability lists any limitations on the weapon, or uses the Normal Weapon" caveat.
Step back, take a deep breath, and re-read your own posts. You clearly already know that you are wrong.Can you point me to where a "Normal Weapon" is defined in the rules? Because if I use a rock as a weapon, wouldn't that be normal for me?Of course. You quoted it yourself but I'll bold.
A masterwork weapon is a finely crafted version of a normal weapon.
As you can see that's very specific. Your answer is quite clear by the rules.
Just because I inferred that the answer is likely that the Improvised Weapon doesn't fall into this category of Normal Weapon doesn't mean that everyone else has. If you had read most of the posts, you would find that I am not asking for it to become such that Improvised Weapon is synonymous with Weapon. I am merely asking for an official ruling to solidify RAW. As I have seen many different discussions that have ultimately led back to, as Backpack put, "Are to/Are not". What I am asking for is merely just that Improvised Weapons be solidified as rules and not be so "Wishy Washy".
One thing to remember is that Paizo doesn't offer definitions of every word in every book. They only offer definitions if it has an important impact on the game. For example Barbarian has a specific meaning in Pathfinder. Wizard and Sorcerer are largely synonymous in real life, but in Pathfinder they follow two very different sets of rules. Paizo doesn't give a definition for the word "and" or "think" or "Normal". If there's no Paizo-specific definition, the default is to use a dictionary definition.
The other thing about Paizo products is that they have a "when the rules don't cover it, look for something similar" policy. When looking at that, it's not so hard to understand.
Here's some examples of Paizo rules on "Improvised Weapons":
Foes are surprised by your skilled use of unorthodox and improvised weapons.
Benefit: You do not suffer any penalties for using an improvised melee weapon. Unarmed opponents are flat-footed against any attacks you make with an improvised melee weapon.
Normal: You take a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with an improvised weapon....You can turn nearly any object into a deadly weapon, from a razor-sharp chair leg to a sack of flour.
Prerequisites: Catch Off-Guard or Throw Anything, base attack bonus +8.
Benefit: You do not suffer any penalties for using an improvised weapon. Increase the amount of damage dealt by the improvised weapon by one step (for example, 1d4 becomes 1d6) to a maximum of 1d8 (2d6 if the improvised weapon is two-handed). The improvised weapon has a critical threat range of 19–20, with a critical multiplier of ×2.
To also go with things that are traditionally not considered weapons, we could take a step back into history. When Gunpowder was used for Fireworks and not guns, bombs, etc. Or maybe the first spear that was a sharpened stick. These were not "Traditional Weapons", but I would very much argue that these are indeed weapons.
it must be crafted as a masterwork weapon
Helps too. See how it must be crafted as a weapon, specific to being a weapon? Therefore can't be improvised.
I made a Masterwork Hammer once. Or maybe an Adamantine Hammer, since those are always masterwork. I could use Masterwork Transformation as well. So no, crafting it isn't always the requirement.
Edit: Also, it's called a Improvised Weapon.
Once again you've provided you're own quote in the first post.
Improvised Weapon wrote:
Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat
In the examples you've provided the hammer is a tool. If crafted as a weapon it is a weapon.
Crafting is very much a requirement. One says crafted as a weapon, the other clearly says not crafted to be a weapon.
You then note the spell masterwork transformations, but neglect to see how it shows the answer you're looking for as well.
You convert a non-masterwork item into its masterwork equivalent.So yes crafting is a requirement. It provides original intent of the item, or further intents from that point on, like adding spikes to a shield.
All the information you want is there. If you change an item from its original purpose into another, such as balancing a tool into a weapon then you're changing it into a weapon. It costs 300 by the spell and is a weapon. Therefore not improvised.
You're asking for rules and provided all you need in the first post. It's quite clear.
Last time I checked, when I cast Masterwork Transformation, I don't start crafting for the day. I just cast the spell and spend the money and it's done. That is not crafting at all.
However, you do seem to miss the point of the post. And the fact that I am not the only one who has seen this and noticed the lack of clarification on the section for Improvised Weapons. As it is now, there is NOTHING stating that you cannot Masterwork a Hammer as a Weapon, and there is NOTHING saying that an Adamantine Hammer isn't a Masterwork Weapon.
My goal is to get things clarified so that there is no ambiguity. To make it so it isn't having to come to an assumption yourself, that many people have come to different conclusions. I AM NOT arguing that Improvised Weapons are Normal Weapons; however, the word normal just means standard. And the standard for one person might just be Improvised Weapons. So, I am attempting to get it to rest peacefully in the ground.
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To that end, can a Magus use his Arcane Pool to add an Enhancement bonus and other properties to an Improvised Weapon?And can a Paladin use her Divine Bond ability to do the same?At 1st level, a magus can expend 1 point from his arcane pool as a swift action to grant any weapon he is holding a +1 enhancement bonus for 1 minute. For every four levels beyond 1st, the weapon gains another +1 enhancement bonus, to a maximum of +5 at 17th level. These bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon enhancement to a maximum of +5. Multiple uses of this ability do not stack with themselves.
At 5th level, these bonuses can be used to add any of the following weapon properties: dancing, flaming, flaming burst, frost, icy burst, keen, shock, shocking burst, speed, or vorpal.
Adding these properties consumes an amount of bonus equal to the property’s base price modifier. These properties are added to any the weapon already has, but duplicates do not stack. If the weapon is not magical, at least a +1 enhancement bonus must be added before any other properties can be added. These bonuses and properties are decided when the arcane pool point is spent and cannot be changed until the next time the magus uses this ability. These bonuses do not function if the weapon is wielded by anyone other than the magus.
A magus can only enhance one weapon in this way at one time. If he uses this ability again, the first use immediately ends.
The first type of bond allows the paladin to enhance her weapon as a standard action by calling upon the aid of a celestial spirit for 1 minute per paladin level. When called, the spirit causes the weapon to shed light as a torch. At 5th level, this spirit grants the weapon a +1 enhancement bonus. For every three levels beyond 5th, the weapon gains another +1 enhancement bonus, to a maximum of +6 at 20th level. These bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon bonuses to a maximum of +5,...
Another good question! Should people want to FAQ it, I'll type it in FAQ format:
Does a Magus' Arcane Pool work on Enchanting Improvised Weapons? Does the Paladin's Divine Bond work on enchanting Improvised Weapons?
To also go with things that are traditionally not considered weapons, we could take a step back into history. When Gunpowder was used for Fireworks and not guns, bombs, etc. Or maybe the first spear that was a sharpened stick. These were not "Traditional Weapons", but I would very much argue that these are indeed weapons.
Yup, and the first time those things were used they would probably have been considered improvised weapons. The people making them would be new at this, and the people firing/throwing/stabbing/whatever with them wouldn't be used to using them in that fashion. In that case, they would take a -4 penalty to hit. After some trial and error, they would perfect their crafting techniques to the point where the weapons were balanced & more finely tuned to kill things. At this point anyone proficient would be able to use them without a -4 penalty. Sounds reasonable to me. Again, in the standard medieval high-fantasy world that most people play in, the weapons commonly manufactured & practised are on a list.
No I totally agree that this needs to be FAQ'd but the current argument seems to be firmly rooted in. "The Imp. Weapons Table are not really weapons" There doesn't, to me at least, ever seem to any constructive debate on this topic. Just back and forth of "are too/are not"
If chairs and feather dusters were actually weapons, no improvisation would be needed to use them as such.
Since improvisation is needed, they clearly are not weapons at the core.
Since they are not weapons by nature, they are not valid targets for weapon enchantment... any more than a chair is a valid target for the Charm Person spell.
To also go with things that are traditionally not considered weapons, we could take a step back into history. When Gunpowder was used for Fireworks and not guns, bombs, etc. Or maybe the first spear that was a sharpened stick. These were not "Traditional Weapons", but I would very much argue that these are indeed weapons.Yup, and the first time those things were used they would probably have been considered improvised weapons. The people making them would be new at this, and the people firing/throwing/stabbing/whatever with them wouldn't be used to using them in that fashion. In that case, they would take a -4 penalty to hit. After some trial and error, they would perfect their crafting techniques to the point where the weapons were balanced & more finely tuned to kill things. At this point anyone proficient would be able to use them without a -4 penalty. Sounds reasonable to me. Again, in the standard medieval high-fantasy world that most people play in, the weapons commonly manufactured & practised are on a list.
Oh yes, I completely agree though that -4 would likely be from non-proficiency and not Improvised with later versions. Again, I'm not against Improvised weapons not being allowed to do that. As I've stated a lot, I just want this section clarified in the rules.
If chairs and feather dusters were actually weapons, no improvisation would be needed to use them as such.
Since improvisation is needed, they clearly are not weapons at the core.
Since they are not weapons by nature, they are not valid targets for weapon enchantment... any more than a chair is a valid target for the Charm Person spell.
Well obviously Charm Person wouldn't work on a Chair. As there is no ambiguous wording for things called "Improvised Humanoid", the point is that most of the rules on Improvised Weapons are non-existent. The rule that Masterwork items cannot be masterwork, and other questions raised here, are not answered in the books. The point of this post is to put the final nail in the coffin on this topic, which I have seen multiple topics on.
When talking about masterwork transformation it's important to note the text of the spell "You convert a non-masterwork item into its masterwork equivalent. A normal sword becomes a masterwork sword, a suit of leather armor becomes a masterwork suit of leather armor, a set of thieves' tools becomes masterwork thieves' tools, and so on. If the target object has no masterwork equivalent, the spell has no effect. "
If you used it on an improvised weapon it would not result in a masterwork weapon, as that is not the masterwork equivelent of that item. Also, you cannot even cast it on most improvised weapons since it can only target a "weapon, suit of armor, shield, tool, or skill kit". So you might be able to get a masterwork hammer, but it'd be something like giving a +2 circumstance bonus to associated craft skills at best not give a +1 to attack rolls.
Shields are armor that can be masterwork, and even magic, weapons.
Actually "Even though some types of armor and shields can be used as weapons, you can't create a masterwork version of such an item that confers an enhancement bonus on attack rolls. Instead, masterwork armor and shields have lessened armor check penalties."
When talking about masterwork transformation it's important to note the text of the spell "You convert a non-masterwork item into its masterwork equivalent. A normal sword becomes a masterwork sword, a suit of leather armor becomes a masterwork suit of leather armor, a set of thieves' tools becomes masterwork thieves' tools, and so on. If the target object has no masterwork equivalent, the spell has no effect. "
If you used it on an improvised weapon it would not result in a masterwork weapon, as that is not the masterwork equivelent of that item. Also, you cannot even cast it on most improvised weapons since it can only target a "weapon, suit of armor, shield, tool, or skill kit". So you might be able to get a masterwork hammer, but it'd be something like giving a +2 circumstance bonus to associated craft skills at best not give a +1 to attack rolls.
Of course, transforming something to it's masterworked version is the purpose of the spell. Which for a weapon is a MWK Weapon. Now, I agree that a Hammer would simply become a MWK Tool, but I've seen arguments stating that it is a Weapon, and thus can be used to make a Hammer a Masterwork Improvised Weapon Hammer. And while I may not agree with it myself, I couldn't find any explicit ruling on that it could not. As the only thing that stated a Weapon could be masterworked is that it was a Normal Weapon. Which, looking at the definition of Normal, just means a standard thing. And by all means was it a standard weapon for the person who uses the hammer. I would just like more explicit rules for or against the matter. (A lot of people are assuming my stance is that I am in favor of the Improvised Weapons being Masterworked.)
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I've seen arguments stating that it is a Weapon, and thus can be used to make a Hammer a Masterwork Improvised Weapon Hammer. And while I may not agree with it myself, I couldn't find any explicit ruling on that it could not.
It's not a weapon by definition of being an improvised weapon. There. Done. It does not have text any more explicit than that because it is not required. It is not a weapon, and thus... it's not a weapon. If it was a weapon, then it would not fall under the improvised weapon rules.
If A != B, then A != B. It literally is that simple.
I've seen arguments stating that it is a Weapon, and thus can be used to make a Hammer a Masterwork Improvised Weapon Hammer. And while I may not agree with it myself, I couldn't find any explicit ruling on that it could not.It's not a weapon by definition of being an improvised weapon. There. Done. It does not have text any more explicit than that because it is not required. It is not a weapon, and thus... it's not a weapon.
If A != B, then A != B. It literally is that simple.
Ah, but that is a fallacy you see. For A may not equal B, but B may equal A. An example, A Square is a Rectangle, but not all Rectangles are Squares.
Ah, but that is a fallacy you see. For A may not equal B, but B may equal A. An example, A Square is a Rectangle, but not all Rectangles are Squares.
Not in this case. Improvised Weapons are by definition not Weapons according to the improvised weapon rules, and if something is a Weapon it is not an Improvised Weapon as it uses the Weapon rules. So If A cannot equal B and B cannot equal A, then A cannot equal B and B cannot equal A. They are mutually exclusive, as the rules for improvised weapons require it to not be a weapon to apply.
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Honestly, I don't think it needs it. The rules and the language are pretty clear. There will always be people who try to game the system to get an advantage. There will always be people who honestly just misunderstand or misread the rules. Adding a restrictive label as to what "normal weapons" are and what "improvised weapons" are (beyond what the dictionary tells us) likely won't change that.
It seems to me that the developers making lengthy rulings on minutiae like this would make the game worse, not better. I'd rather they spend their time on new content, or on FAQ's for things that people actually can't agree on than on something like this - where even the devil's advocate in the thread (TrinitysEnd) seems to agree with the general consensus.
If people are really struggling with this rule - and if it's really affecting games - then sure hit that FAQ button, that's what it's for. As far as I can tell though, you have an entire thread of people who agree on what the rules are. Some people just can't remember WHY they agree or HOW they came to that conclusion. That's a different matter entirely.
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If A != B, then A != B.Ah, but that is a fallacy you see. For A may not equal B, but B may equal A. An example, A Square is a Rectangle, but not all Rectangles are Squares.
Actually TrinitysEnd is correct here, (s)he's just got it backwards. (Don't know gender, didn't want to offend)
In this scenario, anything you can use to attack someone is a RECTANGLE.
Anything that can have a "masterwork component" that adds +1 to hit is a SQUARE.
Improvised weapons are rectangles, but not squares.
(Heh, this isn't where I expected this thread to go)
EDIT: I accidentally made everything SQUAREs =P Fixed now.
Another problem is determining the line between "weapon you aren't proficient with" and "tool not designed to be a weapon". Even though the penalty is the same for each of them (-4), some feats and traits work for one and not the other.
If a wizard picks up a table and starts trying to bludgeon people with it, the GM needs to figure out what kind of weapon it is most like. In this case, since it is a bludgeoning device too large to use with one hand, Greatclub seems the closest match. But wizards aren't proficient with greatclubs. So does the wizard take -8, both for improvising and for nonproficiency? If not, does that not mean that there is some level of association between improvised weapons and nonproficiency?
What about that same wizard taking a longspear that he's not proficient in, and trying to bash people's heads in with the haft, as if it were a club? He's using a weapon he's not proficient in in an improvised manner, so how do the penalties line up?
And then we come to Rough and Ready.
Your intense familiarity with the tools of your trade allows you to use them in combat as if they were actual weapons and makes them more effective for that purpose than they would normally be. When you use a tool of your trade (requiring at least 1 rank in the appropriate Craft or Profession skill) as a weapon, you do not take the improvised weapon penalty and instead receive a +1 trait bonus on your attack. This trait is commonly used with shovels, picks, blacksmith hammers, and other sturdy tools—lutes and brooms make terribly fragile weapons.
This trait even states you can use them as if they were actual weapons in the fluff, though the mechanical benefits used to represent it are just having no improvised penalty. Where is the line drawn, if even this trait doesn't grant you proficiency?
Honestly, I don't think it needs it. The rules and the language are pretty clear. There will always be people who try to game the system to get an advantage. There will always be people who honestly just misunderstand or misread the rules. Adding a restrictive label as to what "normal weapons" are and what "improvised weapons" are (beyond what the dictionary tells us) likely won't change that.
It seems to me that the developers making lengthy rulings on minutiae like this would make the game worse, not better. I'd rather they spend their time on new content, or on FAQ's for things that people actually can't agree on than on something like this - where even the devil's advocate in the thread (TrinitysEnd) seems to agree with the general consensus.
If people are really struggling with this rule - and if it's really affecting games - then sure hit that FAQ button, that's what it's for. As far as I can tell though, you have an entire thread of people who agree on what the rules are. Some people just can't remember WHY they agree or HOW they came to that conclusion. That's a different matter entirely.
I agree that for the most part that this should be common sense. To me masterworking something as a weapon seems to be the point in which is stops being an Improvised Weapon. Because now it's designed to be a weapon. And well... that's not very improvised at all now is it?
Now whether this needs a lengthy FAQ, I would say no, it doesn't. Just a short and simple "No, you cannot Masterwork Improvised Weapons and thusly they cannot be enchanted by means meant for weapons." or whatever their conclusion is. I'm a simple lass, I just need a simple answer.
Actually TrinitysEnd is correct here, (s)he's just got it backwards. (Don't know gender, didn't want to offend)
In this scenario, anything you can use to attack someone is a RECTANGLE.
Anything that can have a "masterwork component" that adds +1 to hit is a SQUARE.
Improvised weapons are rectangles, but not squares.
(Heh, this isn't where I expected this thread to go)
EDIT: I accidentally made everything SQUAREs =P Fixed now.
Well yes, in this case it likely would be Improvised is a rectangle. And She is correct. (Though a few people could be mean and call me a He or It, as I am Transgender, though that has no relevance to this conversation)
Now whether this needs a lengthy FAQ, I would say no, it doesn't. Just a short and simple "No, you cannot Masterwork Improvised Weapons and thusly they cannot be enchanted by means meant for weapons." or whatever their conclusion is. I'm a simple lass, I just need a simple answer.
Yeah that's fine. If people are having trouble with it 1 line to help them seems fair to me.
"She" it is.
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Again I have posted here that this conversation never goes well because people begin to just say I think x=y and another says x=z with their explanation being solely based on how they see it.
Here is my two cents: Imp weapons are typically items typically not used as a weapon. This ranges from rocks to chairs to a shoe.
Now masterwork items are particularly well made or high-quality items of a specific nature. Masterwork thieves tools are very well made versions of ordinary tools. A Masterwork sword is a very high-quality blade. A masterwork chair may be very luxurious with soft cushions and gold leaf. But the intent in creating masterwork items is important. A delicate gold blade with gems may be masterwork in that it is a high-quality decoration, as would be a piece of jewelry. But if a chair is made with the design of being a battle, made of well-made steel and handles to swing it. It was made with the intent to be masterwork in the way a blade would be, it is not particularly excellent as a chair.
To lastly give a view of Masterwork thieves tools, master work tools that give a +2 to disable device would not give the combat benefits of masterwork as that is not the intent of the crafting, but if i made Masterwork (combat) thieves tools i would only get the combat bonus of masterwork as that was the intent of design.