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Okay, but the coup de grace should not be an issue. The GM did not coup de grace a PC. They coup de graced an NPC. Period.
No "period" at all. I have seen several times a player get mad, walk out, talk himself out of being mad then come back.
Here's what *I* would have said "OK, if the Paladin player comes back you guys have found him unconscious but stable. If he doesn't then the paladin died. Lets go on with this."
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That would be a fair response.
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Aw, did you remove Taku's post? I thought that was harmless and cute. I guess it was in response to a deleted post, though.
Lady-J, not only are you entirely wrong (as demonstrated by myself, the OP, and a third poster), aasimar are unusual. They're a monster race, and this player tinkered with the race to make it especially powerful.
I'm wondering how he got flight at first level.
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Drahlianna, it's one of those obscure alternate traits aasimars and tieflings have access to.
Anyways, the CDG is pretty easy to retcon if he ever returns. I think this was a good solution—it saves them from having to carry him around or heal him (they can't just leave him where he is—he'll freeze to death in this adventure).
Drahlianna, it's one of those obscure alternate traits aasimars and tieflings have access to.
You mean that table that's supposed to be random?
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Yeah, the GM gave him an exception. It's cheesy, but the GM did approve it, at least. :P
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You mean that table that's supposed to be random?Drahlianna, it's one of those obscure alternate traits aasimars and tieflings have access to.
The GM recommended it to the player, so the GM was okay with it. link
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the book says the GM is free to allow a player to pick a specific variant ability.
Granted, that particular ability is not exactly well balanced for a first level character.
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the book says the GM is free to allow a player to pick a specific variant ability.
Granted, that particular ability is not exactly well balanced for a first level character.
I don't think flight at first level is a particular problem in this case, considering that it is half the reason the PC got killed (the other half being sheer hubris, apparently).
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So don't do it at all.
I never have. :-)
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So don't do it at all.
I never have. :-)
I have in fact done this on a few occasions. A CdG is actually surprisingly easy to survive for folks with good Fort saves.
Mine always come in encounters where it makes sense (Guardian statues tasked with killing all intruders. Focus on one target until dead is the situation that first comes to mind.)
However, I also warn my players that its likely to be used in an encounter as well. ("hey fellas, these statues are pretty singular in their intent to kill you. They will make sure you are dead before they act in a different way once you've been targeted.)
this works for my groups at least. I haven't killed too many characters off, and only one or two permanently I think. Mostly due to the player happy to retire that character more than anything else.
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My only comment is about the detect good/evil spell. The op commented in a spoiler that the since the sprites are using the spell they would always know which way to look. It takes three rounds of concentration before they would know the power and location of each aura. The first round all they should know is that auras are present. The second, the number of auras. Since the paladin was flying about it seems unlikely that he would have stayed in the cone area of effect for three rounds. Of course they could have made really good perception rolls.
That is not exactly right. The spell is a cone. If something is in the cone you know dont know where it is in the cone on round 1, but you know it is in the cone. On round 3 you can nail down the square it is in.
Now if you have the spell up, and it pings when a creature is in the area it makes sense to say that the creature in question is likely the cause of your "radar" going on. It is not 100%, but its a fair bet to make if you are out in the woods, and nothing else happened that might set it off.
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If CdG was an effective tactic, PCs would use it all the time
I think I saw it only once and used as a mercy killing
In any given situation, if our favorite murderhoboing PCs would not have used a CdG, then NPCs using it is very unlikely
PC's don't do it more because it is not easily setup. Normally monsters go from alive to dead. Also many players on a metagame level know that Team Evil does not have clerics. When I have used healers for Team Evil, the PC's made sure the NPC's stayed down so by your logic, and my players it is useful for the PC's if the enemies might stand back up.
I don't think CdG makes sense from a tactics point of view if the enemy intends to win the fight why waste time when one enemy isn't attacking you anymore. The exception would be if you know that someone will heal him and get him back up fighting you.
Now if i'm using a hit and run or an A-hole character like an AP. CdG a character would make sense AP doing it just to be a Arse and demoralize the party. Hit and run trying to do some lasting damage to the party.
Now I don't think me as a paladin would of ran away I probably would of tried to close and since that would of been impossible because of their fly speed go back to group and warn and support them. Fleeing and letting the party handle it just doesn't seem like the right call to me as a paladin.
I think the CdG would of upset me unless it made sense for them to do so. So if they were far enough away not to have any other immediate concerns and a evil character killing a paladin is like Pure candy so I think I would of been ok with it. I had a dm who did it to a character and got the monster killed because of it that seemed dumb to me. When he could have instead fought for his life he decided no i'm just going to make sure this guy is dead before I die.
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I still don't see the issue of a CE creature doing a CdG. Short of them not being smart enough to drop the enemies or to busy in the midst of a fight, why would they ever not secure a kill. Do your guys assasins attack in the middle of the night with saps and only knock the Pc's out then leave? Sure the rule of fun matters, but if you don't punish the pc's for failures than I don't understand the game your playing. Now I know we all play this game for different reasons, but if death and the enemies aren't a threat then your just playing a visual table top novel.
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Reading the OP and the subsequent discussion, there were a couple of 'jarring' things about situation.
GM allowed the paladin character to have a method of movement that none of the rest of the party had, and that in turn led to questionable choices based on the lack of mobility of the rest of the party.
And when GM had paladin character 'isolated' paladin character was unable to secure cover as NPCs continued to invalidate it.
This may fly in the face of the encounter, but the other aspect to consider is this:
The paladin, realizing that they are being shredded, doesn't want to bring the enemies back to the party (who are less mobile and will get shredded even *worse*).
And for their selfless efforts they get KO'd then CdG'd.
Wasn't at the table, but that wouldn't sit very well with me on that surface. It sounds almost like the paladin was 'set up to fail'.
Just my thinking, based on discussion.
I mean if your plan is to exchange your life so the party doesn't get shredded and then you die doing it and the party wins you did what you set out to do so why get mad?
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I mean if your plan is to exchange your life so the party doesn't get shredded and then you die doing it and the party wins you did what you set out to do so why get mad?
Heat of the moment, probably not thinking too clearly? Happens to a lot of people.
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so then no one is really to blame then? Yeah i'm ok with that verdict. Just people making heat of the moment decisions.
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How would "leading them away" help anything when the party had no easy means of escape in the meantime? That's not a diversion, that's divide and conquer.
I don't get any "noble sacrifice" vibes from this.
I don't either but I was just trying to see it from Wei Ji's POV. If that was the case then hey you accomplished what you set out to do. If you were trying to run away hoping you could outrun flying pixies with ranged attacks that is not smart or heroic.
I personally if i'm the plate wearing warrior type always put my life on the line before anyone else anyways.
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I don't think CdG makes sense from a tactics point of view if the enemy intends to win the fight why waste time when one enemy isn't attacking you anymore. The exception would be if you know that someone will heal him and get him back up fighting you.
Most holy symbols are not hidden away so its not hard to tell if someone may have a healer in the party or not.
In this specific case the enemies were CE, and that makes it more reasonable for them to put being bloodthirsty over tactics.
PS: If there is no sign of a healer then I agree its better to not CDG someone from a tactical perspective.
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Everytime I read such a thread I'm reminded on the interview Erik Mona gave to Wolfgang Baur in Kobold Quarterly 1 and his comments on the swarm in the first Age of Worms-adventure "The Wispering Cairn". Would be hilarious if Erik brought such a scenario to these boards incognito, only to be told by the board members how bad a GM he is for creating such a deadly scenario.
I also remember my first read of this encounter and immediately thinking "Ouch, that is bad stuff". This encounter is intended to be dangerous and potentially lethal, especially for inexperienced players.
So maybe the GM could have been more clear about the style of his game and especially about the need for the players to work together as a team (though that is something which should normally be self-evident when playing Pathfinder). But given how deadly the encounter is just by book and given how many bad decisions the player made for his character, the outcome seems inevitable even with a generous GM.
I also happen to think that a CDG is totally in character for the sprites, those are sadistic, murderous little critters who certainly would make time to slit a helpless victim's throat.
Everytime I read such a thread I'm reminded on the interview Erik Mona gave to Wolfgang Baur in Kobold Quarterly 1 and his comments on the swarm in the first Age of Worms-adventure "The Wispering Cairn". Would be hilarious if Erik brought such a scenario to these boards incognito, only to be told by the board members how bad a GM he is for creating such a deadly scenario.
I also remember my first read of this encounter and immediately thinking "Ouch, that is bad stuff". This encounter is intended to be dangerous and potentially lethal, especially for inexperienced players.
So maybe the GM could have been more clear about the style of his game and especially about the need for the players to work together as a team (though that is something which should normally be self-evident when playing Pathfinder). But given how deadly the encounter is just by book and given how many bad decisions the player made for his character, the outcome seems inevitable even with a generous GM.
I also happen to think that a CDG is totally in character for the sprites, those are sadistic, murderous little critters who certainly would make time to slit a helpless victim's throat.
Yeah you sold me. GJ!
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First off... 3 out of 4 players at your table played together and had a great time. I'd say that's a solid thumbs up.
That out of the way, indulge me a moment to play with numbers.
Before Combat: Paladin flies 20ft ahead of the group (having used a standard action to detect evil).
Round 1: Paladin flies ahead to be 40-60ft ahead of the group, and gets sniped. One PC hides (moving 0-5ft), one uses Perception actively (move 0-5ft) and one double-moves (15ft) to close the gap with the paladin, who is now between 25 and 45ft away.
Round 2: Paladin flies another 20ft ahead of the group (now 45 to 65ft away) and attempts Stealth (with a skill somewhere between -4 and +0 at best). Enemies reposition. Even if the rest of the party give chase to the paladin, they'll be 30ft to 50ft behind him.
Round 3: Paladin shoots one with a crossbow (which is a poor weapon choice for a high mobility character) and reloads, not moving. Enemies shoot him more. Assuming the rest of the party gives chase, they'll still be 15-35ft away, and have performed absolutely no hostile actions to cause them to be considered a threat. Prime target still the paladin.
Round 4: Paladin calls for the group to retreat (I'll get to this in a bit), and then performs a flying run not towards his allies. Assuming he is in medium armor, that's 80ft and denying himself his Dex bonus to AC, and assuming he flies off to the 'side' (i.e. 90° from the direction of his allies) that increases the gap to around 90 to 105ft (because trig) between him and his allies. His enemies have a 60ft fly speed and 60ft range increment on their bows - he cannot escape pursuit.
Now, he has shot and wounded a sprite, the sprites go next, and no other PC has displayed any credible threat to the sprites. Having one chase the paladin and plug him with an arrow is fair, and should be a lesson to the paladin player that he can't escape and should get his pin-cushioned butt back to the party. The alchemist then bombs two sprites, putting another threat on the table.
Round 5: At this point the alchemist has drawn fire by displaying it is the most dangerous thing around, and has the attention of 2 sprites (who might need to flee at this point). If the paladin expended his full round action to run back to the alchemist (who is 90-105ft away) he'd be able to be a mere round or two's movement from the alchemical engine of sprite killing, and pretty much guaranteed to survive, as long as he isn't high above the ground.
Instead he runs away again, increasing the gap between him and the party to between 170 and 185ft - over 10 rounds of movement for the party. This is either gross stupidity, or extreme pride as the paladin doesn't want to "run to his friends to save him" and either way is tantamount to suicide. If the sprite is giving chase it is so far from the other PCs (in a forest no less) it can largely ignore them... and probably can't even see them anymore, given visual ranges in such terrain.
Round 6: Okay, at this point the paladin has 2hp left, and the sprite probably isn't within change range (40ft), so he has few options.
He could just leg it and hope to get there in time. He has enough hp to survive maybe 2 rounds and he is (due to his own fault) a little over 2 full-round "run" flights from his allies.
Using a move action to ready a heavy shield and a standard action to go total defense would give +6 AC, and if he has scalemail (+5) and any Dex at all, would put his AC into the low 20's and give him a decent chance of not being shot... especially given that a sprite using Deadly Aim would have an attack bonus of around +6. Better still, using a move action to fly to cover (and towards the party) and then take the Total Defense action would give a nifty +8 to AC. Sure, there's a chance of being hit, but a tactical retreat using Total Defense and cover would also buy the rest of the party time to catch up.
If he felt like being creative, he could try to use Intimidate to demoralize (or even scare off, if the GM was feeling generous) the sprite. Given the bonuses for being vastly larger than the sprite, he has a pretty great chance of succeeding.
Trying to plug it with a crossbow is a decent option (though a shortbow would let him move and take cover after), and if you roll at least a 5 on damage you could even kill it. But it is a huge gamble and if it doesn't work you're not any closer to safety. This is the option he went with, and the gamble didn't pay off - such is the nature of high risk gambling.
Round 7: Okay... so by this point he has pretty much doomed himself, so the all or nothing gamble of shooting the sprite is one of his few options left. It failed. he dropped to 0hp. .
Anyway. So he falls out of the sky into the snow next to a sprite who has at least a minute of the party trying to reach them before it need respond, assuming they immediately start double-moving to catch up.
The paladin is unconscious and now at the mercy of the situation he has placed himself in.
The sprite has a bunch options:
- Leave the paladin and attack the other PCs... but given the other two got set on fire (and one might even be dead), this is suicidal. Call this "Plan E".
- Leave the paladin and flee the battle. But right now it's completely safe, and will be for several rounds yet, and without the impending threat of burnination, it has no reason to do this yet. The paladin might stabilize and live, or might bleed out before his friends arrive - he is a long way away. Call this "Plan B".
- Perform a coup de grace (with deadly aim, 2d2-4 = 1 point of damage and DC11 Fort save), which the paladin will likely survive (unless he dumped Con or is unlucky) to prevent it being a total defeat and flee with his comrades. This gives the paladin a chance at survival, gives the sprite a great chance at survival, and makes it feel better about itself. Call this "Plan A".
- Stand over the paladin and plug him with arrows each round until the rest of the party get close enough to engage in melee (or risk killing the paladin with the bombs). This is actually more likely to kill the paladin than the above, but adds in additional risk to the sprite and abject humiliation and frustration into the mix. Call this "Plan C".
- Hold the paladin hostage and demand the rest of the PCs surrender or it will coup de grace him (given they'll take many rounds to reach it). This is as humiliating as Plan C, and even more frustrating as now the entire party is punished for the paladin's stupidity. Call this "Plan D".
Your sprite went with Plan A. CDG and bug out (they don't have the Heal needed to easily tell the CDG was unsuccessful). The paladin had a decent chance at living (beat a DC11 Fort save then stabilize before bleeding out). And really... considering the great smoldering heap of errors on the paladin's part, that's actually fairly generous.
TL;DR: The paladin had every opportunity to save himself, and chose not to. That's called "GM assisted suicide".
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Yeah you sold me. GJ!
Heh, and you confuse me (normally I would read that as being sarcastic ^^).
Personally, I'm more on the storytelling side of RPGs so I often tone down encounters a bit. On the other hand, if there is no real risk of death involved, I think it diminishes the accomplishment of the characters. So, while CDG is not in my standard repertoire of GMing, I don't think that it is never an option. This case, it might be. YMMV, of course.
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was not sarcasm sorry for confusion.
I only know this encounter as a player and may have missed stuff, but I disagree that it is a CR2 encounter. The favorable terrain for the sprites easily adds +1. Our party was saved by the fact that the other two retreated after we managed to hit one of them with a fire attack, but I don't know if our GM ran that as written. All I know is that our knowledge checks told us that the sprites had a damage reduction (so our regular ranged weapons were largely ineffective even when we beat their stealth checks) and getting into melee range was just as impossible as retreating.
Given the difficulty of the encounter I agree that the CDG wasn't really needed and may feel cheap to the player. At first level you are supposed to test your limits to a degree. It is obvious that he did some glaring mistakes, but he was punished for those. Not saying it was bad, but it could be seen as antagonistic.
Most notably because performing the CDG involves same mistake the paladin made: seperating yourself from the party. As the GM you knew there wasn't any real risk involved, but the sprite wouldn't.
In fact it has an -2 modifier on its untrained knowledge arcana check. From its perspective it just saw its opponents utilizing magic, including fire magic. For all it knows they could easily have access to teleportation and similar stuff, so putting itself "out there" was risky. Especially as it might be unable to quickly locate its own allies after finishing off the paladin.
I notice all this doesn't matter because the player quit before that and that might have factored into your decision to finish him off (easiest way to get him out of the picture if he doesn't want to participate either way), but if he hadn't I feel that using a CDG would have been unneccesary.
But in the end the player probably simply didn't like the gritty style and gauging from the encounters we faced after the sprites he might be better off that way (we had a total party wipe only negated by hero points).
Hope your other players enjoy it, I can't say I don't. But it probably isn't for everyone.
If they had access to teleportation magic do you think 3 of them would be walking in the snow?
If you're to assume anyone is a caster it would be the flying guy, casters who can fly would be flying over this snow.
Bombs are CLEARLY non-magical as they don't give off the spellcraft glow.
Group had many rounds to show off magic to help paladin before the CDG spot. The sprite would be stupid to consider that the three left behind are secretly high level casters that have just waited till the paladin fell before showing off their amazing spells.
There was no reason for the sprite to think that they party that wasn't a threat for many rounds would suddenly be more threatening.
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I don't like coup de graces... unless the party has access to reliable healing, and the NPCs know it, it feels rather spiteful. Why is the creature wasting a full turn on a harmless object (body)?
Sure, sometimes it can be justified... the NPC in question can be evil or whatnot. But for most creatures, a coup de grace is not necessarily the go-to strategy, and even if it is, it's still the result of the GM who picked it to begin with. Leaving a foe to bleed out can be just as evil as wasting your time to harm its body.
But then again, my players are rarely faced with the threat of death, but frequently terrified with the thought of getting captured. :P
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because budget?
Many of my characters, at start, would like to begin with silver and cold iron weaponry, but simply don't have the money for it.
it's truc, CI isn't that expensive, but the fey are generally not as common as lycanthropes and silver sensitive foes.
Characters that spend too much of their starting gold on equipment have been, in my years of playing experience:
--railroaded into doing cruddy jobs for no reward.
--faced with fines that forced them to sell the gear they have.
--had their gear stolen because it was 'too good' for their level.
--stuck outside in horrific weather conditions because they couldn't afford to stay at an inn.
--targeted specifically by opponents because 'their gear is worth more'
Not saying that this would be the case in any given scenario, but I'm firmly of the belief that 10g is the *minimum* buffer a person should keep in 'liquid' funds, possibly even more 'just to be safe'.
EDIT: This also depends on gear availability, too. If fey are being an issue, there may have been a run on 'cold iron' items...
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I seriously doubt that spending 2gp instead of 1gp on arrows is going to break the bank. It's cold iron, not adamantine. Availability? If something is that cheap, that means it's easy to make.
Come on, are you seriously trying to put roadblocks preventing characters from buying cold iron ammo? Sheesh.
Those were financial considerations.
Story considerations:
Party doesn't know they are dealing with fey/new adventurers/didn't make the K: Nature roll to know that they need the items.
Party bought cold weather gear, snowshoes, etc because *several feet of snow*.
Party is from the South and doesn't know what snow is.
Personally? If a party wanted to be that paranoid and bought it up? Sure. Buy them, can't hurt.
But we don't necessarily know the situation.
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Actually, snowshoes are not really available at the start of the adventure. Let's just say there's a reason the AP is called "Reign of Winter".
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Actually, snowshoes are not really available at the start of the adventure. Let's just say there's a reason the AP is called "Reign of Winter".
I'm thankful that folks are talking around things because someday I'd like to play it.
Knowing how *lethal* it apparently can be puts me on notice!
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I know a player that has now converted me. All arrows are cold iron. It's worth the 1gp per batch to never have to worry about it.