Hello all, I am a GM for a party of four, and I have some questions, that I haven't quite been able to work out myself, and that I hope you could help me with
1. For handy haversacks and bags of holding the entire contents disappears if the extra dimensional container is ruptured. Now my party tends to jump into fights with all their gear on. Pathfinder doesn't have a built in to-hit locations system, so in what situations (and how) would you make the bag rupture, without it seeming like I'm being unfair and just want to remove their stuff on purpose?
2. Speaking of taking their stuff. Early they found a large amount of treasure, that they have been keeping on their bodies. I did tell them back then, that carrying such amount of coinage makes a lot of noise, and thieves would probably take the chance and try to steal it. The ranger and druid both have a perception of +12, which makes pickpockets unlikely. How would I be able to make them feel that thievery is a risk, without having them come back to the inn one day with the note "Someone broke into your room and took all your stuff, too bad", as that doesn't feel all that fair.
3. The bard found a book of fables, which I gave her to act kinda like a bardic spellbook. She is able to decipher spells she can learn and some homebrewed masterpieces from the stories in it. I told her that one of the stories was written in dwarven, which she would like the dwarf in the party to translate. Though I am in need of a good moral for a dwarven fable/myth/fairy tale. What would a good dwarven fable moral be?
4. This is the big one: So my party is travelling in a devil-worshipping evil kingdom under a wizard tyrant, going towards the former elven territory. They have come to the city with the bridge to the elven territory, and my original plan was to have them come into the square, see a large public gathering where a town crier would inform of some standing bounties and side-quest plot hooks, chief among them being a large bounty on the murderer of a priest of Asmodeus, which the party had heard about before coming to the city. After that, they were meant to go and meet the resistance force, who they are to be allied with from this point forward, and then I would give them a week of downtime to settle in and explore the city.
Well, the traveling took a bit longer than anticipated, and once they got to the city gates, we had to end the session, so I ended up speeding it all along, skipping the town crier, and saying only "Your guide leads you to the tavern where the resistance is hiding. This is a good place to stop, next session a week will have passed, please write to me what you want to do in your downtime. I will write what happened in our group so you know what you have to react to"
So now I has to basically introduce a bunch of resistance fighters and a give bunch of information in a text blurb, in which they have limited means to ask questions or to make connections to these characters before a week has passed. I would like the resistance fighters to feel like characters that they can depend on and feel like are allies who they can call on in the oncoming adventures, but I am not quite sure how to do that in text. I could use some advice in how to introduce elements in what was supposed to be an in-universe info-dump, but now ended up having to be presented in text.
Thanks in advance
Just some quick thoughts:
1) An enemy sees them pulling healing potions/weapons/whatever out of their bag, has enough spellcraft to identify it, and deliberately attempts to sunder it. Note, however, that the general assumption in Pathfinder is that gear is all but sacrosanct, so even this might cause an outcry. Most people don't want to deal with losing their gear.
2) Your characters likely kill things those thieves would never get near for a living. What kind of thief would be willing to take the risk of stealing from them?
Answer: A recurring foe. It should be someone memorable, who's likely to be able to steal from them and get away... but to boast about it, so they can give chase. Losing your stuff with no chance to get it back is irritating and rarely fun. Losing your stuff but then going on an epic chase across the housetops to catch the charismatic thief who stole your stuff and finally getting it back can be fun with the right group.
For both of these, it depends on the group. Some groups will hate you no matter how they lose their gear, even if they get it back. Others will enjoy the challenge. Make sure your group is the second before doing it. (Seriously, just ask if they'd be interested in that kind of side adventure)
3) Can't think of one off the top of my head, but probably something about patience or hard work.
4) I would actually play out some scenes from the week that passed. If at all possible, get an idea from your players where they'd like to explore and who they'd like to talk to (give a few tidbits about some of the resistance fighters, just enough to differentiate them). Flesh out the things they find interesting, and just have enough of an outline for the other things that you can make something up on the spot if it becomes necessary.
A final caveat: all of these suggestions are influenced by my GMing style. My GMing style is not for everyone.
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Jufo wrote:
1. For handy haversacks and bags of holding the entire contents disappears if the extra dimensional container is ruptured. Now my party tends to jump into fights with all their gear on. Pathfinder doesn't have a built in to-hit locations system, so in what situations (and how) would you make the bag rupture, without it seeming like I'm being unfair and just want to remove their stuff on purpose? A specific Sunder attempt from someone who (somehow) knows it's more than just a normal bag.
Also, don't. Gear is a good 30% of any PCs power. Removing a huge chunk of it for no reason is a dick move.
Jufo wrote: 2. Speaking of taking their stuff. Early they found a large amount of treasure, that they have been keeping on their bodies. I did tell them back then, that carrying such amount of coinage makes a lot of noise, and thieves would probably take the chance and try to steal it. The ranger and druid both have a perception of +12, which makes pickpockets unlikely. How would I be able to make them feel that thievery is a risk, without having them come back to the inn one day with the note "Someone broke into your room and took all your stuff, too bad", as that doesn't feel all that fair. Why do you need thievery to be a risk? PCs fight bandits all the time. Bandits try to waylay people and rob them. Ergo, they already know robbery is a risk.
You already explained why pickpocketing them is likely to be fruitless (and no PC looks like an easy mark to any common thief, so they wouldn't bother in the first place) and why cajoling them into leaving their stuff some place and then stealing it is a dick move.
So, don't.
Jufo wrote: 3. The bard found a book of fables, which I gave her to act kinda like a bardic spellbook. She is able to decipher spells she can learn and some homebrewed masterpieces from the stories in it. I told her that one of the stories was written in dwarven, which she would like the dwarf in the party to translate. Though I am in need of a good moral for a dwarven fable/myth/fairy tale. What would a good dwarven fable moral be? I'd look to old German fables and fairy tales, like the original (not watered down nice versions) of the Grimm fairy tales.
Jufo wrote: So now I has to basically introduce a bunch of resistance fighters and a give bunch of information in a text blurb, in which they have limited means to ask questions or to make connections to these characters before a week has passed. I would like the resistance fighters to feel like characters that they can depend on and feel like are allies who they can call on in the oncoming adventures, but I am not quite sure how to do that in text. I could use some advice in how to introduce elements in what was supposed to be an in-universe info-dump, but now ended up having to be presented in text. Why does it have to be in text? This honestly seems like a really good use of a session. Have them explain the mechanical stuff they're doing in their downtime, and in-session have the resistance guys interact with them. Maybe the rebel caster helps the PC caster craft something, or shares his spellbook while they talk shop. The fighter types spar together and trade tips for how to fight certain enemies the other ones may not have encountered before. The brooding loners pick opposite corners to stand in, but give a nod of recognition and a grunt to the other.
Doesn't have to kill the whole session, but that kind of stuff is better played out IC. You can't infodump emotional attachment.
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1. The Haversack wouldn't rupture in normal combat unless it was specifically targeted or an AoE effect managed to get through its hardness and HP.
4. I would have ended the session on arriving at the gates (it's a decent natural ending point) and picked up from there next session, informing them at the end of the session that they would be getting about a week of downtime during the next session so they should think a bit about what they want to do with it.
Bloodrealm wrote: 1. The Haversack wouldn't rupture in normal combat unless it was specifically targeted or an AoE effect managed to get through its hardness and HP.
4. I would have ended the session on arriving at the gates (it's a decent natural ending point) and picked up from there next session, informing them at the end of the session that they would be getting about a week of downtime during the next session so they should think a bit about what they want to do with it.
Even an AoE doesn't do it unless it specifically targets gear or they roll a 1 on their save. Damaging Objects wrote: Attended (Held/Wielded etc.) Items: Unless the descriptive text for a spell (or attack) specifies otherwise, all items carried or worn by a creature are assumed to survive a magical attack. If a creature rolls a natural 1 on its saving throw against the effect, however, an exposed item is harmed (if the attack can harm objects). Refer to Table: Items Affected by Magical Attacks to determine order in which items are affected. Determine which four objects carried or worn by the creature are most likely to be affected and roll randomly among them. The randomly determined item must make a saving throw against the attack form and take whatever damage the attack dealt. If the selected item is not carried or worn and is not magical, it does not get a saving throw. It simply is dealt the appropriate damage. And a backpack isn't one of the standard targets, it would fall under "Anything else".
Sundakan wrote:
A specific Sunder attempt from someone who (somehow) knows it's more than just a normal bag.
Also, don't. Gear is a good 30% of any PCs power. Removing a huge chunk of it for no reason is a dick move.
I partially agree, but I want to voice the disagreement aspect.
If destroying 30% of an enemy's power is as simple as succeeding on a CMB check versus the opponent's CMD (which is very often lower than AC anyway), why wouldn't you?
Now, granted, there are two important caveats and they're responsible for the degree to which I agree with Sundakan.
1) The NPC can't just be tapping the GM's omniscience and has to have a good in-character reason to know what to try to sunder.
2) It shouldn't just be a spite tactic to do before one dies. If it's early in the fight and the NPC thinks it might help ensure that the NPC wins the fight, so long as #1 is met it's a fair game tactic to destroy part of your opponent's power to engage in combat against you. Doing it as a NPC's dying attack at single digit HPs is normally just spiteful GM-ery. Unless of course the NPC isn't really facing imminent death (is a graveknight, has magical contingencies, etc)...
Think about ways to do it in the storyline. Do you want to try a new challenge for the PCs, for which they may not be quite as prepared? Then ask yourself where you think the contents should go when they disappear--and then do it. Now the PCs quest is to recover their lost items, and in the meantime, you lower the CR a bit to make up for the missing power in gear. Think of it like the part in the video game where you get arrested and lose all your stuff--recovery is part of it.
If you decide to tell that story, then BBG sends a specialist to eliminate the PCs magical equipment, thinking it will all be gone, and that they'll now have an easy victory over the PCs. The party caster investigates ways to recover the equipment, and finds a ritual that brings them into a specific level of space, with the destroyed bag to target which extra-dimensional area. Now they can try to recover their equipment, but the aberrations who inhabit [Space of Choice] may threaten that plan.
deusvult wrote: Sundakan wrote:
A specific Sunder attempt from someone who (somehow) knows it's more than just a normal bag.
Also, don't. Gear is a good 30% of any PCs power. Removing a huge chunk of it for no reason is a dick move.
I partially agree, but I want to voice the disagreement aspect.
If destroying 30% of an enemy's power is as simple as succeeding on a CMB check versus the opponent's CMD (which is very often lower than AC anyway), why wouldn't you?
Now, granted, there are two important caveats and they're responsible for the degree to which I agree with Sundakan.
1) The NPC can't just be tapping the GM's omniscience and has to have a good in-character reason to know what to try to sunder.
2) It shouldn't just be a spite tactic to do before one dies. If it's early in the fight and the NPC thinks it might help ensure that the NPC wins the fight, so long as #1 is met it's a fair game tactic to destroy part of your opponent's power to engage in combat against you. Doing it as a NPC's dying attack at single digit HPs is normally just spiteful GM-ery. Unless of course the NPC isn't really facing imminent death (is a graveknight, has magical contingencies, etc)... From a simulationist perspective, yes.
From a fair play perspective it is far too high a reward for too little benefit. If a PC sunders an opponent's armor...whatever, they were going to die anyway. If a PC gets their equipment sundered, they have to live with that debuff for...forever.
It's like those "Double critical = instant death" rules. They far more disproportionately affect the PCs than the NPCs.
Thanks all very much for the answers, they have been very helpful and good :)
Quote: Don't destroy equipment, as it would be bad I agree, and it wasn't so much that I want to destroy their equipment, I just wanted to raise verisimilitude of the world and make them consider it to be a possibility. I was considering letting their new resistance allies give them a bag of holding with some equipment in it, and the "new guy" chose to throw in a dagger, which would then pierce the bag of holding and the supplies they were supposed to get in the process, thus not really stealing anything from them. Or something like that
Sundakan wrote: Also, don't. Gear is a good 30% of any PCs power. Removing a huge chunk of it for no reason is a dick move. I agree, and do not worry, I had not planned of robbing my players of their rightfully acquired spoils
Sundakan wrote: Why do you need thievery to be a risk? PCs fight bandits all the time. Bandits try to waylay people and rob them. Ergo, they already know robbery is a risk. Verisimilitude. Also, this particular party has been in a few powerful dungeons along the way, but have yet to actually encounter any bandits. I might throw some desperate bandits at them in the forest beyond the city, just to see how they react. But you are right in your point: Don't steal from the party just because!
Bloodrealm wrote: I would have ended the session on arriving at the gates (it's a decent natural ending point) That's what I noticed in hindsight too, but I was caught in the moment, where even the best laid plans becomes patchwork solutions.
Almonihah wrote: I would actually play out some scenes from the week that passed Sundakan wrote: Why does it have to be in text? This honestly seems like a really good use of a session. Actually, I might just have to go back on my decision there, because I think you are right! I had scheduled a one-on-one session with one of the players, because the bard currently carries contraband the others don't know about, but other than that, it can be played flashback/scene style
Almonihah wrote: A final caveat: all of these suggestions are influenced by my GMing style. My GMing style is not for everyone. Well I suppose you all are, and that is great. It takes quite specific circumstances before I would say someone is Gm'ing "wrong", and those are few. Any style is good to learn from, as any style brings something new with them.
Thanks all for the helpful answers :)
Jufo wrote:
Bloodrealm wrote: I would have ended the session on arriving at the gates (it's a decent natural ending point) That's what I noticed in hindsight too, but I was caught in the moment, where even the best laid plans becomes patchwork solutions.
Almonihah wrote: I would actually play out some scenes from the week that passed Sundakan wrote: Why does it have to be in text? This honestly seems like a really good use of a session. Actually, I might just have to go back on my decision there, because I think you are right! I had scheduled a one-on-one session with one of the players, because the bard currently...
Exactly. You're the GM and it's not like you're actually fully retconning anything, just playing it out more because you didn't have the time previously.
you can actually stab a handy haversack and have it still be ok but if you stab a bag of holding everything goes poof which is another reason handy haversacks are way better
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I'd say it's in-line with verisimilitude for the criminal element of the land to recognise targets that are out of their capabilities to rob.
"Hey, I've heard of those guys, they could probably kill us with a single swing of their sword. Let's rob those peasants again, it's not much gold, but at least we'll live."
There's always AoE spells that require a reflex save.
The fireball/lighning bolt sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in the area. It can melt metals with low melting points, such as lead, gold, copper, silver, and bronze..
Failed save while strapped with all your gear can go really badly, there are a number of spells that can set people or anything considered flammable on fire.
Those with potion belts, or bandoliers with alchemist fire etc are quite susceptible to shatter.
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That only applies if you roll a 1, and it only affects a single piece of gear, randomly rolled on a table, and generally only affecting weapons, shields, armor, headgear, and cloaks unless you lack one of the above.
don't worry too much over mistakes so long as the consequences were not that bad. So if no PCs died or got hurt (and had to spend over $50*APL gp) then it is okay. Move on...
1) There are times when smart Big Bad Evil Guys will find out what they can about the party. They'd rather steal the parties items than destroy them. However... there are some fighter types that specialize in sundering. When a bag is broken the magic is broken and things spill out into the nearest dimensions. You could have some stuff stay in the broken backpack. I imagine things randomly get roughed up so you could roll a 11+CstrLvl CMB sunder check for (1d6+(CstrLvl/2)) on some items. Otherwise you can quote "lost forever".
2) bad things happen. Just make sure it's rational and fits into your world background (check settlement alignment and general law enforcement). From a plot perspective catching a thief or being burgled can act as a plot hook. The thieves may know some things <grin>.
So, a thief is going to make a perception check and sense motive check to find easy(soft) targets. Roll that and see how they do and pick a target based on that. Usually pickpockets operate solo or in pairs. Sometimes they are kids (Oliver Twist). Burglaring their horse or hotel room is easier and carries less risk.
If the checks are good, the thieves may realize the PCs are out of their league and may need to gang up or come up with options(bribe the inn keeper).
Sometimes it's just random, othertimes a plot hook. DO NOT FEEL BAD ABOUT DOING IT. You are just running the world as realistically as you can.
3) dwarves are typically germanic - so pick any of the original Grimm's Fairy Tales. lol... they can be quite gruesome or horrible, mainly it's "if you leave home bad things will happen".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Smith_and_the_Devil
4) ... dynamics of the resistance under an evil mage despot. #1) resistance needs magical cover from scrying. There must be some hard to scry areas (churches, magic schools, etc). #2) wary of spies/turncoats. #3) it's easier if they also run a black market of things that are suppressed/overly taxed or play the robin hood card. #4) have a key insider/cohort. #5)...
1. Yes, if the bag is ruptured, the contents are 'lost'. If the party has a way to search multiple scattered planes, one or two important items should be retrievable (or hiring a specialist/plot device to retrieve items they really want back) probably should cost about half the price of getting a whole new item. You can also have one or two items fall on the ground nearby, just having randomly been 'lost' to the current plane (typically just in the case of really important items, like a key or plot item).
Usually unless a PC takes an action that specifically puts the backpack in risk, it should be safe. Rolling a Natural 1 on a Saving throw can potentially damage an item, as has been pointed out, or a specific attack targeting the object. I will just second that most enemies probably won't attack a backpack unless they observe an enemy utilizing it a lot or pulling out gear. In that case, it's entirely fair game for an intelligent opponent to try and damage gear. Now, maybe they don't necessarily know it's magical or that rupturing it will cause everything to vanish, they may just destroy a strap and you could say the back falls to the ground, but that's all situational and relies on what's happening in the current encounter.
2. There's nothing unfair about it. You told them carrying money around attracts attention (they obviously can take steps to make it less noticeable, like if it's all in bags off holding etc.), and honestly, you shouldn't have to tell them. It's no different than you telling them that carrying around an evil artifact could attract unwanted attention and instead of using it, getting rid of it, finishing the task of destroying/removing it, they just keep wandering around with it.
Most ordinary pickpockets and thieves probably aren't going to try and rob someone carrying weapons if they have time to think about it, but if there's an opportunity they might. Crowds in a market, a seemingly drunk/inattentive target, etc. But most pickpockets probably can just grab a handful of coins. Obviously if there are gems or jewelry that is easily palmed that's a more expensive haul. Even at best though, a cutpurse (someone who takes the whole money pouch) is likely only to get a 100 coins at best (obviously adventurers deal in gold and platinum, so their 100 coins might be way more than a typical townsperson's). It's risk versus reward, travelers and adventurers typically have more money on them, and even if a pickpocket is caught, there are still laws, they'll probably just go to jail or get put in stocks for a few gold (which really is almost nothing to an adventurer).
A PC that just carves up an orphan pickpocket (anything more than a cuff to the head and a scolding or turing over to the authorities) is probably going to have more problems than losing the gold pieces. Sure no one will probably say anything to them, but merchants should just not deal with them, there may be no rooms available that night from the innkeeper (whose wife occasionally leaves leftovers out for hungry people), or they may be charged extra (the merchants are generous with donations to the local church that helps heal people and they reason that a small surcharge from the actual injurer is perfectly fair when they donate next).
As for leaving stuff in their room, it's fair game. They have access to reasonable ways to secure their belongings. Buying lockable rooms (which can be picked or entered by those with the keys: the staff or someone able to pickpocket a staff-member)m they have alarm spells, access to magic, the ability to pay extra for security or hire a couple of urchins, locals, watchmen to keep an eye on their room for probably a handful of silver pieces.
Otherwise, they should have converted the coins to gemstone or something easier to carry. It's perfectly logical and fair that travelers and adventurers are known to carry lots of money and valuable trinkets and they aren't likely to be locals or want to stick around town for a long time (possibly substituting items for fakes is also good, since merchants, travelers, etc. might not even know until they've already gone.)
3. A good/typical dwarven fable will probably emphasize patience, hard-work, community, and bravery. It will probably also point out the flaws of rushing, impatience, and short-sightedness. Obviously a particular one should suit whatever situation you're trying to convey, but an example might be:
A story of a group of dwarves traveling through dangerous caverns, digging a long tunnel. Adventurers pass by often (typically humans, they're considered rash enough to serve this purpose). The story always remarks about how the human adventurers are strong, but they always criticize the dwarves for digging a new tunnel that will take years and years when they could just fight their way through the caverns with their spiders and monsters, and drow, and deep gnome ambushes. Eventually the dwarves finish the tunnel, it's way safer and they can charge a toll to ensure the safety of many, many travelers and increase the prosperity of their city/community as well as using the proceeds to fund additional safe toll tunnels. It ends with the mention that the human adventure shows grudging respect but still wants to save his money by taking the dangerous route through the caverns, and that's fine for him but, one day, months later, his body is found by a survey crew and brought to the dwarven encampment, covered in wounds and clutching a pouch containing a lot of the gold he was saving by not using the dwarven tunnel and the dwarves remove their hats and remark about how the gold he saved will be just enough to pay for a fine Dwarven-made stone grave-marker to remember their acquaintance. And the fable or whatever is that saving gold is fine and dandy, just remember that you're probably just getting a nicer tomb, or whatever you want the PCs to ponder and worry about for the next 4 or so encounters they run into where a monster asks for some treasure and they consider just killing it.
4. Either just tell them that they heard the crier coming into town before the week of downtime, or just say that during the downtime they hear reports or see notes, or they receive a visitor that mentions the news, or their new contacts bring it up. It's not too much to worry about unless you get a note about a PCs downtime that seriously derails something, in which case, just say that this is some information they get as they start looking into their task and give them a chance to adjust.
As for making the NPCs seem more dependable, that is going to take time and actual interaction. You can just say "You feel you can really depend on this guy." but it's not really as effective as that NPC actually being dependable when it's really needed. So, just look at each PCs actions and look for fair places to insert the name of the NPC and a little info without seeming to pervasive. Even if one PC is just lurking in a room or crafting an item, you can still slip in an NPC to get the wheels rolling. "Jethrak, you spend your time gathering supplies to craft your masterwork quarterstaff. One of the locals, a dark-haired man named Gorb with a crescent moon tattoo on his left bicep, [takes you to the local lumberjack/shows you an interesting length of wood, brings you a few supplies/brings you some food that his wife cooks so you don't have to leave]. He seems friendly-enough but you sense there's something more about him. You make a note to possibly follow this up when you get the time."
Jufo wrote:
2. Speaking of taking their stuff. Early they found a large amount of treasure, that they have been keeping on their bodies. I did tell them back then, that carrying such amount of coinage makes a lot of noise, and thieves would probably take the chance and try to steal it. The ranger and druid both have a perception of +12, which makes pickpockets unlikely. How would I be able to make them feel that thievery is a risk, without having them come back to the inn one day with the note "Someone broke into your room and took all your stuff, too bad", as that doesn't feel all that fair. Taxes and entry fee.
They arrive in town and are charged a treasure tax (say 15% as it is an evil nation), they they carry weapon...so charge them a weapon fee for each weapon but knife/dagger. Then as an adventuring band they need to get a permit, So 50gp initial, plus 30 à month with a 5% a day late fee. If they refuse, they are denied entry...cities must get their money from somewhere and rich adventurers are perfect for that.
Oh and bribery.
And yes my GM uses those on us.
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Not particularly.
We make money, we spend money. Truth be told we are playing 1st edition so we also have our upkeep and training to pay for.
We have good gear and orconstantly (near)broke...what better incentive to go Adventuring?
But the point was, random pickpockets/brigands/thieves are not the only way for the PC to lose their money. They get in a bar jiggling of coins, the bartender, pleasure girls and gamblers will be on them like flies. The above example for city gate is still valid, various bribery to city official (especially Evil nation) also a valid way to rob them.
Andre Roy wrote: Truth be told we are playing 1st edition Your GM's a dick.
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