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Given it's current version and general acknowledgement as being broken/abusable, what changes would you implement to bring it back into balance?
Oh what a terrible thing, an abusable spell.
The reason it is thought broken I would think is by the RAW you can make any number of them that you can afford, and the price isn't too bad.
Also as it can duplicate a huge no of things, it is very flexible. Add them together...
Some sort of limit on the number one caster can create and have in existence at one time, as with undead you can create or control, would seem to fix the first problem. If this is sufficient to mend the spell I am not totally sure, but it is certainly a step in that direction.
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Given it's current version and general acknowledgement as being broken/abusable, what changes would you implement to bring it back into balance?
1. Eliminate all spell like abilities, spellcasting abilities, and supernatural powers.
2. Require that an actual piece of the original creature be used in it's making.
The main use my wizard makes of his simulacrum, is to answer the front door, and make appointments.
This thread
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qpmc?SnoCone-Wish-Machine#1
has 49 FAQ requests and no answer for over two years. They are aware of it, but apparently not willing to do anything about it.
This thread
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qpmc?SnoCone-Wish-Machine#1has 49 FAQ requests and no answer for over two years. They are aware of it, but apparently not willing to do anything about it.
I don't see the need for a Paizo intervention on every single issue that a GM may make homerules on. You won't see it used in PFS as it's not on the exception list in terms of the bar on ongoing spell effects.
As you may or may not notice, Paizo tends to restrict rules changes to issues that directly impact PFS play. where a simple campaign change won't do the job by itself. Pathfinder Unchained! was created because PFS play had identified several classes that needed a major do over.
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Given it's current version and general acknowledgement as being broken/abusable, what changes would you implement to bring it back into balance?1. Eliminate all spell like abilities, spellcasting abilities, and supernatural powers.
2. Require that an actual piece of the original creature be used in it's making.
The main use my wizard makes of his simulacrum, is to answer the front door, and make appointments.
I would say that this would be a good modification for a lesser simulacrum spell. Definitely not a higher level one.
It would make the spell, one of it's primary uses is subterfuge, completely useless when duplicating magic-using creatures.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Given it's current version and general acknowledgement as being broken/abusable, what changes would you implement to bring it back into balance?1. Eliminate all spell like abilities, spellcasting abilities, and supernatural powers.
2. Require that an actual piece of the original creature be used in it's making.
The main use my wizard makes of his simulacrum, is to answer the front door, and make appointments.
I would say that this would be a good modification for a lesser simulacrum spell. Definitely not a higher level one.
It would make the spell, one of it's primary uses is subterfuge, completely useless when duplicating magic-using creatures.
Find a different use for it then. I'm not going to allow a mere 7th level spell do create a duplicate of Otto the Grumpy Wizard with Otto's knowledge, and even a fraction of Otto's spell casting ability to give you ready-made access into Otto the Grumpy's tower. And a snowball has a better chance in hell than any door being left open in MY campaigns for frozen cone wish granting machines.
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I would add that, in order for the simulacrum to have the spell like or spell casting abilities of the original creature, the caster must supply an additional value of ruby dust equal to the cost to create a command word magical item with the spell like or spell casting ability desired, with the no space limit modifier, and requiring the caster to be able to cast the spells in question. Thus, a Genie to give you 3 wishes a day would cost:
10 HD: 5000 GP
Command Word Wish, 3x/Day, no Slot: 1800 * 9 * 17 * 0.6 * 2 = 330480 GP
Material Component x50: 1250000 GP
Total: 1.58548 Million GP
Which seems like a much closer price to the value of what you're actually getting. Basically, you get something that should be priced at 1.5 millionish GP for 5000 by the base rules; any violation of the wealth by level guidelines that flagrant is going to shred game balance fast. It would still leave it as useful for impersonating people, creating mundane bodyguards and such, but would prevent (or at least correctly cost) most of the really abusive things you can do with it.
This doesn't fix the problem entirely, but it should get close enough to make the spell much, much closer to fair. I would flavor the change by stating that imbuing such powerful magics into the simulacrum takes the large amount of ruby dust to hold the magical energy to power it.
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EDIT: Ooh! I actually really like GM7thGate's suggestion! I got ninja'd by it while writing my own, but I think that's a very solid work-around over-all and should eliminate many concerns or questions. Consider mine, below, only a secondary suggestion to his.
I'd say Drahlianna is on the right track, but instead of eliminating the abilities of a creature, I'd suggest making them - all of them - illusory - 50% real, to be specific - and calling the effects they could replicate by the spell used: so, for example, any spell effect that is 7th level or higher could only imitate a 6th level or lower version, and any effects would be illusory and only 50% as effective (so half damage, half duration, and so on). If there isn't a lower level version of the spell than either eliminate it, or figure how likited wish would interpret the desired outcome.
By capping the effects, making them only half as effective, and entirely illusory, you eliminate many of the percieved abuses, but allow them to impersonate magical people; their weaknesses give more chances to pierce their disguise, even if they do have the basic abilities, though.
If you limited the number controlled and maintained by a single caster, that could also help resolve problems: limiting it in a way similar to undead creation.
Personally, I'm fine with it as-is. Obviously, a lot of people don't like such things in their campaigns - I would not like to play an illusionist in that kind of system, but they like it, so it's cool. I'd say to each their own. :)
I'd say Drahlianna is on the right track, but instead of eliminating the abilities of a creature, I'd suggest making them - all of them - illusory - 50% real, to be specific - and calling the effects they could replicate by the spell used: so, for example, any spell effect that is 7th level or higher could only imitate a 6th level or lower version, and any effects would be illusory and only 50% as effective (so half damage, half duration, and so on). If there isn't a lower level version of the spell than either eliminate it, or figure how likited wish would interpret the desired outcome.
By capping the effects, making them only half as effective, and entirely illusory, you eliminate many of the percieved abuses, but allow them to impersonate magical people; their weaknesses give more chances to pierce their disguise, even if they do have the basic abilities, though.
If you limited the number controlled and maintained by a single caster, that could also help resolve problems: limiting it in a way similar to undead creation.
Personally, I'm fine with it as-is. Obviously, a lot of people don't like such things in their campaigns - I would not like to play an illusionist in that kind of system, but they like it, so it's cool. I'd say to each their own. :)
Refer back to my original example. Do you really think it's okay to have players get inside knowledge on Otto the Grumpy merely by making a simulacrum of him? And does the concept of an illusionist really ride so heavily on this spell?
Refer back to my original example. Do you really think it's okay to have players get inside knowledge on Otto the Grumpy merely by making a simulacrum of him? And does the concept of an illusionist really ride so heavily on this spell?I'd say Drahlianna is on the right track, but instead of eliminating the abilities of a creature, I'd suggest making them - all of them - illusory - 50% real, to be specific - and calling the effects they could replicate by the spell used: so, for example, any spell effect that is 7th level or higher could only imitate a 6th level or lower version, and any effects would be illusory and only 50% as effective (so half damage, half duration, and so on). If there isn't a lower level version of the spell than either eliminate it, or figure how likited wish would interpret the desired outcome.
By capping the effects, making them only half as effective, and entirely illusory, you eliminate many of the percieved abuses, but allow them to impersonate magical people; their weaknesses give more chances to pierce their disguise, even if they do have the basic abilities, though.
If you limited the number controlled and maintained by a single caster, that could also help resolve problems: limiting it in a way similar to undead creation.
Personally, I'm fine with it as-is. Obviously, a lot of people don't like such things in their campaigns - I would not like to play an illusionist in that kind of system, but they like it, so it's cool. I'd say to each their own. :)
Yes, I do think it's fine.
I know you and I don't like the same kind of games - that's fine. Nothing wrong with either style, we just don't like the way the other likes to play. It's like enjoying music genres that other people despise - nothing wrong with that, it's just personal enjoyment. :)
EDIT: oh, and it's not "the spell" but the general style of play that goes hand-in-hand with most expressed sentiments - the majority of the time, simulicra becomes one of the few reasons to choose illusion over any other spell school, as very often limits on what illusion is able to accomplish are generated because, "I don't like it." philosophy - which is fine, but not a philosophy I enjoy playing under. I have no problem if others enjoy it, though - that's them and if they're having fun, more power to them! :D
I would add that, in order for the simulacrum to have the spell like or spell casting abilities of the original creature, the caster must supply an additional value of ruby dust equal to the cost to create a command word magical item with the spell like or spell casting ability desired, with the no space limit modifier, and requiring the caster to be able to cast the spells in question. Thus, a Genie to give you 3 wishes a day would cost:
10 HD: 5000 GP
Command Word Wish, 3x/Day, no Slot: 1800 * 9 * 17 * 0.6 * 2 = 330480 GP
Material Component x50: 1250000 GP
Total: 1.58548 Million GPWhich seems like a much closer price to the value of what you're actually getting. Basically, you get something that should be priced at 1.5 millionish GP for 5000 by the base rules; any violation of the wealth by level guidelines that flagrant is going to shred game balance fast. It would still leave it as useful for impersonating people, creating mundane bodyguards and such, but would prevent (or at least correctly cost) most of the really abusive things you can do with it.
This doesn't fix the problem entirely, but it should get close enough to make the spell much, much closer to fair. I would flavor the change by stating that imbuing such powerful magics into the simulacrum takes the large amount of ruby dust to hold the magical energy to power it.
This is an interesting solution. Given that wizards/alchemists are the ones to create simulacrums for the most part, how would you work with creatures that cast spells/SLAs as a cleric?
Refer back to my original example. Do you really think it's okay to have players get inside knowledge on Otto the Grumpy merely by making a simulacrum of him? And does the concept of an illusionist really ride so heavily on this spell?
I've never seen the Simulacrum spell being interpreted to give character specific knowledge by making a simulacrum of him.
Spellcasting and racial stuff, yeah, knowledge of where his lair is (as an example), no.
This thread
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qpmc?SnoCone-Wish-Machine#1has 49 FAQ requests and no answer for over two years. They are aware of it, but apparently not willing to do anything about it.
I don't see the need for a Paizo intervention on every single issue that a GM may make homerules on. You won't see it used in PFS as it's not on the exception list in terms of the bar on ongoing spell effects.
As you may or may not notice, Paizo tends to restrict rules changes to issues that directly impact PFS play. where a simple campaign change won't do the job by itself. Pathfinder Unchained! was created because PFS play had identified several classes that needed a major do over.
You know there's a huge world of PF players out these besides PFS.
And we buy stuff. Thereby we are customers. And the customers want this FAQ.
This thread
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qpmc?SnoCone-Wish-Machine#1has 49 FAQ requests and no answer for over two years. They are aware of it, but apparently not willing to do anything about it.
I don't see the need for a Paizo intervention on every single issue that a GM may make homerules on. You won't see it used in PFS as it's not on the exception list in terms of the bar on ongoing spell effects.
As you may or may not notice, Paizo tends to restrict rules changes to issues that directly impact PFS play. where a simple campaign change won't do the job by itself. Pathfinder Unchained! was created because PFS play had identified several classes that needed a major do over.
You know there's a huge world of PF players out these besides PFS.
And we buy stuff. Thereby we are customers. And the customers want this FAQ.
And it's largely because of PFS that Paizo exists for that stuff to be available.
This is an interesting solution. Given that wizards/alchemists are the ones to create simulacrums for the most part, how would you work with creatures that cast spells/SLAs as a cleric?I would add that, in order for the simulacrum to have the spell like or spell casting abilities of the original creature, the caster must supply an additional value of ruby dust equal to the cost to create a command word magical item with the spell like or spell casting ability desired, with the no space limit modifier, and requiring the caster to be able to cast the spells in question. Thus, a Genie to give you 3 wishes a day would cost:
10 HD: 5000 GP
Command Word Wish, 3x/Day, no Slot: 1800 * 9 * 17 * 0.6 * 2 = 330480 GP
Material Component x50: 1250000 GP
Total: 1.58548 Million GPWhich seems like a much closer price to the value of what you're actually getting. Basically, you get something that should be priced at 1.5 millionish GP for 5000 by the base rules; any violation of the wealth by level guidelines that flagrant is going to shred game balance fast. It would still leave it as useful for impersonating people, creating mundane bodyguards and such, but would prevent (or at least correctly cost) most of the really abusive things you can do with it.
This doesn't fix the problem entirely, but it should get close enough to make the spell much, much closer to fair. I would flavor the change by stating that imbuing such powerful magics into the simulacrum takes the large amount of ruby dust to hold the magical energy to power it.
It might just be best to only let them cast spells/SLAs that the creator also has on their list and can access. One of the (many) abusive things you can do with Simulacrum is effectively get access to all spell lists by copying the correct creatures.
On the other hand, once the cost is built it, its not really that abusive anymore, so maybe I would just say that someone has to cast the spell as part of the simulacrum construction, and let the caster either cast it themselves, use a scroll, hire someone or have a friend do it. Or just drop the requirement entirely, since I think the cost one is the most important balancing factor.
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It is useful for plotlines as well. For example,
Drahliana, the level 20 Wizard decides before she goes face the hordes of demons, to create a simulacrum to handle the minor works in her Casters Tower. Drahliana tells the Simulacrum, I will return in about a month.
Unfortunately, Drahliana vanished without a trace. The Simulacrum possessing half her spells decides to seek out a group of adventures who can free the original. Or worse, the Simulacrum can turn to evil methods to resurrect or assume Drahliana's life. There is nothing wrong with the Simulacrum spell, the problem comes from player's abusing the spell.
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There is nothing wrong with the Simulacrum spell, the problem comes from player's abusing the spell.
"... at least using it a manner that constitutes as abuse for a given table."
(I'd add that part as I think it's pretty important.) ;D
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Definitely not as mathematically sound as some of the above suggestions... But I'd suggest making any Simulacrum effectively a Construct minus the bonus HP.
There are already enough spells to deal with constructs specifically, it's made of snow, and it's Always under your absolute command. While an illusory duplicate, it seems to fit the bill in most other ways.
It'll encourage you to make smaller Simulacrums for the benefits that come with that creature type, and it'll discourage you from making massive, all-powerful Tarrasque-level Simulacrums because there's always the possibility of someone casting Control Construct...
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You could make it so that you have to "give" the simulacrum your slots/prepared spells/SLAs per day for it to be able to use them, and they remain unavailable to the creator in the mean time. There would need to be further limitations, I think, but it's a start.
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Reference:
SnoCone-Wish-Machine
Simulacrum thread.
James Jacobs' thoughts can be found in the latter thread, as well as many questions answered.
I would put back the material component requirement, as that eliminates a lot of the abuse since you can no longer easily get many high powered creatures.
Adding to the cost won't stop anything. At the level you get the spell, you can afford several. And you can get fabricate and other money making spells. Of course, Blood Money can bypass that also.
Capping the number controlled, is mechanically easier, and the undead caps seem to work for undead.
However, I have rarely played in a game where I could actually get the spell off. :-(
As to knowledge, the spell states:
It appears to be the same as the original, but it has only half of the real creature's levels or HD (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD).
I would say you get generic knowledge that the creature would have, and none of the specific knowledge the creature had. I.e. you need to provide a spell book for a simulacrum wizard. You can get general knowledge that that kind of creature would have, but nothing about their lair, secrets, or other stuff considered intel.
/cevah
Reference:
SnoCone-Wish-Machine
Simulacrum thread.
James Jacobs' thoughts can be found in the latter thread, as well as many questions answered.I would put back the material component requirement, as that eliminates a lot of the abuse since you can no longer easily get many high powered creatures.
Adding to the cost won't stop anything. At the level you get the spell, you can afford several. And you can get fabricate and other money making spells. Of course, Blood Money can bypass that also.
Capping the number controlled, is mechanically easier, and the undead caps seem to work for undead.
However, I have rarely played in a game where I could actually get the spell off. :-(
As to knowledge, the spell states:
It appears to be the same as the original, but it has only half of the real creature's levels or HD (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD).I would say you get generic knowledge that the creature would have, and none of the specific knowledge the creature had. I.e. you need to provide a spell book for a simulacrum wizard. You can get general knowledge that that kind of creature would have, but nothing about their lair, secrets, or other stuff considered intel.
I'd fix it to that the simulacrum gets no spells or SLA.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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I'd also require that an actual piece of the creature be required, not as a material component(no free samples in a spell component pouch!) but as an additional special requirement for the spell.
For special abilities, it depends on the target creature:
If it has class levels, it gets half those levels with whatever abilities are appropriate thereto.
If it has monster HD, it get half HD. List all of its special abilities, SLAs, and so forth, from strongest to weakest. Remove the strongest half. That pretty much guarantees no nonsense like wishes but lets the monster retain some abilities for flavor.
Simulacrum creatures retain skill ranks(adjusted for half level or HD), but do not automatically know personal details of their progenitor's life.
Here's some examples:
A dragon: Half HD, half damage on the breath weapon, SA save DCs recalculated with half HD, half sorcerer levels for casting and spell list recalibrated to match, special abilities of dragon of half age category. Reduce feats to appropriate to new HD. Dragon retains size, attack modes, and ability scores so is still fairly formidable.
An efreeti: Now 5 HD, lose wish, plane shift, permanent image, wall of fire, and gaseous form. CL on remaining SLAs now 5, and feats reduced to account for 5 HD.
At least that's how I'd run it.
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One idea might be to limit what can be duplicated in some ways that the polymorph subschool of spells is limited (as in, give a discrete list of abilities that can be provided).
I have always done this with our house rule. A simulacrum gains a penalty equal to the base creature's modifier, if positive, to it's corresponding ability score. If a creature possesses a penalty, do not reduce the score.
For example,
Str 22, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 8, Cha 12
would become
Str 16, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 8, Cha 10
A solar
Str 28, Dex 20, Con 30, Int 23, Wis 27, Cha 25
would become
Str 19, Dex 15, Con 20, Int 17, Wis 19, Cha 18
===============Simulacrum Solar================
Solar Simulacrum CR 12
NG Large outsider (angel, extraplanar, good)
Init +6; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, detect evil, detect snares and pits, true seeing; Perception
Aura protective aura
DEFENSE
AC 30, touch 11, flat-footed 28 (+2 Dex, +19 natural, –1 size; +4 deflection vs. evil)
hp 115 (11d10+55); regeneration 15 (evil artifacts, effects, and spells)
Fort +12, Ref +5, Will +11; +4 vs. poison, +4 resistance vs. evil
DR 15/epic and evil; Immune acid, cold, petrification; Resist electricity 10, fire 10; SR 23
OFFENSE
Speed 50 ft., fly 150 ft. (good); 35 ft.
Melee slam +14 (2d8+6)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 10th)
Constant—detect evil, detect snares and pits, discern lies (DC 18), true seeing
At Will—aid, animate objects, commune, continual flame, dimensional anchor, greater dispel magic, holy smite (DC 18), imprisonment (DC 23), invisibility (self only), lesser restoration, remove curse, remove disease, remove fear, resist energy, summon monster VII, speak with dead (DC 17), waves of fatigue
3/day—blade barrier (DC 20), earthquake (DC 22), heal, mass charm monster (DC 22), permanency, resurrection, waves of exhaustion
1/day—greater restoration, power word blind, power word kill, power word stun, prismatic spray (DC 21), wish
Spells Prepared (CL 10th)
5th—
4th—
3rd—
2nd—
1st—
0 (at will)—detect magic, purify food and drink, stabilize, virtue
STATISTICS
Str 19, Dex 15, Con 20, Int 17, Wis 19, Cha 18
Base Atk +11; CMB +16; CMD 28
Feats Cleave, Deadly Aim, Dodge, Improved Initiative, Improved Sunder, Power Attack
Skills
Languages Celestial, Draconic, Infernal; truespeech
SQ change shape (alter self)
SPECIAL ABILITIES
Slaying Arrow (Su)
A simulacrum solar's bow needs no ammunition, and automatically creates a slaying arrow of the solar's choice when drawn.
Spells
Simulacrum Solars can cast divine spells as 10th-level clerics. They do not gain access to domains or other cleric abilities.
I would add that, in order for the simulacrum to have the spell like or spell casting abilities of the original creature, the caster must supply an additional value of ruby dust equal to the cost to create a command word magical item with the spell like or spell casting ability desired, with the no space limit modifier, and requiring the caster to be able to cast the spells in question. Thus, a Genie to give you 3 wishes a day would cost:
10 HD: 5000 GP
Command Word Wish, 3x/Day, no Slot: 1800 * 9 * 17 * 0.6 * 2 = 330480 GP
Material Component x50: 1250000 GP
Total: 1.58548 Million GP
Indeedly so, however I have dealt with monsters who have Shades as a spell-like ability as a CR 8. The good o' moon doggies. Me personally, if a player feels he has to cheese good for him. Remember, the golden rule with wishcrafting. The safest method of wish is duplicating spells. If you also want to make it realistic. Make the DC 20+CR to determine if they even know about the creature as they have never seen one.
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History Lesson:
Debuted in Supplement I: Greyhawk, as a magic-user spell. Dragon Magazine #12 put this spell on the Illusionist list, at a lower level
Spell Level 7 (magic-user) or 5 (illusionist)
Snow (either natural or created with an ice storm) shaped into the form must be magically animated, with a limited wish cast to give it the form and personality of a real person that the caster wishes to create a simulacrum of. The creature will be a visual duplicate of that person, but they will be loyal to the spellcaster. It has 3d2 x 10% of the duplicated person's own abilities (knowledge, level, etc.). Close association with the real person will reveal the simulacrum to be a pale imitation, as will viewing the two side-by-side. A detect magic spell will also reveal the ruse. If the real person that the duplicate is of dies, the simulacrum will slowly gain more of their abilities (+1%/week) until it is 90% identical to the creature it is duplicating -- beyond that, it cannot go.
Illusion
Level: 7
Casting time: 12 Hours
Range: Touch
Components: V, S, M (snow or ice in quantities sufficient to made a life-size copy of the duplicated creature; some hair, fingernail clippings, or other piece of that creature’s body placed inside the snow or ice; and powdered ruby worth 1,500 gp, sprinkled over the duplicate and consumed by the spell)
Duration: Until dispelled
You shape an illusory duplicate of one beast or humanoid that is within range for the entire casting time of the spell.
The duplicate is a creature, partially real and formed from ice or snow, and it can take actions and otherwise be affected as a normal creature. It appears to be the same as the original, but it has half the creature’s hit point maximum and is formed without any equipment. Otherwise, the illusion uses all the statistics of the creature it duplicates.
The simulacrum is friendly to you and creatures you designate. It obeys your spoken commands, moving and acting in accordance with your wishes and acting on your turn in combat. The simulacrum lacks the ability to learn or become more powerful, so it never increases its level or other abilities, nor can it regain expended spell slots.
If the simulacrum is damaged, you can repair it in an alchemical laboratory, using rare herbs and minerals worth 100 gp per hit point it regains. The simulacrum lasts until it drops to 0 hit points, at which point it reverts to snow and melts instantly.
If you cast this spell again, any currently active duplicates you created with this spell are instantly destroyed.
Illusion (Shadow)
Level: Sor/Wiz 7
Components: V, S, M, XP
Casting Time: 12 hours
Range: 0 ft.
Effect: One duplicate creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
Simulacrum creates an illusory duplicate of any creature. The duplicate creature is partially real and formed from ice or snow. It appears to be the same as the original, but it has only one-half of the real creature’s levels or Hit Dice (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD). You can’t create a simulacrum of a creature whose Hit Dice or levels exceed twice your caster level. You must make a Disguise check when you cast the spell to determine how good the likeness is. A creature familiar with the original might detect the ruse with a successful Spot check (opposed by the caster’s Disguise check) or a DC 20 Sense Motive check.
At all times the simulacrum remains under your absolute command. No special telepathic link exists, so command must be exercised in some other manner. A simulacrum has no ability to become more powerful. It cannot increase its level or abilities. If reduced to 0 hit points or otherwise destroyed, it reverts to snow and melts instantly into nothingness. A complex process requiring at least 24 hours, 100 gp per hit point, and a fully equipped magical laboratory can repair damage to a simulacrum.
Material Component
The spell is cast over the rough snow or ice form, and some piece of the creature to be duplicated (hair, nail, or the like) must be placed inside the snow or ice. Additionally, the spell requires powdered ruby worth 100 gp per HD of the simulacrum to be created.
XP Cost
100 XP per HD of the simulacrum to be created (minimum 1,000 XP).
While Efteet are a common theoretical target, here are some others that are not so outrageous:
Hag - make your own coven.
Succubus - make a loyal lady to safely give you [and friends] their profane gift.
/cevah
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It is useful for plotlines as well. For example,
Drahliana, the level 20 Wizard decides before she goes face the hordes of demons, to create a simulacrum to handle the minor works in her Casters Tower. Drahliana tells the Simulacrum, I will return in about a month.Unfortunately, Drahliana vanished without a trace. The Simulacrum possessing half her spells decides to seek out a group of adventures who can free the original. Or worse, the Simulacrum can turn to evil methods to resurrect or assume Drahliana's life. There is nothing wrong with the Simulacrum spell, the problem comes from player's abusing the spell.
I don't see the need for the Simulacrum to have spells to accomplish this.
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I disagree with the notion of making a discreet list of abilities like many of the polymorph spells. It's just not versatile enough. I recommend a template be used instead. Said template will limit the HD and any spellcasting abilities of the sim to half that of the animator - 2 spell levels (mimimum none, ncluding spell-like abilities). It will also set other limitations, such as having the DCs of the sim's extraordinary and supernatural abilities mat that of the animator's simulacrum spell DC.
So a 14th-level sorcerer could create a really big elder dragon, but said elder dragon would only possess 7 HD, be able to cast 5th-level spells and spell-like abilities, and would use his spell DC for the dragon's breath weapon.
I also agree that he would need a piece of the dragon to start.
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You guys are all aware you can't heal this thing's hit points, right? (requires costly repair in a lab... you can't repair it via cure spells or repair construct...)
i.e. I'll summon monster any day before spending thousands of gold pieces on a one shot monster... for regular day-to-day non combat uses, lesser simulacrum does the job.
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You guys are all aware you can't heal this thing's hit points, right? (requires costly repair in a lab... you can't repair it via cure spells or repair construct...)
How many HP do infinite wishes from an Efreeti simulacrum deplete? How many HP per day does a simulacrum with a True Resurrection scroll lose while it waits to use the scroll if its creator hasn't checked in within 30 days? How does the restriction on healing do anything to limit simulacrums of creatures that have Fast Healing or Regeneration? How many of the actual game balance issues with simulacrums are you familiar with?
Lesser Simulacrum can't do any out of combat uses, it doesn't get any magical abilities and doesn't obey the creator.
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Maybe one day we'll get that Simulacrum blog...
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You guys are all aware you can't heal this thing's hit points, right? (requires costly repair in a lab... you can't repair it via cure spells or repair construct...)How many HP do infinite wishes from an Efreeti simulacrum deplete? How many HP per day does a simulacrum with a True Resurrection scroll lose while it waits to use the scroll if its creator hasn't checked in within 30 days? How does the restriction on healing do anything to limit simulacrums of creatures that have Fast Healing or Regeneration? How many of the actual game balance issues with simulacrums are you familiar with?
I think the Efreeti problem is not necessarily due to the simularcrum spell, but due to the fact that it's only 10 HD, yet is able to cast a wish.
Perhaps a good general limitation would be that the duplicate created cannot use spell like abilities if the caster of the simulacrum spell is not of the required level to cast the equivalent spell himself.
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Scroll? show me where the spells says it creates 'gear' for the duplicated creature. All it says is "the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD"
Also, spell rules override general rules, i.e. "If reduced to 0 hit points or otherwise destroyed, it reverts to snow and melts instantly into nothingness. A complex process requiring at least 24 hours, 100 gp per hit point, and a fully equipped magical laboratory can repair damage to a simulacrum."
Therefore, no fast healing or regen for simulacrums, sorry.
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You guys are all aware you can't heal this thing's hit points, right? (requires costly repair in a lab... you can't repair it via cure spells or repair construct...)How many HP do infinite wishes from an Efreeti simulacrum deplete? How many HP per day does a simulacrum with a True Resurrection scroll lose while it waits to use the scroll if its creator hasn't checked in within 30 days? How does the restriction on healing do anything to limit simulacrums of creatures that have Fast Healing or Regeneration? How many of the actual game balance issues with simulacrums are you familiar with?I think the Efreeti problem is not necessarily due to the simularcrum spell, but due to the fact that it's only 10 HD, yet is able to cast a wish.
Perhaps a good general limitation would be that the duplicate created cannot use spell like abilities if the caster of the simulacrum spell is not of the required level to cast the equivalent spell himself.
...an even better limitation would be that the simulacrum of a low CR monster with over the top spell-like abilities should not be able to replicate these abilities. Aboleth is CR 7 with Dominate Monster (a 9th level spell)
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Scroll? show me where the spells says it creates 'gear' for the duplicated creature. All it says is "the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD"
Also, spell rules override general rules, i.e. "If reduced to 0 hit points or otherwise destroyed, it reverts to snow and melts instantly into nothingness. A complex process requiring at least 24 hours, 100 gp per hit point, and a fully equipped magical laboratory can repair damage to a simulacrum."
Therefore, no fast healing or regen for simulacrums, sorry.
You give the simulacrum a scroll. The point is that it gives you a completely reliable creature to activate your dead man's switch, not that it creates the dead man's switch.
It appears to be the same as the original, but it has only half of the real creature's levels or HD (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD).
Fast Healing and Regeneration are special abilities of creatures.
I'm not convinced a sim of a creature with fast healing or regeneration can't replenish its hp.
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No simulacrum wish machines.
No simulacrum exploits with casting spells.
Problem solved (imo).
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...an even better limitation would be that the simulacrum of a low CR monster with over the top spell-like abilities should not be able to replicate these abilities. Aboleth is CR 7 with Dominate Monster (a 9th level spell)
The problem with this is that with this kind of rule, you get table variation. If a sim that is created by a 17th level wizard (who already will have wish 1x/day) is entirely reasonable. One created by a wizard who does not, isn't, or one created via a sim scroll.
one HUGE hole in the whole efreeti wish machine idea is that it is a wish from an efreet. yeah... nothing is going to go awry at all... (Mr. GM has a large grin on his face). Any GM should hardily encourage such foolishness to bring the entire scheme to a highly amusing climax (well, for everyone but the caster...).
That is directly opposed the nature of simulacrum.
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If you're a highly intelligent Wizard with the time to create highly detailed Wish structures and able to test them on other subjects for undesired sideffects, not much.
"I wish for the dog at least 3' but no more than 10' in front of me, with feet defined by the measurement system used by the government of Land I Currently Reside In, and that I am presently looking at, and wearing a pink collar with a tag reading "Fido" in the Common tongue, to receive, subject to the following 93 reservations, exceptions, and clarifications [state them], the following benefit..."
Nothing went wrong? Use it on yourself.
If you're a highly intelligent Wizard with the time to create highly detailed Wish structures and able to test them on other subjects for undesired sideffects, not much.
"I wish for the dog at least 3' but no more than 10' in front of me, with feet defined by the measurement system used by the government of Land I Currently Reside In, and that I am presently looking at, and wearing a pink collar with a tag reading "Fido" in the Common tongue, to receive, subject to the following 93 reservations, exceptions, and clarifications [state them], the following benefit..."
Nothing went wrong? Use it on yourself.
There is no universe in which this will end well.
If I were the GM, I would say the wish needs to be clearly stated in no more time than is required to perform the standard action to cast said wish.
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Then you write it down and incorporate it by reference. "I wish for what is written down in this book to happen."