portraying gender neutral / agendered characters


Advice

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To the OP specifically, for how the world should respond, and particularly Golarion, they honestly shouldn't find this particularly unusual and most folks would simply acknowledge it and hell, maybe not even presume the identities of anyone. Try to keep to a habit of using 'they' and 'them', and 'themself' for NPC's addressing someone who they do not know or have just met but haven't heard the pronouns of. I would presume it an act of politeness in a more inclusive society, and for people to quickly apologise and adjust when asked to use a different pronoun.

I would need to know how fundamental it might be for them to be agender, but as others have suggested, it could be that through their gender identity they have come to a spiritual conclusion, which largely colours their world perspective and allows them a greater attunement with their faith. Arshea and even Shelyn are both gods who either focus in the former's case or partially represent in the latter's a representation of beauty and celebration of self-identity. An agender character could be drawn to that. In fact, Paizo's Hells Rebels even has a suggested NPC for Shelyn who is very much coded as being genderfluid. That is, can be both genders, but moved between representations over time. But ultimately, if they just want their agenderness to just be a thing, and not much more than that, I think simply doing my first suggestion should be enough and fully realistic in a world inhabited by a myriad of strange and non-humanoid and humanoid entities, who more than likely do not fall into the same categorization as humans in our world seem intent on pushing on ourselves, and even that is extremely inaccurate and loaded with a history of presumptions and violence no less.

Thinking of how to make a character feel inclusive in a world is a great thing and I love that you are taking the time and consideration to do it.


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Robin-Shìdh wrote:


<some very interesting and helpful information>

Also…

1. There are construct races. People loved the Warforged and there are a lot of ports into Pathfinder. Since they do not reproduce sexually, there's really no reason for them to possess a gender (an gender should be a foreign concept to most of them).

2. There are plant races. Although plant races tend to be portrayed as feminine or androgynous, there is no reason that they can't be portrayed as ‘neither’.

3. I like to think that the gender of Nagaji works a lot like clownfish. For the unfamiliar, clownfish travel in packs. The most dominant is the female, the second is the male, and the rest are ‘not’. When a male or female dies, the next most dominant takes their place. I like the concept of a not-a-gender Nagaji giving up on the family life and taking up the life of an adventurer.

4. Alternately, non-mammal races would in fact possess a gender, but would not necessarily be sexually dimorphic. Tengu, Lizardfolk, and Kobolds are good candidates for a lack of difference in the genders (although this is more androgyny than agender).

Now this isn't to say that you need to express non-binary sexuality strictly through non-human races, but it could make it easier to understand if you have players you think would struggle with non-binary gender concepts.


Andrew Mullen wrote:
In summary, I'm unfamiliar with this subject, so any advice or experience is helpful!

I have no experience, so put this advice at the bottom of the heap.

I think you should be sure to consider how the other players are going to act as well as you and the player in question. It's potentially an area where people could get hurt, imo.

I play with two groups, one of whom includes someone with strong homophobic views and a propensity for making them known. As a consequence, gender and sexuality are no-go subjects when I run games with her (I still try and use gender neutral language, but I'm not terribly good at that anyhow).

I think if one of the other players wanted to do something like your player wants to, I'd either suggest they do so in the other group I run or do so when my homophobic player wasn't there. (I don't think one should avoid the issue as a general rule, but I've learnt over the years that this is not an area worth me discussing with her).


well - human languages have gender as we have sexes. There are usually 2-4 used in languages.
be that as it may...
the character could be an android, plant, outsider, aberration, or other creature that reproduces asexually. Maybe the player should read up on biology and reproduction.

What race is being used? Is it something that they are just imagining or does it have some in game aspect (which is still imaginary...).

Generally roleplaying is a place to try out different ideas and see how they play out. With adult players it's not too big a deal and see how the group dynamics work. It could work out or not. Just remain open to ideas and keep things civil.

Probably the best thing to do is to have the player write up a background story of 500 words and then review it with notes. Make sure it fits into what you (as GM) believe to be the backdrop of your game.

Grand Lodge

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Robin-Shìdh wrote:

Here are some suggestions for you and your player for ways they can make the character's gender identity an important characteristic while also being largely a roleplaying aspect which can come up or not as needed. I'll note that all my characters are nonbinary, like myself, so this may be more general than specifically agender, but much of it can be adapted to meet the specific gender in question.

1. Worshipper of Arshea. Arshea is a NG Empyreal Lord of freedom, physical beauty and sexuality. Arshea is depicted as male and female alike, embodying the most attractive physical aspects of the aforementioned genders, but always shown as androgynous. Almost like Desire of the Endless but with less wanton cruelty.

2. Dwarven Rivethun. The Rivethun are specifically Dwarven transfeminine individuals who keep the ancient lore. Shardra, the iconic Shaman, is an example. They fill a similar role as Two-Spirit individuals in many Indigenous American cultures--their role is to lead the cultural and spiritual development of their people, but they typically hold no allegiance to the Dwarven pantheon, instead revering the stone itself. Do they not want to play a Dwarf? What about someone with the "Adopted" trait, who was abandoned on the mountain and found by a Rivethun matron? Perhaps they're not Rivethun themself, but what happens to a child raised without heavy emphasis placed on being male or female?

3. Changelings are always assigned female, but that doesn't mean they have to actually be women. Hags are matriarchal, after all, and value femaleness. What happens to a Changeling who transitions, or an agender Changeling who feels no connection to gender at all?

4. Faegender comes up in fantasy settings sometimes, especially among fey-oriented races like gnomes or elves. It's a gender which literally changes with the seasons, often incorporating aspects we associate with them, such as more masculine in autumn/winter and more feminine in spring/summer. I have a faegender gnome actually, and fae is my favorite character to play--it fits in with the gnomish love of change so well, and just really works with the character.

^ This is what this thread needs more of... beautiful, creative suggestions that speak straight to the original poster's concern.

BTW, even if Faegender does not exist currently in Golarian's canon, I now want to play a faegender gnome, because it sounds so very cool.

Hmm

Designer

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Hey everyone, this thread is getting heated, so I'm going to temporarily lock it until tomorrow for people to be back in the office and have a chance to look at it more carefully and give it the attention it deserves.

Community & Digital Content Director

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Removed a number of posts, their responses, and unlocking.

The Advice subforum has a very specific central purpose: to be a space for folks to solicit for and provide advice for others for their Pathfinder RPG characters or campaigns (this is outlined in the Advice Forum Guidelines). Emotionally charged and negative responses (such as taunts, baiting commentary, or insults) that essentially undermine the end result the original poster is seeking (in this case, advice for how to portray gender neutral characters in their campaign) erode at the purpose of this space.

We strive to make the paizo.com forums an inclusive and friendly space. Discussions surrounding gender and sexuality need to be kept respectful, as participants in this space come from a variety of backgrounds and personal experiences. If you are unfamiliar with a term or are confused about the distinction between gender/sex in the context of a given conversation, asking questions is fine (doing a some cursory searching online to shed light on those questions is also a good idea), but it is less-than-helpful for everyone involved to to respond with snark or incredulity (and can in fact be harmful to others). We ask that participants in these discussions approach them in good faith and be open to the possibility that their understanding of a subject may not be the reality of someone else in the same conversation.


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Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Since you're stipulating that Golarion is agender-friendly, you might want to have the occasional agender NPC to reinforce that it's not just the PC.

Since this topic is available again I just wanna say this is an absolutely top-notch suggestion and definitely something I recommend.

Thank you.

Community & Digital Content Director

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Removed an additional post, and a post it looks like we missed. If you have an issue with a moderation decision or questions about moderation, please take it to our Website Feedback thread or community@paizo.com.

Liberty's Edge

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Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote:

Since this topic is available again I just wanna say this is an absolutely top-notch suggestion and definitely something I recommend.

Thank you.

Hence our perennial quest-giver NPC Jod being agender, though somehow no one noticed that until like their third adventure :0

Advice: Just say they're agender when the party meets them. Distracted players seem to unconsciously assign binary genders to ambiguous characters (this goes for GM-players like me as well), so you gotta head that off as soon as possible. And honestly, reminding people about pronouns every time they get them wrong saves a lot of headaches and bad feelings down the line, even if it causes tension in the short term - I tried minimal reminders with my neutrois character in an Iron Gods game, but the GM still f&+*ed up after a whole adventure. It takes consistent reminders to change ingrained habits. Sometimes, that means that the character's gender becomes a way bigger thing in the minds of other players than you wanted it to be, but once you've established this basic aspect of their character you get to build other aspects on the right footing.

(This is more for NPCs than PCs - maybe some players would want to roleplay a coming out of the closet scenario, but I think that should be handled much more carefully with NPCs.)


Chris Lambertz wrote:
Removed an additional post, and a post it looks like we missed. If you have an issue with a moderation decision or questions about moderation, please take it to our Website Feedback thread or community@paizo.com.

Thank you. I don't appreciate a double-standard, so I'm glad you fixed that.


Gark the Goblin wrote:


Advice: Just say they're agender when the party meets them. Distracted players seem to unconsciously assign binary genders to ambiguous characters (this goes for GM-players like me as well), so you gotta head that off as soon as possible.

That's because it's normal to unconsciously do that. Agender is a very small deviation from the norm that most people rarely, if ever, encounter in any meaningful fashion, and many languages have not only gendered pronouns, but gendered nouns as well (French, for example).

When you introduce a character, it's going to be a little weird to list "You see who you have been told is Lieutenant Ayar waiting to show you to your place at the battlements. They are human, about 5 and a half feet tall, wearing well-polished half-plate armour, and they have a well-kept scimitar in a scabbard at their hip. They have medium length brown hair, green eyes, and OH BY THE WAY THIS CHARACTER IS AGENDER SO GET THE PRONOUNS RIGHT. They greet you amicably with a raised hand, a nod, and a smile."
Any good roleplayer is going to respond with "How does my character know that they're agender? Did the Guard Captain tell us? Is that a common thing in this area?"
Just let the conversation flow naturally, and if the NPC needs to correct them, they do so. The other NPCs in the area may know the character, but the party doesn't. I can't imagine simple polite clarification is unusual for real-life agender people. Alternatively, depending on the location, one of the NPC's friends may inform the party before they meet them. This would work well if the NPC in question would be too shy to make a correction themself.


Nah, I'm a good roleplayer and I'd just go with it, so it's not "any" good roleplayer. It's fine to handle some things expediently out of character.

There's also no need for anybody to shout during the explanation.


QuidEst wrote:

Nah, I'm a good roleplayer and I'd just go with it, so it's not "any" good roleplayer. It's fine to handle some things expediently out of character.

There's also no need for anybody to shout during the explanation.

I was being hyperbolic.

I also gave suggestions of how it could be handled in-character instead of magically-apparent gender identity.

Sovereign Court

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Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

@Bloodrealm: Have you seen the SNL skits about Pat? Openly agender NPCs can easily present themselves as androgynous. Nonbinary doesn't necessarily mean agender, but it at least prompts the PCs to ask before making presumptions about pronouns.

Character introductions don't need to be "weird," as you say.

Dark Archive

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Bloodrealm wrote:
Gark the Goblin wrote:


Advice: Just say they're agender when the party meets them. Distracted players seem to unconsciously assign binary genders to ambiguous characters (this goes for GM-players like me as well), so you gotta head that off as soon as possible.

That's because it's normal to unconsciously do that. Agender is a very small deviation from the norm that most people rarely, if ever, encounter in any meaningful fashion, and many languages have not only gendered pronouns, but gendered nouns as well (French, for example).

When you introduce a character, it's going to be a little weird to list "You see who you have been told is Lieutenant Ayar waiting to show you to your place at the battlements. They are human, about 5 and a half feet tall, wearing well-polished half-plate armour, and they have a well-kept scimitar in a scabbard at their hip. They have medium length brown hair, green eyes, and OH BY THE WAY THIS CHARACTER IS AGENDER SO GET THE PRONOUNS RIGHT. They greet you amicably with a raised hand, a nod, and a smile."
Any good roleplayer is going to respond with "How does my character know that they're agender? Did the Guard Captain tell us? Is that a common thing in this area?"
Just let the conversation flow naturally, and if the NPC needs to correct them, they do so. The other NPCs in the area may know the character, but the party doesn't. I can't imagine simple polite clarification is unusual for real-life agender people. Alternatively, depending on the location, one of the NPC's friends may inform the party before they meet them. This would work well if the NPC in question would be too shy to make a correction themself.

How about:

GM: "You see who you have been told is Lieutenant Ayar waiting to show you to your place at the battlements. They are human, about 5 and a half-feet tall, wearing well-polished half-plate armor, and they have a well-kept scimitar in a scabbard at their hip. They have medium length brown hair and green eyes."
Player 1: "I want to ask him--her--wait, I'm not actually sure. Are they a guy or a girl?"
GM: "Let me double-check the stat block. Here it is--neither, actually. Agender--just refer to them as 'they' or 'them.'
Player 1: "Okay. So, I want to ask them..."

We have these kinds of conversations all the time. Introduce someone with the information available (even if we're the ones who wrote it), and check when we get questions. In this case, you don't need a concrete reason for your player to know it. Your GM has told you. It's not as if you need concrete evidence that the person you're talking to is male or female, either--the GM mentions it, probably with a 'he' or 'she' pronoun, and so you take it as face value. This is the same thing.

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