zainale |
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Primalist:
This ability alters the bloodline class feature.it does not alter
Bloodrage:
Bloodrage counts as the barbarian's rage class feature for the purpose of feat prerequisites, feat abilities, magic item abilities, and spell effects.
i take two levels of barbarian to get the rage power beast totem,lesser. should allow me to take beast totem at lvl 12 bloodrager
beast totem
Prerequisite: Barbarian 6, lesser beast totem rage power.
Bloodrage Rage Powers
Any character meeting the prerequisites can take the following new rage powers. Blood rage powers grant powers in a theme. A barbarian cannot select from more than one group of blood rage powers. A barbarian of any level can take a lesser blood rage power. The middle blood rage power (that without "lesser" or "greater" in the title) can only be taken by a 6th level or higher barbarian that already has the lesser blood rage power of its group. A greater blood rage power can only be taken by a 10th level or higher barbarian that already has the middle blood rage power.
I don't see any issues. I meet the requirements for beast totem via barbarian lvl 2. I have the ability to rage. not once but twice.
P.S. i could not think of a good subject title sorry if it's faulty.
UnArcaneElection |
Primal Choices: At 4th level and every 4 levels thereafter, a primalist can choose to take either his bloodline power or two barbarian rage powers. If the primalist chooses rage powers, those rage powers can be used in conjunction with his bloodrage, and his bloodrager level acts as his barbarian level when determining the effect of those bloodrage powers and any prerequisites. Any other prerequisites for a rage power must be met before a primalist can choose it. This ability does not count as the rage power class feature for determining feat prerequisites and other requirements.
This ability alters the bloodline class feature.
The part where it says "his bloodrager level acts as his barbarian level when determining the effect of those bloodrage powers and any prerequisites" sounds to me like Bloodrager levels count as Barbarian levels for the purpose of qualifying for Rage Powers when using this archetype.
zainale |
at lvl two barbarian i pick up beast totem, lesser. then when i get to lvl twelve bloodrager i use the primalist archetype to pick up both beast totem and beast totem, greater using the the beast totem, lesser i got at barbarian lvl two. my total level would be 14.
barbarian lvl 2 gets beast totem, lesser
bloodrager lvl 12 using the fact that he has the lesser beast totem from his barbarian level dips picks up beast totem which only says you need to have beast totem lesser to pick up the next two stages.
the two levels of barbarian locks my development later on by picking up the lesser beast totem. the rage totem says "a character who selects a beast totem rage power cannot later choose to gain a dragon totem rage power." so my bloodrager can only chose the next step in the totem rages.
Saethori |
The rage power you pick up with your Barbarian levels is a barbarian class feature. It does not carry over to Bloodrager.
Bloodrager cannot use Lesser Beast Totem unless it picks it up using its own Primalist archetype. And it cannot use rage powers gained as a barbarian to qualify for prerequisites of rage powers gained as a bloodrager.
"Use your bloodrager level as your barbarian level" only means you substitute one for the other. They do not stack unless you have wording more similar to "your bloodrager levels count as barbarian levels".
Mathmuse |
I examined the rules carefully, and zainale's plan works.
In the Core Rulebook, the rage powers did not have other rage powers as prerequisites. A few had a level requirement, "A barbarian must be at least 8th level before selecting this rage power." The Advanced Player's Guide introduced rage powers that have other rage powers as prerequisites.
Presented below are a number of new rage powers to help you customize your barbarian, as well as several classic barbarian archetypes to help you in building your character, each one including a number of suggested rage powers that, while not mandatory, work to flesh out the character concept. Rage powers marked with an asterisk (*) can be found in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook.
Rage Powers (Ex): The following new rage powers can be taken by any barbarian that meets the prerequisites. Totem rage powers grant powers in a theme. A barbarian cannot select from more than one group of totem rage powers. For example, a barbarian that selects a beast totem rage power cannot later chose to gain any of the spirit totem rage powers.
Beast Totem (Su): While raging, the barbarian gains a +1 natural armor bonus. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels the barbarian has attained. A barbarian must have the lesser beast totem rage power to select this rage power. A barbarian must be at least 6th level to select this rage power.
...
The barbarian rage power class ability does not define the prerequisites on the rage powers; instead, the rage power itself gives the rules for its selection. There is no requirement that the rage power come from the barbarian's rage power class feature. In fact, it could have come from the Extra Rage Power Feat, also introduced in the Advanced Player's Guide.
Extra Rage Power
You have unlocked a new ability to use while raging.
Prerequisite: Rage power class feature.
Benefit: You gain one additional rage power. You must meet all of the prerequisites for this rage power.
Special: You can gain Extra Rage Power multiple times.
Since the only way to get rage powers was through the barbarian class or a feat that required a barbarian class feature, we had no problem about the source of a rage power. It was tied to the barbarian.
Then came the Advanced Class Guide with Primalist Bloodrager and Skald.
The Skald rage powers are the simple case, so let me cover them first. The Skald Rage Powers class ability explicitly says,
Rage Powers (Ex)
...
If the skald has rage powers from another source, he (but not his allies) can use those rage powers during an inspired rage.
...
If the skald has the ability to rage from another source, he can use his skald rage powers during that rage as well.
There are some limitations on sharing rage powers from barbarian levels and skald levels. For example, "The skald uses his skald level as his barbarian level for the purpose of selecting rage powers that require a minimum barbarian level." Thus, a barbarian 8/skald 1 character with a rage power that require 8th level barbarian could not select that power during an inspired rage because his skald level would be too low.
The Primalist Bloodrager rage powers are described in a short paragraph.
Primal Choices: At 4th level and every 4 levels thereafter, a primalist can choose to take either his bloodline power or two barbarian rage powers. If the primalist chooses rage powers, those rage powers can be used in conjunction with his bloodrage, and his bloodrager level acts as his barbarian level when determining the effect of those rage powers and any prerequisites. Any other prerequisites for a rage power must be met before a primalist can choose it. This ability does not count as the rage power class feature for the purposes of feat prerequisites and other requirements. This ability alters the bloodline class feature.
This one has stricter restrictions. Primal Choices does not qualify for the Extra Rage Power feat. The "those" in "If the primalist chooses rage powers, those rage powers can be used in conjunction with his bloodrage,..." implies that only those rage powers and not rage powers from other sources can be used during bloodrage. And by exact wording, the barbarian level does not matter for rage powers that are already selected, though this property could easily be changed by an FAQ clarification.
However, when it comes to qualifying for rage powers, Primal Choices covers only level: "his bloodrager level acts as his barbarian level when determining the effect of those rage powers and any prerequisites." Other rage powers as prerequisites are not mentioned; therefore, we default to the rules in the rage powers themselves. Thus, lesser beast totem is lesser beast totem, regardless of which source it came from. The prerequisites are satisfied.
Furthermore, the rules give a surprise bonus: nothing in the Primalist Bloodrager's Primal Choices ability stops the Primal Choices rage powers from working with the barbarian's rage. Rage powers are designed to work with barbarian's rage, and other classes select them from the barbarian's list, so no special wording is necessary to activate rage powers from another source.
zainale |
you and i read it the same, mathmuse. the rest of them nay sayers say no. i could not find anywhere that says "the bloodrager must take all rage powers and all its prerequisites."
"and his bloodrager level acts as his barbarian level when determining the effect of those rage powers and any prerequisites." is the reason my acquaintance is using for why the bloodrager can't take the next step in the beast totem line. i don't see his reason or what he means. he says bloodrager must take the beast totem lesser even though the pc already has it as a barbarian. so in sense he has to take beast totem, lesser twice before acquiring beast totem. from what he is saying i see it as a fighter/paladin must take power attack twice once for his fighter levels and again for his paladin levels. and i don't see people flipping out over a fighter/paladin only taking power attack once.
of-coarse rage powers are not feats and my bloodrager won't be growing a smaller set of claws on his bloodrager's claws. it was only useful for my barbarian before he grew in his bloodrager claws.
Kazaan |
you and i read it the same, mathmuse. the rest of them nay sayers say no. i could not find anywhere that says "the bloodrager must take all rage powers and all its prerequisites."
"and his bloodrager level acts as his barbarian level when determining the effect of those rage powers and any prerequisites." is the reason my acquaintance is using for why the bloodrager can't take the next step in the beast totem line. i don't see his reason or what he means. he says bloodrager must take the beast totem lesser even though the pc already has it as a barbarian. so in sense he has to take beast totem, lesser twice before acquiring beast totem. from what he is saying i see it as a fighter/paladin must take power attack twice once for his fighter levels and again for his paladin levels. and i don't see people flipping out over a fighter/paladin only taking power attack once.
of-coarse rage powers are not feats and my bloodrager won't be growing a smaller set of claws on his bloodrager's claws. it was only useful for my barbarian before he grew in his bloodrager claws.
Basically, it means this. If Primalist had said, "and his bloodrager level acts as his barbarian level when determining the effect of those rage powers and any prerequisites. If he has levels in barbarian, those levels stack with his Bloodrager levels for this purpose," then that'd be different. Compare the following passages:
Magus
Fighter Training (Ex): Starting at 10th level, a magus counts 1/2 his total magus level as his fighter level for the purpose of qualifying for feats. If he has levels in fighter, these levels stack.------
Brawler
Martial Training (Ex): At 1st level, a brawler counts her total brawler levels as both fighter levels and monk levels for the purpose of qualifying for feats. She also counts as both a fighter and a monk for feats and magic items that have different effects based on whether the character has levels in those classes (such as Stunning Fist or a monk's robe). This ability does not automatically grant feats normally granted to fighters and monks based on class level, such as Stunning Fist.
The difference between these two is that, despite sharing the terminology, "counts <x> levels as <y> levels", the Magus's Fighter Training needs the caveat that levels in actual Fighter stack with the "virtual" Fighter levels provided by the class feature. Brawler lacks that statement. So a Magus 10/Fighter 10 counts half his Magus levels as Fighter levels and stacks them with 10 actual Fighter levels for an effective total of 15 Fighter levels to qualify for feat prerequisites. A Brawler 10/Fighter 10, on the other hand, only counts their 10 Brawler levels as Fighter levels with no stacking so you effectively take the higher of either Brawler or Fighter to determine whether you meet a Fighter level prerequisite.
Bloodrager has no phrasing that says it stacks with other Rage abilities or can use Rage power froms another source. Primalist has no phrasing that says it stacks either. So, your Barbarian can use Barbarian Rage with the Lesser Beast Totem rage power, but if he takes levels in Bloodrager, his Bloodrage ability doesn't have access to your Lesser Beast Totem from Barbarian, so you can't satisfy that prerequisite. This is distinctly different from feats like Power Attack because a Feat is part of the character, not their class (even if the feat is granted by the class). A character with Power Attack has Power Attack even if he got it from Fighter bonus feats. There is no such thing as "Power Attack as a Fighter vs Power Attack as a Fighter/Paladin". But there is such a thing as "Rage as a Barbarian vs Bloodrage as a Bloodrager". So, in order to take Beast Totem as a Bloodrager at level 12, you need to have already taken Lesser Beast Totem as a Bloodrager.
Saethori |
The difference between these two is that, despite sharing the terminology, "counts <x> levels as <y> levels", the Magus's Fighter Training needs the caveat that levels in actual Fighter stack with the "virtual" Fighter levels provided by the class feature. Brawler lacks that statement. So a Magus 10/Fighter 10 counts half his Magus levels as Fighter levels and stacks them with 10 actual Fighter levels for an effective total of 15 Fighter levels to qualify for feat prerequisites. A Brawler 10/Fighter 10, on the other hand, only counts their 10 Brawler levels as Fighter levels with no stacking so you effectively take the higher of either Brawler or Fighter to determine whether you meet a Fighter level prerequisite.
A minor problem with this is that the wordings aren't precisely the same.
The bloodrager Primalist archetype says you treat your bloodrager level as your barbarian level. The magus class ability says you treat half your magus level as your fighter level. Both of these match the premise, "treat X as if it were Y". Without the caveat the Magus has, you replace Y with X.Brawler, unusually, has a different, distinct wording, one that doesn't appear with most effects of this type. For Brawler, they treat their levels, plural, as fighter levels and monk levels.
To figure out what this means, one needs to look at what level means.
A character's level represents his overall ability and power. There are three types of levels. Class level is the number of levels of a specific class possessed by a character. Character level is the sum of all of the levels possessed by a character in all of his classes.
So the bloodrager treats their bloodrager (class) level, the sum of all their levels in the bloodrager class, as their barbarian (class) level. The magus does so similarly, with the added caveat that they stack.
But the brawler says levels with a plural, so it actually interferes with the glossary definition of "level". Since one's class level is defined as how many individual levels in that class that character has, and brawler causes its levels to count as other classes' levels on an individual basis, class level sees your fighter level as [these levels in Fighter] as well as [these other levels which count as Fighter], without needing to worry about whether it stacks or not.
Mathmuse |
I don't understand why this thread has an argument whether barbarian levels stack with bloodrager levels for meeting the level requirement for rage powers. They don't stack, just like a Wizard 2/Sorcerer 3 character would not qualify as caster level 5 requirement for Craft Wand.
But zainale would be replacing the 12th-level bloodline power of a bloodrager with Beast Totem, which requires bloodrager level 6, and Greater Beast Totem, which requires bloodrager level 10. That is no problem.
If you want a real issue about level to argue about, how about the following. The rules as written would let zainale's barbarian2/bloodrager 12 use Beast Totem and Greater Beast Totem during his barbarian rage, not just his bloodrager bloodrage. The level requirement says the character cannot select the rage powers before 6th and 10th level, but they say nothing about not using them during a low-level barbarian rage after they are selected via Primal Choices. This interpretation depends only on a single word, so I would not be surprised if an FAQ clarification changed it, but it currently should work.
Kazaan |
@Saethori: You're splitting hairs. The pluralization in that case is a stylistic choice and wouldn't affect how it works. If things stack, the rules will say so. It says your levels in Brawler count as both Fighter levels and Monk levels. So a Brawler 10 benefits from virtual Fighter 10 and Monk 10 levels. But a Brawler 10/Fighter 10 benefits from virtual Fighter 10, Fighter 10, and Monk 10 levels. The 10 levels of Fighter are parallel, not stacked. Or, to put it another way, it's your Brawler levels that are counted as Fighter and Monk levels so, for any applicable prerequisite, you can substitute "<x> Fighter levels" or "<x> Monk levels" with "<x> Brawler levels". You can't wear a 10' stilt on each foot and say you're 20' taller.