In the real world this would be pretty bad, but in a world with magic healing readily available, which you yourself could provide, you could conceivably do half lethal and half nonlethal, then tie him up when he's unconscious and heal him back up, and still be good.
Especially if you tried to grapple and couldn't, and you had a hard time hitting him.
Is there a spell that changes your damage to non lethal without lowering tohit bonus? If so you may want to memorize it if this is going to happen again.
I guess what to do next depends I'd personally ask if I can reroll a new character, and take one that does not have a strict code. Even if you can convince him to reverse his decision you still will have the same problem.
Yeah, I haven't read the entire thread. I got to a certain point on the first page which indicated to me that this GM doesn't have the right mindset to allow Paladins at his table.
A GM who makes a Paladin fall for one marginal act is, frankly, a jerk. Regardless of anything else he/she does, it's just a douchey move.
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I will just throw in...
Martial bludgeoning weapons...
One feat, Bludgeoner...If wanting to further be amazing at knocking evil (or his possessed bros) on it's (or his) arse but with no killing...Cudgeler Style!
Do not recall that Smite damage cannot be modified by ones feats so...
Welcome to non-lethal, no attack penalty, smite town...and even if smite is not an option for a certain magus...the rest is.
Sorry bout the bruise bro, but it was for your own good, here, have a lay of hands to make the boo-boo go away...
Bonus points in my book if you call the bludgeoning weapon "Sanity"
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ryric wrote: What I see in this scenario is that the GM has this idea for a Highlander style plotline involving the black blades, and he's punishing you for interfering with his cool story. There will almost certainly be more situations down the line where the magus has to fight a "good guy" because that's how the Highlander plot goes. So long to campaign originality. Highlander? Seriously? There are quite a few fantasy novels which were written many years ago from which to "rip" a plot from. To take a second or third rate movie from the '80s and get an "enjoyable" campaign from it displays a distressing lack of imagination that the best GM's have in abundance.
facepalms, then sadly shakes head
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GM_Beernorg wrote:
Bonus points in my book if you call the bludgeoning weapon "Sanity"
Have it engraved on one side of the cudgel's shaft, and have "Mercy" engraved on the other. You have given me an excellent idea for a house rule for Paladin characters in all my upcoming campaigns. Paladin characters must use non-lethal means to stop possessed or controlled characters whenever possible. Many thanks, Beernorg.
John Napier 698 wrote: ryric wrote: What I see in this scenario is that the GM has this idea for a Highlander style plotline involving the black blades, and he's punishing you for interfering with his cool story. There will almost certainly be more situations down the line where the magus has to fight a "good guy" because that's how the Highlander plot goes. So long to campaign originality. Highlander? Seriously? There are quite a few fantasy novels which were written many years ago from which to "rip" a plot from. To take a second or third rate movie from the '80s and get an "enjoyable" campaign from it displays a distressing lack of imagination that the best GM's have in abundance.
facepalms, then sadly shakes head While I agree that involuntary Highlander is pretty lame, it's possible it's just one minor subplot that the GM has thrown in. We don't know the specifics of the world, and it certainly sounds from the OPs latter descriptions like there's been more going on than just a Highlander ripoff.
Though even in Highlander, some of the immortals were on relatively good terms and would talk with each other, rather than just trying to murder each other every chance they got (e.g. Connor and Kastagir).
Also, it wasn't their swords making them fight each other. (—_—)
Duncan has many uhh...close relationships...with a number of female immortals, and he is not using the dragonhead katana :).
There is most certainly UP-SIDES to being an immortal...
(admittedly, the show, not the movies)
Sweet, enjoy that one John!
Pathfinder Core Rulebook page 142 under Martial Weapons, Light Melee Weapons: Sap, dmg 1d6, type bludgeoning, special nonlethal.
Also, for an additional 8,000 Gp, one could get a +1 Merciful Sap which would do an additional 1d6+1 non-lethal damage, making subduals that much quicker.
Looks like I need to pick up a sap and retrain a feat to get Golden Legion's Staying Blade.
Madokar Valortouched wrote: Looks like I need to pick up a sap and retrain a feat to get Golden Legion's Staying Blade. That is, if your GM is willing to allow you to atone. As a penance, suggest that your Paladin spend an entire year and a day using a sap and dealing non-lethal damage. If after subduing your opponents, the rest of the party finishes them off, have your Paladin publicly accuse them of Murder. And, as such, no longer fit companions. Then he leaves, making room for perhaps the Mercenary character I mentioned earlier.
This thread has slowed down. I hope all of our advice helps you.
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Yeah, seriously, good luck Madokar!
as a side note...if I were GMing for this paladin, I would give bonus XP, not a fall...you and your character deserve better.
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GM_Beernorg wrote: Yeah, seriously, good luck Madokar!
as a side note...if I were GMing for this paladin, I would give bonus XP, not a fall...you and your character deserve better.
I second that. Then again, as a competent GM, I would not have engineered such a plotline to begin with.
Does forcing a paladin to fall qualify as an Evil Act and Violation of the GM Code?
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Umbral Reaver wrote: Does forcing a paladin to fall qualify as an Evil Act and Violation of the GM Code? Yes, it does. Furthermore, it displays "juvenile" behavior on the part of the GM. How old is he?
Madokar Valortouched wrote: Looks like I need to pick up a sap and retrain a feat to get Golden Legion's Staying Blade. You may not need to retrain a feat. Pick up a quarterstaff and do some training with that. You can also spend 8,000 to get a +1 Merciful quarterstaff. Quarterstaves can be very effective, just watch the most recent Star Wars: Rogue One trailer for an example.
On a related note, I suggest taking a Vow of Non-lethal Violence, similar to the GURPS disadvantage.
GM_Beernorg wrote: Duncan has many uhh...close relationships...with a number of female immortals, and he is not using the dragonhead katana :).
There is most certainly UP-SIDES to being an immortal...
(admittedly, the show, not the movies)
Sweet, enjoy that one John!
By the way, I just checked the smite class ability. It doesn't specify that it cannot modified by feats. However, I doubt that this GM has the ability to adjudicate even this.
OOH!!! +1 Merciful Quarterstaff + Power Attack + Smite Evil on a confirmed Crit! Wow, mindboggling!
John Napier 698 wrote: Umbral Reaver wrote: Does forcing a paladin to fall qualify as an Evil Act and Violation of the GM Code? Yes, it does. Furthermore, it displays "juvenile" behavior on the part of the GM. How old is he? He's 37. I'm 28.
Madokar Valortouched wrote: John Napier 698 wrote: Umbral Reaver wrote: Does forcing a paladin to fall qualify as an Evil Act and Violation of the GM Code? Yes, it does. Furthermore, it displays "juvenile" behavior on the part of the GM. How old is he? He's 37. I'm 28. Well, there's physical age and then there's mental. I still suggest that he has some mental immaturity.
John Napier 698 wrote: Madokar Valortouched wrote: John Napier 698 wrote: Umbral Reaver wrote: Does forcing a paladin to fall qualify as an Evil Act and Violation of the GM Code? Yes, it does. Furthermore, it displays "juvenile" behavior on the part of the GM. How old is he? He's 37. I'm 28. Well, there's physical age and then there's mental. I still suggest that he has some mental immaturity. He's got a stable job, a wife and daughter he loves, a very healthy network of friends and family. This decision came out of the blue for me.
Well, anyway, I wish you the best. Good luck. When I get my play-by-post campaign set up, I will most certainly extend to you an invitation.
John Napier 698 wrote: Well, anyway, I wish you the best. Good luck. When I get my play-by-post campaign set up, I will most certainly extend you an invitation. Never done a play-by-post before. First time for everything, though.
Madokar,
Would it be OK for me to add you to my address book?
John Napier 698 wrote: Letric wrote: In all honestly, make a new toon. These things are going to keep happening.
They already agree on what a Paladin Code is, no matter what God you chose, which changes your code.
Just go Neutral toon.
Your ally starts killing himself against a dragon? Sit and watch.
If asked why you didn't help, you simple reply: I have no quarrel with that enemy, and my party member engaged him for no reason. I shall not deal in nonsense.
You've been playing for a year. Do check of your gaming sessions. Were these things happening already and you just didn't notice because they didn't directly affected your character?
Hi, again. Freshly returned from work. I've been reading the posts that have accumulated while I was away. To summarize my current understanding of the situation:
1) The Paladin was punished for not placing party loyalty before the Paladin Code as written and the tenet of his faith.
and 2) The party expected him to help kill a possessed creature.
Therefore, it seems to me that the party didn't really want a Paladin, they wanted a Mercenary. So, give them one. Have the fallen Paladin fall on his sword, then roll up a Lawful Neutral ( with Evil tendencies ) Fighter. Then have that fighter negotiate a contract, in writing, with the party. Anything outside the contract will have to be negotiated beforehand, or be paid an arbitrarily decided "service fee."
Oh, and the party will have to pay him, monthly. You would need a crazy ego to think that would work.
The party would jut refuse the mercenary and OP would have to roll up another characer or stop playing.
John Napier 698 wrote: Madokar,
Would it be OK for me to add you to my address book?
This is my first major thread here and my attempts at posting. Is an address book a feature of this site, or are you asking for my physical, real-world address?
It's a virtual address book to permit private messages. Also, go to your "My Account" page and make sure that the box "Allow Private Messages" ( or something of similar wording ) is checked.
John Napier 698 wrote: It's a virtual address book to permit private messages. Also, go to your "My Account" page and make sure that the box "Allow Private Messages" ( or something of similar wording ) is checked. Sure. Go ahead. And I'll double-check to see if I allowed private messages. Pretty sure I did, but just to be sure...
johnlocke90 wrote: John Napier 698 wrote: Letric wrote: In all honestly, make a new toon. These things are going to keep happening.
They already agree on what a Paladin Code is, no matter what God you chose, which changes your code.
Just go Neutral toon.
Your ally starts killing himself against a dragon? Sit and watch.
If asked why you didn't help, you simple reply: I have no quarrel with that enemy, and my party member engaged him for no reason. I shall not deal in nonsense.
You've been playing for a year. Do check of your gaming sessions. Were these things happening already and you just didn't notice because they didn't directly affected your character?
Hi, again. Freshly returned from work. I've been reading the posts that have accumulated while I was away. To summarize my current understanding of the situation:
1) The Paladin was punished for not placing party loyalty before the Paladin Code as written and the tenet of his faith.
and 2) The party expected him to help kill a possessed creature.
Therefore, it seems to me that the party didn't really want a Paladin, they wanted a Mercenary. So, give them one. Have the fallen Paladin fall on his sword, then roll up a Lawful Neutral ( with Evil tendencies ) Fighter. Then have that fighter negotiate a contract, in writing, with the party. Anything outside the contract will have to be negotiated beforehand, or be paid an arbitrarily decided "service fee."
Oh, and the party will have to pay him, monthly. You would need a crazy ego to think that would work.
The party would jut refuse the mercenary and OP would have to roll up another characer or stop playing. Possibly. It could also Highlight to the GM and the rest of the party just how far this has gotten out of hand. Sometimes it takes strong action like this to make others see the errors of their ways.
Madokar Valortouched wrote: John Napier 698 wrote: It's a virtual address book to permit private messages. Also, go to your "My Account" page and make sure that the box "Allow Private Messages" ( or something of similar wording ) is checked. Sure. Go ahead. And I'll double-check to see if I allowed private messages. Pretty sure I did, but just to be sure... Done, and done. When I'm ready, I'll PM you an invite. You can do likewise for my account, just to keep the DM - player line of communication open. Also, when I'm ready, You'll start at level 1, just like everyone else.
Anyway, I'm about to get ready for work. Have a good day, everyone, and I'll see you on the flip side. Did I just say that? God, but I sound old.
Madokar Valortouched wrote: Looks like I need to pick up a sap and retrain a feat to get Golden Legion's Staying Blade. Personally, I hope your GM lets you retrain for no GP or time cost, just due to the trauma of falling and returning to your goddess.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Just to ask, since GM is only a few years younger than me: is his a long-standing insular group, or do they RP with other people a lot, too?
I learned most of my maturity as a GM running free form RP plot lines in the (now unfortunately closed) MMORPG City of Heroes (Union 4eva!), because it got me out of the echo chamber which was my own play group. Learned SO much, and I'm a way better GM for it.
Chemlak wrote: Just to ask, since GM is only a few years younger than me: is his a long-standing insular group, or do they RP with other people a lot, too?
I learned most of my maturity as a GM running free form RP plot lines in the (now unfortunately closed) MMORPG City of Heroes (Union 4eva!), because it got me out of the echo chamber which was my own play group. Learned SO much, and I'm a way better GM for it.
Oh, now I'm sad again... RIP CoH, you were fun while you lasted.
Chemlak wrote: Just to ask, since GM is only a few years younger than me: is his a long-standing insular group, or do they RP with other people a lot, too?
I learned most of my maturity as a GM running free form RP plot lines in the (now unfortunately closed) MMORPG City of Heroes (Union 4eva!), because it got me out of the echo chamber which was my own play group. Learned SO much, and I'm a way better GM for it.
They got me off of Facebook. The GM posted a notice on the local PFS page to see if there were any players interested in a homebrew campaign. I was, and I got the spot. On top of which, we meet up a couple of blocks away from where I live.
They've been trying to add more players to the group, but no luck. As it stands, we have three players and one GM. As a result, we started all playing a secondary NPC with class levels just so we could have six members in the party. The general consensus is that if we do get more players, we will retire our secondary NPCs so that the new players can join the party.
All of us have tried recruiting players into the group, but most of the people we've approached can't find the time to commit to a Pathfinder session.
Madokar Valortouched wrote: Chemlak wrote: Just to ask, since GM is only a few years younger than me: is his a long-standing insular group, or do they RP with other people a lot, too?
I learned most of my maturity as a GM running free form RP plot lines in the (now unfortunately closed) MMORPG City of Heroes (Union 4eva!), because it got me out of the echo chamber which was my own play group. Learned SO much, and I'm a way better GM for it.
They got me off of Facebook. The GM posted a notice on the local PFS page to see if there were any players interested in a homebrew campaign. I was, and I got the spot. On top of which, we meet up a couple of blocks away from where I live.
They've been trying to add more players to the group, but no luck. As it stands, we have three players and one GM. As a result, we started all playing a secondary NPC with class levels just so we could have six members in the party. The general consensus is that if we do get more players, we will retire our secondary NPCs so that the new players can join the party.
All of us have tried recruiting players into the group, but most of the people we've approached can't find the time to commit to a Pathfinder session. with so few players if you left they would be hosed i hope they realise that
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Just one last huzzah before this thread goes dead. I'm looking up the interpretations for alignment in the game, and I'm going to try to get a dialogue going before we sit down and play at the start of our next session on Monday.
Because it feels like I'm the only one who holds "altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings" to heart right now.
Madokar Valortouched wrote: Just one last huzzah before this thread goes dead. I'm looking up the interpretations for alignment in the game, and I'm going to try to get a dialogue going before we sit down and play at the start of our next session on Monday.
Because it feels like I'm the only one who holds "altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings" to heart right now.
Definitely a good idea to make sure a whole group is on the same page about things. The problem with alignments is that they are very difficult to put into definitive words.
Madokar Valortouched wrote: Just one last huzzah before this thread goes dead. I'm looking up the interpretations for alignment in the game, and I'm going to try to get a dialogue going before we sit down and play at the start of our next session on Monday.
Because it feels like I'm the only one who holds "altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings" to heart right now.
Check this out. It's not official, but it's a nice explanation of alignments, and it's quite descriptive.
Alignments, there are even quotes from books and Gary Gygax
Letric wrote: Madokar Valortouched wrote: Just one last huzzah before this thread goes dead. I'm looking up the interpretations for alignment in the game, and I'm going to try to get a dialogue going before we sit down and play at the start of our next session on Monday.
Because it feels like I'm the only one who holds "altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings" to heart right now.
Check this out. It's not official, but it's a nice explanation of alignments, and it's quite descriptive.
Alignments, there are even quotes from books and Gary Gygax Interesting read.
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Hi all, I know the thread has kind of died off but I feel I should offer some extra insights into the scenario.
I play the Black Blade Magus in question.
I have previously failed an ego check against the blade, 5 or 6 levels ago, and was compelled, by the intelligent weapon, to destroy another Black Blade. Yes, as was surmised, the story playing out with regard to this is a "highlander" scenario. At that time (5/6 levels ago) my eyes did not turn black. However I did kill the wielder in question, after offering the chance to yield before the fight started in earnest. The "black blade" was a halberd used by a fighter.
More recently, in fact the session in question, I did not fail a standard ego check. I rolled a 15 will save, which exceeded the 13 required. However, the GM saw fit to overrule that, in service to his story. I did not complain, I went with it, and engaged the dragon alone. Eyes black, not reasonable for BOTH contenders.
What I did not read in the description was that the dragon did initiate combat. After warning us not to open the door, which we ignored, the dragon used it's breath weapon on the party. All before the black blade had caused an issue. It was not a non-lethal warning breath weapon. The dragon was playing for keeps. The reason we ignored the warning? Because our Paladin was subject to a Geas spell to clear the temple complex. Why was he geased? He was being summarily punished in trumped up charges by the local city.
Other important notes here, with regard to the Paladin and the surprise of losing his class features, it was not without warning. On our arrival to the city, he was robbed by child pickpockets and punched one, lethally, and was warned by Iomedae, in his dreams that this was not okay. Further to this, we engaged in a fight with cultists of a dragon-like deity figure and he was coup de gracing sleeping or unconscious "bad guys" while there were still mobile and active foes to pay attention to. Another nocturnal visit from Iomedae to caution against this behaviour. (These dreams did take place between the player and the GM)
Back to the fight in question: The Magus (me) had been engaged with the dragon for 2 or 3 rounds, doing about 50 HP to the dragon. The Shaman, seeing I was not in control of my actions struck me with a spell that dazed me for 9 or so rounds. I was no longer making threatening motions, being dazed, and the Paladin saw it as his best option to continue to strike a target that was no longer threatening anything. The Silver Dragon on the other hand, continued it's assault on the Magus, with the assistance of the Paladin. The dragon also used a breath weapon on the whole party at one point during the fight with the Magus. Given this situation, I disagree with his contention that this action were the best of a bad lot. I do not think it bears scrutiny. The continued assault of the dragon after his foe was dazed, partnered with the paladin's continued attacks to subdue his own ally(dazed) parallels quite closely the previous warnings provided by the GM. Attacking unworthy/helpless foes is not OK.
Having said that, there seems to be a subplot ongoing where we have been given "gifts" that have changed us over the last 3 levels. In my case, I received pluses to base stats, damage reduction and elemental resistances as well as beginning to "fray at the edges" like I was turning ethereal slowly over time. This appears to be tied to my Black Blade intelligence being suborned by... something. The Paladin has been slowly transmuting into a creature of infernal or abyssal origin and the Shaman has been taking on undead-like qualities. I would not be surprised if the entire situation is tied to a story plot or long-game device that the GM has been working on for close to a year. I see no mention of the "gifts" the paladin has received in his description of the situation but Regen 5 for being a nice guy generally doesn't happen. Bills come due.
I'm looking at this situation as a "falls to rise" scenario and I am willing to let the GM see it through in service of the larger story. No GM no story, no story, no game. No game, sad me. For the record, I have played exactly 2 sessions more than Madokar with this group, though I have been a co-worker of the GM for 4 years now.
Edit: Spelling
How do you "lethally" punch a pickpocket? With gauntlets?
Ah, so the OP lied to us? Interesting.
It would not have been a Black Blade if it was a Fighter, by the way, as that is a class feature of the Bladebound archetype for Magi. It would have been a normal intelligent magic weapon.
The GM overruling you making your save is a dick move.
Bill Dunn wrote: How do you "lethally" punch a pickpocket? With gauntlets? Yes. Gauntlets cause your unarmed strike to deal lethal damage.
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Bloodrealm wrote: Ah, so the OP lied to us? Interesting.
It would not have been a Black Blade if it was a Fighter, by the way, as that is a class feature of the Bladebound archetype for Magi. It would have been a normal intelligent magic weapon.
The GM overruling you making your save is a dick move.
Agreed. The weapon in question would nominally be a simple intelligent weapon, but the GM's vision was that Black Blades could be any weapon, in anyone's hands. A loose interpretation, agreed. However, it provided a "purpose" and I'm not going to say anything about that. My blade had a mission, I was helping it accomplish that when it aligned with party goals.
As for lying, that is a serious charge to level. I don't believe he lied. I just didn't feel all the information that led to this was available. Madokar is a good guy, and I don't think he would mislead with an eye to make himself look better.
King Chicken wrote: Holy stuff Ok, that changes quite a lot. I'm not sure on the coup de grace enemies. I have done it with my Neutral Good Wizard, well, he didn't do it, just let the party do it.
But as a Paladin I don't think this is ok, unless your code is extremist on the All Evil must die no matter what.
Hitting a child no matter what is Evil. A Lawful Good character would've fund 10 other ways to deal with that that didn't involve violence. From the Lawful side you can send it to jail or similar; from the Good side you can have it confess to a parent/guardian, let him have some gold coins and make him understand that stealing is not the answer, though he understands why the child did it and tries to help him, like paying for his studies as a militia or something.
But 2 warnings makes it completely different. It was a consistent behavior of overreaction and taking extreme measures when it wasn't necessary.
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Quote:
Other important notes here, with regard to the Paladin and the surprise of losing his class features, it was not without warning. On our arrival to the city, he was robbed by child pickpockets and punched one, lethally, and was warned by Iomedae, in his dreams that this was not okay. Further to this, we engaged in a fight with cultists of a dragon-like deity figure and he was coup de gracing sleeping or unconscious "bad guys" while there were still mobile and active foes to pay attention to. Another nocturnal visit from Iomedae to caution against this behaviour. (These dreams did take place between the player and the GM)
The punching of a pickpocket is not grounds for punishing the paladin with losing his class features, child or not. Many cultures, even ones the paladin class is envisioned from would not look askance at chopping off a hand of a thief, child or not.
Children are not "helpless" creatures when they are attempting to perform crimes. They can be be just as lethal as adults in the right circumstances -- especially if you presume that they are innocent.
Coup-de-gracing sleeping or unconscious bad guys, if the party is readily handling the rest is a good allocation of resources, especially if he is a healer type paladin. Those sleeping or "unconscious" bad guys could easily become a threat at a moment's notice.
None of these should have caused his deity to do anything. Lawful good does not mean "nice", paladin or otherwise.
Quote:
Attacking unworthy/helpless foes is not OK
You being dazed is not make you unworthy/helpless. It makes you dazed. Lawful Good, not lawful stupid. Him continuing to try to knock you unconscious is being smart.
This could be easily played up and the Paladin could determine that no one is a worthy foe, and consider it dishonorable to heal wounds of those caught fighting unworthy foes.
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Madokar Valortouched wrote: Apparently, the GM viewed spilling the blood of an ally as an evil act and betrayal of the paladin code. I was just wondering if it's that extreme. I'm sure that I'm not the first to tell you that the answer to that varies from GM to GM.
More importantly, this is one of those crucial areas where the players and the GM should be on the same page from the start. When someone in one of my games picks up a paladin, monk, cleric, druid or any other class that can fall, I make darned sure to have that conversation with them—either immediately, or ASAP after they make a questionable move. If they make a blatantly evil move and I've skipped this step, I would lean towards, "you sense that you must atone without delay for what you have done" rather than "you fall".
Anything else would be a "HA-HA! GOTCHA!" moment...which is straight out of the playbook of How To Not Have Fun With Your Friends(TM).
Conversations about what everyone expects also help with not being an outsider anymore. Since outsiders do get screwed over more frequently, even with good GMs, this is a worthwhile goal in itself.
I normally ask a player, "are you sure you want to do that?" (or something equivalent) when their *character* should know that what they intend is a bad idea. I wish there was a Common Sense trait or something in Pathfinder, so that a player who desired it (particularly one new to PF or to a group) could be *entitled* to similar warnings. Unfortunately, there's not.
The main thing, though, is one that I touched on before:
What is going to be fun for everyone? There are many ways to go with that; some of the advice I have is for your GM and some for you. If your GM is willing to back up a bit, then maybe when you go and receive the atonement spell (presumably the first step and possibly the only one to getting your powers back), your deity could appear in a vision to tell you that an overzealous celestial bureaucrat cut off your powers without telling the deity, and will be reprimanded. If your GM sticks to his guns, you could explore in-character whether you are following the correct deity or if perhaps your "bros before foes" god is not up to *your* standards! In that case, you might seek atonement from a cleric of a *new* patron more in line with your personal code of honor.
In any case, it would probably behoove you (if you continue to play with this group) to get your code of conduct down on paper along with a detailed idea of what precisely does and does not constitute "evil".
Good luck and have fun!
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Gifts from who or what? Are these gifts fiendish in origin? Was the party made aware of the nature of the gift's origin? Knowingly accepting a gift that is fiendish in origin would make any Paladin fall the moment the gift was accepted. It sounds like someone is trying to subvert the party.
And, there is a mechanism within the game for common sense. It's called a wisdom check, but the GM must call for it from the PC in question.
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King Chicken wrote:
What I did not read in the description was that the dragon did initiate combat. After warning us not to open the door, which we ignored, the dragon used it's breath weapon on the party. All before the black blade had caused an issue. It was not a non-lethal warning breath weapon. The dragon was playing for keeps. The reason we ignored the warning? Because our Paladin was subject to a Geas spell to clear the temple complex. Why was he geased? He was being summarily punished in trumped up charges by the local city.
It is a temple of Sarenrae, right?
And you where warned by its guardian to stay away?
You were aware beforehand that there was a vampire in it and tried to reason with said guardian or simply refused to listen to it?
If the temple is still consecrated and the vampire live in it, that is a major sign that maybe he isn't evil. If the temple is desecrated that is a major argument to convince the (supposedly) lawful good guardian to let you pass. You tested and tried that?
From my point of view a temple guardian has all the right to use deadly force to stop trespassers that seem bent on robbing and desecrating the temple. And a supposedly good group has very few reasons to think that forcibly entering said temple is a good action.
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Quintain wrote: The punching of a pickpocket is not grounds for punishing the paladin with losing his class features, child or not. Many cultures, even ones the paladin class is envisioned from would not look askance at chopping off a hand of a thief, child or not. And there's many cultures where slavery is perfectly acceptable to most of the populace. And something that may have originally inspired the Paladin class being okay with tht way of dealing with thieves is completely irrelevant to the actual Paladin class itself.
Punching a pickpocket to get your stuff back? Meh.
Chopping a hand off? F*!! no.
King Chicken wrote: Hi all, I know the thread has kind of died off but I feel I should offer some extra insights into the scenario.
I play the Black Blade Magus in question.
I have previously failed an ego check against the blade, 5 or 6 levels ago, and was compelled, by the intelligent weapon, to destroy another Black Blade. Yes, as was surmised, the story playing out with regard to this is a "highlander" scenario. At that time (5/6 levels ago) my eyes did not turn black. However I did kill the wielder in question, after offering the chance to yield before the fight started in earnest. The "black blade" was a halberd used by a fighter.
More recently, in fact the session in question, I did not fail a standard ego check. I rolled a 15 will save, which exceeded the 13 required. However, the GM saw fit to overrule that, in service to his story. I did not complain, I went with it, and engaged the dragon alone. Eyes black, not reasonable for BOTH contenders.
What I did not read in the description was that the dragon did initiate combat. After warning us not to open the door, which we ignored, the dragon used it's breath weapon on the party. All before the black blade had caused an issue. It was not a non-lethal warning breath weapon. The dragon was playing for keeps. The reason we ignored the warning? Because our Paladin was subject to a Geas spell to clear the temple complex. Why was he geased? He was being summarily punished in trumped up charges by the local city.
Other important notes here, with regard to the Paladin and the surprise of losing his class features, it was not without warning. On our arrival to the city, he was robbed by child pickpockets and punched one, lethally, and was warned by Iomedae, in his dreams that this was not okay. Further to this, we engaged in a fight with cultists of a dragon-like deity figure and he was coup de gracing sleeping or unconscious "bad guys" while there were still mobile and active foes to pay attention to. Another nocturnal visit from Iomedae to...
King Chicken is right many aspects. However, it isn't the whole story. While my paladin DID punch a pickpocket, said pickpocket was part of a swarm of urchins that stole the MacGuffin off of my paladin's character. A set of magical marbles that contain the knowledge to seal and open planar gates to HELL itself. While I would have laughed off the theft of sword or my Belt of Giant Strength, those "Memories" as we call them have the potential to doom the entire material plane.
These kids stole and sold on the black market the keys to Hell. And to top it off, they sold them individually. Not all at once. Why is that bad? Because we were carrying the Memories in a magic satchel that guarded their location from Infernal forces. Now that they are out of the satchel, they are broadcasting their location to Asmodeus and his forces. The city has had to fight off Infernal assaults since then.
So my paladin lost his cool. He punched one urchin and staggered him. He was angry at himself, the pickpockets, the whole situation. After he cooled down, he was horrified he acted in such a base way. He tried to make amends, but understandably, the urchins of the city did not give him the location of the pickpocket he struck. So he's kept a lesson in his heart ever since to keep his head and heart cool so such a tragedy can never happen again.
In regards to the fight itself, I still view it as the correct course of action. While the daze effect didn't wear off during the course of the fight, there was no guarantee that it would stay that way. The context of a battlefield changes and priorities change with it. While it is true that the dragon engaged us first, there was still a chance for diplomacy if everybody had retained their faculties. We, as a party, could have refrained from killing the silver dragon or pushed her back enough she would have surrendered.
The possession threw that option out the window. And as a paladin, I have a duty to prevent my teammates from committing evil deeds. Especially if they are possessed. And the Magus was still the superior opponent. The bigger threat in the room. I felt it was my responsibility to neutralize him first before focusing on the dragon.
We're in the temple because I was falsely arrested by the temple of Abadar for being the leader of a dragon cult. They think I'm the leader due to my mutations King Chicken mentioned, as I look mildly draconic right now. This cult has been abducting citizens and turning them into bombs. It's a cult we have been working with the city guard to try and stop. We had managed to aid in the arrest of a fair number of the cultists at one point. They turned out to be members of the nobility of the city. And they bribed the paladins of Abadar to let them go.
And speaking of my apparently abyssal/infernal boons, no I did not accept any gifts or deals from a demonic or devilish source. They just happened. The party, all at the same time, started to undergo transformations into different beings. At first, I was hoping the changes were celestial in nature for me, but a word from Sarenrae confirmed that they were evil in nature. They have not changed my alignment yet, nor had they interfered with my paladin abilities before hand.
As for GM warning, he said specifically over Facebook that I fell for attacking an ally, not a defenseless opponent. Even then, if it was the final straw to cement my fall, he should have told me during the session as I continued the attack, not two days later over Facebook.
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I see. Now that I've heard both sides of the story, I still hold my previous opinions. You've been "hosed", all for the sake of a story.
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