Copper Dragon

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@Mr Jacket Potato, your wife does excellent work...I couldn't do it better (and it would take me a good long time to equal it).

Much appreciated!!!

Also, where would one find the 'template made by someone else' that you mentioned? I'd like to make a presentable-looking homebrew character or three and that could be a big time-saver. :)


Good points, both of you.


Hmm, yeah, maybe you're right.


Can I suggest just sidestepping the whole haste problem by using blessing of fervor? Because blessing of fervor doesn't seem to care about manufactured weapon/natural weapon technicalities.


Bill Dunn wrote:
The answer is right in the advanced template quick rules.

Unfortunately, that is not where the answer is located. Quick rules and rebuild rules do not always produce identical results; the section on monster advancement says as much here.

I can't find a Paizo-published reference for how nonabilities are handled, though. Clearly they (and we) are following the old 3.0/3.5 rules for them (dragonhunterq lays out those rules very clearly), but does anyone know of a place where this is explicitly stated for Pathfinder?


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Basically as you've said in your second sentence.

The fervor ability has the following text:

Fervor wrote:
As a swift action, a warpriest can expend one use of fervor to cast any one warpriest spell he has prepared with a casting time of 1 round or shorter. When cast in this way, the spell can target only the warpriest, even if it could normally affect other or multiple targets. Spells cast in this way don't require somatic components and do not provoke attacks of opportunity.

I get what you're saying, and I agree with it as far as it goes. But I just noticed a really weird technicality: not all spells are targeted. As written, it looks like Effect and Area spells would not be restricted at all since they are not targeted spells and have no Target or Targets:

Magic wrote:

Aiming a Spell

You must make choices about whom a spell is to affect or where an effect is to originate, depending on a spell's type. The next entry in a spell description defines the spell's target (or targets), its effect, or its area, as appropriate.

Target or Targets: Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects...

Effect: Some spells create or summon things rather than affecting things that are already present.

Area: Some spells affect an area.

Do I think this is the craziest of technicalities? Yes, of course. Do I think 99% GMs (including me) would close or nerf this loophole with a houserule? Yes, of course. But by RAW it looks like you could use Fervor to freely cast any Effect spell (like summon monster or spiritual weapon) or any Area spell (like the aforementioned flame strike or path of glory).

(A simple rewrite would say "...the spell must target only the warpriest", which would restrict Fervor spellcasting to targeted spells; I would probably rewrite it as "...the spell affects only the warpriest or one square the warpriest occupies, regardless of its normal range, area, effect and/or targets".)


Entryhazard wrote:
Here James Jacobs says to use the owner's level as the CR for the Animal Companion

Sweet, thanks!!!


Hmm...there actually doesn't seem to be a contradiction. All divine spellcasters must choose a special hour for their magic-preparing contact with the divine. The fact that it's reiterated in one divine class and not in the other three is kind of irrelevant; it doesn't say that they don't have to choose a time, either, so the override-by-a-more-specific-rule principle doesn't come into play.

That's how I read it, anyways.


When a warpriest uses the Fervor ability to cast Path of Glory or Greater Path of Glory, targeting (perforce) themselves only, does it subsequently expand by four squares per round as normal? Or do they effectively grant themselves (only) fast healing and nothing else happens, even on later rounds?


This feat give an aasimar's animal companion, familiar, etc., the celestial template. The celestial template says that the creature gains SR equal to its new CR+5...but animal companions and mounts and such have no CR of their own. How is its SR determined? Is it based on the character's CR (i.e. level-1)? Do they gain no SR on a technicality?


JonathonWilder wrote:
I'd recommend Spheres of Power over Words of Power any day.

Wow. I just looked this up, and it seems like a whole 'nother game to learn. Which is one of my favorite things to do! I will almost certainly be reading over the wiki in my downtime, maybe even buying a hardcopy if one's available.


Dasrak wrote:
The Words of Power system unfortunately doesn't solve the problem, because the classes hardest hit by the subsystem are the tier 3 casters with 6-level progressions. The tier 1 prepared casters take a nerf, but there are enough good options that they'll still be solid tier 2 characters. The spontaneous casters actually do well under this system and don't drop tier at all (arguably being better than their prepared counterparts). The 6-level casters, though, get atrocious word lists and just suffer horribly. For this reason I would never enforce an all Words of Power game.

I don't think I would ever push an all-Words of Power game, either—for exactly this reason. I'm not a fan of playing a 6-level caster, but people who are shouldn't be punished for it.

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
The problem is though that in the hands of system optimising munchkins, the Word of Power system is a weapon of campaign destruction.

Potentially, yes. But so are many other parts of the rules, including Core T1 classes. A lot of system-optimizing munchkins grow up to be fun-optimizing munchkins—the kind that set out to make the game great for the other players. I know that I did! With people like that a gentleman's agreement to not wreck the game relatively easy to arrange.


I have had a curious thought BB-ing around in my skull for a while, and I decided to share it. Hopefully this is the right part of the boards?

I am a bit of a fan or JaronK's tier system and its derivatives (like Power's PF update of said system). You don't have to be, but I am.

I was considering the Words of Power system from Ultimate Magic, and it looks like a lot of the game-breaking options are flat-out missing. A few are there, maybe, but not a lot of them.

So I was wondering, would a WoP-only cleric, druid, witch, or wizard drop to tier 2 or even high tier 3? While there are some uniquely-effective Words of Power, the overall quantity, versatility, and game-breakingness seems significantly lower when compared to conventional spellcasting.

If this one change does drop these classes by a tier or two, it could be a great option for games where one character has their heart set on a Tier One class, but the GM and/or players really don't want the world to get broken all the time—especially since it is compatible with literally every archetype of these four classes.

Thoughts?


Have you considered either working with your GM to design a new deity, or going deity-less?

Gods are not required for clerics, after all.


avr wrote:
Oops. Frightful Aspect was the 8th level spell I meant.

Wow, nice. No saves at all, huh? I'll have to point this one out to our shadow wizard, too. :D


avr wrote:
If you were 16th level you could get Overwhelming Presence which is a buff that could save your life. Enemies not immune to fear get one attack against you then they're frightened. Consider whether you'd rather just get a pair of winged boots or something, or whether you just must have angel wings.

According to the prd, Overwhelming Presence is cleric 9 / inquisitor 6, so I could rock that at 11th if I pull from inquisitor, or 17th if cleric. It also doesn't work quite as you describe...did you mean a different spell?

avr wrote:
Another druid spell to remeber is control winds. It's shockingly effective.

I will definitely keep that in mind...maybe even memorized! ;)

avr wrote:
Remember you can only steal from one divine spell list, not all divine spell lists. The cleric list has the most extensive amount of spells to pick from due to being a full caster and in PF from the start: blessing of fervor, greater restoration, heroes feast, eaglesoul etc.

<sound of squealing brakes!>

O.O

Oops, I missed that. That really cuts into one of the main reasons for the template, upping my spellgrabbing from 6 to 8. Hrm. I do still like the nonmagical flight and the across-the-board stat bonuses, but are they worth two levels? I'll have to consider.

Thanks!


Declindgrunt wrote:
I'm not saying you should pick a drake for your animal companion but.... you should pick a drake, since your already lvl 16 you can already fly him and it could be awsome I mean if your into that kind of thing >.>

Oops! I knew I forgot something. I'm going with the Fire domain (actually the Ash subdomain) for my Nature Bond. Because fireball. Also disintegrate. But, cool suggestion!


I am currently making a character for a 16th-level campaign with (as of now) three other players. The other characters are a bard who spreads tales of our deeds (especially hers) far and wide, and is hugely famous and adored; a magus who is a king but constantly finds excuses to ditch the kingdom in search of adventure; and a shadowy wizard who is the master of an assassins' guild.

As you can see, there is both a divine-caster-shaped gap and a trap-neutering-skillmonkey-shaped gap in our party skillset. This is great for me because I love playing polymaths and omnimaths, but I also don't want to step on anyone's toes.

I have settled on a 14th-level half-celestial samsaran druid with the nature fang archetype. I lose wild shape and a bunch of middle-to-low importance class features, but I gain a ton of Slayer abilities. (Obviously my first two slayer talents will be trapfinding and trap spotter.)

Since I lack wild shape, and since I consider melee inevitable (though since I have wings it might not be), I am building a low- to no-summoning caster with a side of finesse melee.

I am looking for build suggestions: feats to take; skills to 1-rank or to max; druid spells to keep my eye on; and adept, cleric, inquisitor, paladin, ranger, and shaman spells to steal with my Mystic Past Life, among other things.

Thanks in advance!


If you're in there tanking the giant, your party should be backing you up with stuff like hold person (which actually works on giants in PF, since they're humanoids now), the feat Divine Interference, and other buffs and debuffs. After all, every point of damage that you don't take is one point that no one has to worry about fixing...and your combat capability falls off a cliff if your eidolon gets pounded off of you, right? That's everyone's problem, not just yours. If your party isn't thinking like a team, they're begging for TPK. :/


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I am not clear from your original post. Is this a "kill them once" contest, sort of like a Mythic caster version of counting coup?

Or is it a "kill them forever"?

Either way, you have clerics and that means if you're smart, you win.

Here's the few potentially-unique pieces of advice that I have:

1.) Abuse sending. If possible, create an unlimited-use magic item of it (base cost 25,200 gp for a worn item or twice that for one that takes no item space) and have your lesser minions work in shifts to send them a pointless message of 25 words or less every ten minutes, 95% successfully unless they're on the same plane (then 100%). Alternating between them means hitting each of them every twenty minutes. Sleep? There is no sleep. There is only The Word. Perhaps send your graveknight's name. Perhaps say "fish". It matters naught.

2.) When you're ready to go after them, use miracle to locate one of them for a quarter-ton of gold. Send in whatever you choose to murder them in the face for the first time. How many solars can your clerics gate in per day, anyways? Then rinse and repeat with the other mage, if they were separate.

Wish I had a 3.), but nothing's coming to mind. Just remember the rules don't apply to miracle, so have each cleric keep it and a sack of powdered diamond on tap to deal with their surprises if and when it comes to a face-to-face showdown.

Oh, I do have a 3.)!
3.) If your clerics can be of other deities—and really, polytheistic retinues have a long and proud history—make sure that at least one has the Trickery domain: That one will be able to cast a time stop of his own. Also consider having one of them be a samsaran, so that the druid and shaman lists can be picked over for irresistible 8th- and 9th-level spells. Look into maybe having one be a wordcaster, too, or have the Experimental Spellcaster feat a couple of times.

And:
4.) Have one or two tough, greater teleport-capable angels or archons on hand to scoop up your sword and boogie if you should happen to fall. (Hopefully it weighs less than 50 pounds?)

Good luck with the PvP!


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Madokar Valortouched wrote:
Apparently, the GM viewed spilling the blood of an ally as an evil act and betrayal of the paladin code. I was just wondering if it's that extreme.

I'm sure that I'm not the first to tell you that the answer to that varies from GM to GM.

More importantly, this is one of those crucial areas where the players and the GM should be on the same page from the start. When someone in one of my games picks up a paladin, monk, cleric, druid or any other class that can fall, I make darned sure to have that conversation with them—either immediately, or ASAP after they make a questionable move. If they make a blatantly evil move and I've skipped this step, I would lean towards, "you sense that you must atone without delay for what you have done" rather than "you fall".

Anything else would be a "HA-HA! GOTCHA!" moment...which is straight out of the playbook of How To Not Have Fun With Your Friends(TM).

Conversations about what everyone expects also help with not being an outsider anymore. Since outsiders do get screwed over more frequently, even with good GMs, this is a worthwhile goal in itself.

I normally ask a player, "are you sure you want to do that?" (or something equivalent) when their *character* should know that what they intend is a bad idea. I wish there was a Common Sense trait or something in Pathfinder, so that a player who desired it (particularly one new to PF or to a group) could be *entitled* to similar warnings. Unfortunately, there's not.

The main thing, though, is one that I touched on before:
What is going to be fun for everyone? There are many ways to go with that; some of the advice I have is for your GM and some for you. If your GM is willing to back up a bit, then maybe when you go and receive the atonement spell (presumably the first step and possibly the only one to getting your powers back), your deity could appear in a vision to tell you that an overzealous celestial bureaucrat cut off your powers without telling the deity, and will be reprimanded. If your GM sticks to his guns, you could explore in-character whether you are following the correct deity or if perhaps your "bros before foes" god is not up to *your* standards! In that case, you might seek atonement from a cleric of a *new* patron more in line with your personal code of honor.

In any case, it would probably behoove you (if you continue to play with this group) to get your code of conduct down on paper along with a detailed idea of what precisely does and does not constitute "evil".

Good luck and have fun!