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Can you essentially slow an action down? If something is a swift action, can you use a move action to do it instead?
For example, if you have two swift actions you want to perform, can you do one as a move action?
To my knowledge no unless it is a action type you have learned to speed up.
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Swift/immediate actions have their own action economy, and standard/move actions have theirs, and never the twain shall meet.
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There are some magic items to help.
quick runner's shirt
Edit: I always have trouble finding this one
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Some GMs will allow it so long as the one swift / immediate action per round limit is still observed.
So, say you have the 'nauseated' condition and thus can only take a move action. It would be reasonable to allow you to swap that move action for a single swift or immediate action.
Two or more swift / immediate actions in a turn can only be done with a few specific items and abilities.
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Some GMs will allow it so long as the one swift / immediate action per round limit is still observed.
So, say you have the 'nauseated' condition and thus can only take a move action. It would be reasonable to allow you to swap that move action for a single swift or immediate action.
Two or more swift / immediate actions in a turn can only be done with a few specific items and abilities.
I'm totally in agreement on not allowing more than a single swift/immediate action per turn; many of them are more powerful than move actions. It's no mistake that you can't trade them.
However, that nauseated FAQ raised some weird concerns, and I'd consider allowing someone to use their move action to do something that would normally take a swift or even free action (like dropping prone, dropping weapons etc.)
Some GMs will allow it so long as the one swift / immediate action per round limit is still observed.
So, say you have the 'nauseated' condition and thus can only take a move action. It would be reasonable to allow you to swap that move action for a single swift or immediate action.
Two or more swift / immediate actions in a turn can only be done with a few specific items and abilities.
Which is directly against the FAQ ruling on nauseated.
Edited in quote.
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Which is directly against the FAQ ruling on nauseated.
The nauseated FAQ says that you only get one move action... the normal rule that free and swift actions are retained does not apply;
"Restricted Activity: In some situations, you may be unable to take a full round's worth of actions. In such cases, you are restricted to taking only a single standard action or a single move action (plus free and swift actions as normal)."
However, that does NOT say that you can't switch actions. You get only a Move rather than a Move, Swift, and Free actions as the rules stated prior to the FAQ... but you COULD still swap that Move action for some other kind.
A paladin can use mercy to cure the nauseated condition on themselves with a swift action... ergo, they are somehow able to take a swift action while nauseated. Presumably, they do so by swapping out their move action.
Which is directly against the FAQ ruling on nauseated.The nauseated FAQ says that you only get one move action... the normal rule that free and swift actions are retained does not apply;
"Restricted Activity: In some situations, you may be unable to take a full round's worth of actions. In such cases, you are restricted to taking only a single standard action or a single move action (plus free and swift actions as normal)."
However, that does NOT say that you can't switch actions. You get only a Move rather than a Move, Swift, and Free actions as the rules stated prior to the FAQ... but you COULD still swap that Move action for some other kind.
A paladin can use mercy to cure the nauseated condition on themselves with a swift action... ergo, they are somehow able to take a swift action while nauseated. Presumably, they do so by swapping out their move action.
No, they can't. Read that FAQ again:
The nauseated condition really means what it says. You are limited to one move action per round, and not any other actions. Compare to the staggered condition, which says “A staggered creature may take a single move action or standard action each round (but not both, nor can he take full-round actions). A staggered creature can still take free, swift, and immediate actions.”
You can't use a Swift Action to use Lay On Hands on yourself and remove the Nauseated condition via Mercies, and you certainly can't spend a Move Action to do a Swift Action, otherwise items like Corset of Delicate Moves or Quick Runner's Shirt would be useless and do nothing more than what you can already do. This makes the intent quite clear; you can't substitute actions unless the rules say you can (in the case of using a Standard Action to perform a Move Action).
And plus, there are technically no items that let you take a Swift Action as a Move Action. The Corset of Delicate Moves lets you spend a Move Action to be able to perform a second Swift Action, as evidenced by the wording here:
Once per day as a move action, the wearer can take an additional swift action. This swift action can’t be used to cast a spell or spell-like ability.
First, it says the Move Action lets you perform an additional Swift Action (and doesn't say you perform a Swift Action as a Move Action as everyone assumes it does), which you are precluded from using via the Nauseated condition. Second, it then proceeds to call that excess activity as a Swift Action, which means you would still have to spend a Swift Action to perform the activity in question, which you are again, still precluded from using via the Nauseated condition.
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You can't use a Swift Action to use Lay On Hands on yourself and remove the Nauseated condition via Mercies,
So Paladins have an ability that cannot be used?
and you certainly can't spend a Move Action to do a Swift Action, otherwise items like Corset of Delicate Moves or Quick Runner's Shirt would be useless and do nothing more than what you can already do.
Not so. Those items allow you to complete TWO swift actions in a turn. The scenario I described (swapping a nauseated 'move only' for a 'swift / immediate / free only') does not. That's a very useful ability.
Again, some GMs like for the game to make sense (e.g. if you have enough time to do something that takes 3 seconds then you can also do something that takes less than 3 seconds) and thus will allow a nauseated character to take any single action equal to or shorter than a move. Other GMs like to interpret the rules in as literal and one dimensional way as possible and thus hold that nauseated characters can move, but not fall down (free action). Table variation at its finest.
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You can't use a Swift Action to use Lay On Hands on yourself and remove the Nauseated condition via Mercies,So Paladins have an ability that cannot be used?
They can't use it on themselves, but they can use it on their allies. Just like the mercies for the Shaken condition and Diseases, which they're immune to.
Darksol is correct about the RAW rules.
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You can't use a Swift Action to use Lay On Hands on yourself and remove the Nauseated condition via Mercies,So Paladins have an ability that cannot be used?
No. Paladins have an ability that they cannot use on themselves, but can use on others.
Again, some GMs like for the game to make sense (e.g. if you have enough time to do something that takes 3 seconds then you can also do something that takes less than 3 seconds) and thus will allow a nauseated character to take any single action equal to or shorter than a move. Other GMs like to interpret the rules in as literal and one dimensional way as possible and thus hold that nauseated characters can move, but not fall down (free action). Table variation at its finest.
READ: Some GM's like to house rule things. Which there is nothing wrong with that, but this is the wrong forum for talking about that without acknowledging that it is indeed a house rule. Note the rules that talk about swapping your standard to a move don't say you can do so because a move takes less time than a standard - the rules just say it is allowed without an explanation.
Just because a swift action (ostensibly) takes less time than a move action does not mean they can be swapped.
Nothing in the rules defines how much time each action type takes.
We know that: "A move action allows you to move up to your speed or perform an action that takes a similar amount of time." But does that mean 1 second, 3 seconds, 5 seconds? We don't know.
And we know that: "A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action." Again how long is that exactly? But personally I think just as important is "larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action".
It is my feeling (not RAW, just as there is no RAW on the exact amount of time - but coming from the perspective of a GM that likes things to make sense) that swifts are limited because they take a specific amount of focus and concentration that prevents a character from doing it more than once a round. Its not the amount of time that is required, it is the amount of focus that matters.
Additionally, from a rules perspective it very much appears to be a balance issue.
The rules are however very clear on available actions, and what can be traded for what. Standard to move is the only swap allowed by the rules, and everything (except free) is limited to one per round (without one of the listed magic items altering things).
No the paladin has 1 ability that can't be used while nauseated. depending on mercies he might be able to remove the condition from someone else but not himself. No different than a cleric not being able to cast a spell to remove it from himself.
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No. Paladins have an ability that they cannot use on themselves, but can use on others.You can't use a Swift Action to use Lay On Hands on yourself and remove the Nauseated condition via Mercies,So Paladins have an ability that cannot be used?
It's the poor samurai who have the ability that cannot actually be used:
Determined: As a standard action, the samurai can spend one use of his resolve to remove the fatigued, shaken, or sickened condition. If the samurai is at least 8th level, he can alternatively remove the exhausted, frightened, nauseated, or staggered condition. If the condition has a duration longer than 1 hour or is permanent, this ability removes the condition for 1 hour, at which time the condition returns.
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<post too long to be quoted entirely>
While you are absolutely right that unless you are wearing a corset of delicate moves you cannot substitute a move action for a swift action, you definitely can use the corset while nauseated. "As a move action" means the action in question consumes your move action for the round, so your action which normally requires a swift action is not using a swift action, it is using a move action. This works just fine with nausea.
An example wording that would preclude use during nausea could be "as a move action, you gain the ability to take a second swift action this round." Instead, it says "as a move action, you can take a swift action."
The only substitution allowed by the rules is between immediate and swift actions, and move and standard actions.
Some swift action abilities are pretty useful, which is why they are limited to once per round.
PS: I skipped a few post so this may have already been mentioned.
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No. Paladins have an ability that they cannot use on themselves, but can use on others.You can't use a Swift Action to use Lay On Hands on yourself and remove the Nauseated condition via Mercies,So Paladins have an ability that cannot be used?
It's the poor samurai who have the ability that cannot actually be used:
** spoiler omitted **
Interesting. That should probably be FAQ'd.
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Standard to move is the only swap allowed by the rules
Well.......
"Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action and counts as your swift action for that turn."
"In a normal round, you can perform a standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action."
"Some full-round actions can be taken as standard actions, but only in situations when you are limited to performing only a standard action during your round."
"The "start full-round action" standard action lets you start undertaking a full-round action, which you can complete in the following round by using another standard action."
So you're saying all paladins have to wear corsets....hmmm
Pretty much, but I think it is an oversight, and not a deliberate thing. They could errata it to say that he can use it as a move action on himself while subject to a condition that restricts swift actions.
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<post too long to be quoted entirely>While you are absolutely right that unless you are wearing a corset of delicate moves you cannot substitute a move action for a swift action, you definitely can use the corset while nauseated. "As a move action" means the action in question consumes your move action for the round, so your action which normally requires a swift action is not using a swift action, it is using a move action. This works just fine with nausea.
An example wording that would preclude use during nausea could be "as a move action, you gain the ability to take a second swift action this round." Instead, it says "as a move action, you can take a swift action."
And that's precisely what it says. It says that "as a Move Action, the wearer can take an additional Swift Action." You're still taking a Swift Action, because it then further refers to the additional swift action as being a Swift Action. It's just you can take more than one because you spent a Move Action to do so, whereas before, the rules state you are only permitted one Swift (or Immediate) Action per round.
So no, Corset of Delicate Moves does not circumvent the ability to use a Swift Action while Nauseated. It just lets you spend a Move Action to expand the 1 Swift/Immediate Action per round rule to 2 Swift/Immediate Actions per round.
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Good thing my paladin is Tim Curry.
So a nauseated character can't Drop Prone (Free action)?
So a nauseated character can't Drop Prone (Free action)?Falling down just requires way too much 'focus'. :]
You also can't stop concentrating on a spell (free action). Nor can you continue concentrating on a spell (standard action).
You can use your Move Action to go Prone.
You don't need to stop concentration on a spell....since you can't continue concentration( a Standard Action) on a spell. So it just stops.
Not seeing an issue.
So a nauseated character can't Drop Prone (Free action)?
Based on the FAQ, that is correct.
It is the only FAQ I currently ignore as nauseated limiting characters to a move (plus swift and free if using the CRB text as is) with the additional restriction of nothing requiring concentration already prevented the important things like quickened spells, and many other swift actions - while the FAQ made for some rather absurd results (as you just noted).
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The Revised Action Economy in Pathfinder Unchained allows this.
I've been using it since the book came out, and with some tweaks it seems to be working out fantastically for both me and my players.
I am working on ironing out some potential issues, such as counterspelling being more common, which has had some metagame effects both good and bad.
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You can use your Move Action to go Prone.
I agree. You can use a Move action to complete what is normally a free / immediate / swift action.
You don't need to stop concentration on a spell....since you can't continue concentration( a Standard Action) on a spell. So it just stops.
If that's the case then why EVER bother spending an action to cease concentrating? Just spend your actions on other things and the spell will automatically end. That makes it an action cost you never need to pay. Illogical! Does not compute! 'RAW' says that you can't stop concentrating... therefore the spell must continue... even though 'RAW' also says it can't. Welcome to infinite recursion.
Not seeing an issue.
Yes, but are you seeing the HUMOR? Dammit man! It's all about the snark factor!
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So a nauseated character can't Drop Prone (Free action)?Based on the FAQ, that is correct.
It is the only FAQ I currently ignore as nauseated limiting characters to a move (plus swift and free if using the CRB text as is) with the additional restriction of nothing requiring concentration already prevented the important things like quickened spells, and many other swift actions - while the FAQ made for some rather absurd results (as you just noted).
Only in your opinion is it absurd. (Which it really isn't)
You can't (Free Action) drop prone. But you can still (Move Action) get prone. Not really that absurd.
You can use your Move Action to go Prone.I agree. You can use a Move action to complete what is normally a free / immediate / swift action.
It's not normally a Free Action to get Prone.
You can Move Action Crawl to get prone or Free Action drop yourself to the ground to get prone.
It makes sense to me to not want to throw yourself on the ground when nauseated.
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If that's the case then why EVER bother spending an action to cease concentrating? Just spend your actions on other things and the spell will automatically end. That makes it an action cost you never need to pay. Illogical! Does not compute! 'RAW' says that you can't stop concentrating... therefore the spell must continue... even though 'RAW' also says it can't. Welcome to infinite recursion.
"(D) Dismissible: If the duration line ends with "(D)," you can dismiss the spell at will. You must be within range of the spell's effect and must speak words of dismissal, which are usually a modified form of the spell's verbal component. If the spell has no verbal component, you can dismiss the effect with a gesture. Dismissing a spell is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
A spell that depends on concentration is dismissible by its very nature, and dismissing it does not take an action, since all you have to do to end the spell is to stop concentrating on your turn."
Actually dismissing a Concentration spell isn't even an action.
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You can't drop prone in the same square. Move action crawl requires you actually move. You also can't 5-foot step while nauseated then?
No rules say you can go prone as a move action. You can crawl 5 feet as a move action, which makes you prone, but that doesn't keep you in the same square.
Cease Concentration on Spell
You can stop concentrating on a spell as a free action.Drop an Item
Dropping an item in your space or into an adjacent square is a free action.Drop Prone
Dropping to a prone position in your space is a free action.
SpeakIn general, speaking is a free action that you can perform even when it isn't your turn. Speaking more than a few sentences is generally beyond the limit of a free action.
So, while nauseated, you can't stop concentrating, you can't let go of something in your hands, you can't fall to the ground, and you can't speak. I too will be ignoring this FAQ.
So, while nauseated, you can't stop concentrating, you can't let go of something in your hands, you can't fall to the ground, and you can't speak. I too will be ignoring this FAQ.
1. Can't stop concentrating.
You don't need to stop concentrating. The spell will end all on its own since you can't keep concentrating.2. Can't Drop an Item.
Yes you can. Manipulate an Item
3. Drop Prone
Yes you can. Crawling.
You're really going to saw you can't move to a prone position with a Move Action???
Really???
So i can stand up from being Prone as a Move Action but i can't go prone as a Move Action. Sure.
Only in your opinion is it absurd. (Which it really isn't)You can't (Free Action) drop prone. But you can still (Move Action) get prone. Not really that absurd.
Its absurd because it created all these weird edge cases and requires strange rules contortions and manipulations to allow you to do things that you'd normally do as a free action (and would be able to even without any real attention on your part).
You can't drop prone, but you can crawl to go prone? Which one requires more attention and effort?
You can't drop that bottle of nauseating poison you just drank from, but you can, with a little focus (something that would require at least some attention on your part), carefully set it down?
So when a condition has this restriction "...or do anything else requiring attention." and you tell me I can carefully manipulate a item in my hand to set it down is allowed, but just dropping it isn't - I will call that absurd every time. (Note, I wouldn't actually prevent a player from manipulating many items while nauseated - such as opening a door, or a chest, or pushing one of those wheeled ladders in a library, etc).
I'll reiterate again. Had the FAQ gone the other way, all the weird edge cases disappear, and that phrase "...or do anything else requiring attention." already took care of anything the GM wanted to disallow. For example, I wouldn't allow a player without a natural climb speed to climb a rock wall - as I'd rule that required attention, even though it would be a move action.
2. Ok, you can't drop 2 items (one thing in each hand).
3. No, crawling moves you 5 feet. You can't drop prone in the square you are in.
The rules don't say you can, they say you can drop prone as a free action. Or if you are crawling you are prone.
Yes, you can stand up from prone as a Move Action but not go prone as a Move Action. That is the actions allowed. That is kind of the entire point of this thread. What can you substitute.
2. Ok, you can't drop 2 items (one thing in each hand).
3. No, crawling moves you 5 feet. You can't drop prone in the square you are in.
The rules don't say you can, they say you can drop prone as a free action. Or if you are crawling you are prone.
Yes, you can stand up from prone as a Move Action but not go prone as a Move Action. That is the actions allowed. That is kind of the entire point of this thread. What can you substitute.
Okay the FAQ is absurd....
Definitely not you trying to make strange corner cases that won't come up in a game. lol
But everyone its total silly since i can't drop two things in my hands....
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Strange corner cases?
We're in combat, some effect that causes the nauseated condition affects me, it is now my turn. I want to move action 30' to get away from people since while nauseated I can't effectively fight back. But, I have the best sword in the party, so I want to free-action drop it in the square of my buddy who didn't get nauseated so that he can use it instead of me. At the end of my movement, I want to drop prone for the bonus AC I get against the ranged attacks because I'm sure that wizard wants to try to finish me off with a ray spell.
Not exactly a crazy connived corner case.
On the other hand, by allowing free actions, a Bard could continue his bardic performance despite trying to not add his lunch to the performance.
Standard to move is the only swap allowed by the rulesWell.......
"Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action and counts as your swift action for that turn."
"In a normal round, you can perform a standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action."
"Some full-round actions can be taken as standard actions, but only in situations when you are limited to performing only a standard action during your round."
"The "start full-round action" standard action lets you start undertaking a full-round action, which you can complete in the following round by using another standard action."
So I exaggerated. I still don't see swift as a move action in that list. Which only tells us all the more, if its not listed, its not allowed.
On the other hand, by allowing free actions, a Bard could continue his bardic performance despite trying to not add his lunch to the performance.
Yet a GM would be free to also rule that maintaining the bardic performance requires some attention - despite being a free action.
If the bard is over 7th level, he could move action to start performance though, restarting each round, same effect (well, he couldn't move as much).
The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.
In some situations (such as in a surprise round), you may be limited to taking only a single move action or standard action.
Do these sentences mean that in a surprise round you cannot take swift actions at all?
This again. Most swift actions are speeded up standard actions, whilst some are similar to move actions and many free actions are speeded up move actions.
Those that could be standard actions can't be done whilst nauseated. Those that are speeded up move actions can be done as a move action. The difference, the move action attracts an AoO.
For example, a player wants to drop a weapon or go prone. Yes they can do both of those as a move action and they incur an AoO when they do so.