Dwarven Fighter (Two Handed Archetype)
Str20 Dex12 Con16 Int10 Wis12 Cha5
* Stoic Negotiator (+2 bluff, diplomacy and profession merchant)
* Full Plate, Dwarven Longhammer, Dwarven Boulderhelmet
lvl 1-Fighter
* Power Attack (lvl 1 fighter feat)
* Breadth of Experience (+2 to all profession and knowledge checks, can make all untrained)
lvl 2-Sanctified Slayer
* Conversion Inquisition (Wis for Bluff, Intimidate, Diplomacy)
* Stern Gaze (+1 intimidate)
* Studied Target (+1 hit and dmg as a move action)
* lvl 0 spells (detect magic, read magic, stabilize, create water)
* lvl 1 spells (can use wand of cure light wounds without UMD check, gain expeditious retreat. This gives up 20ft of movement to gain +30ft movement for 1 minute, which is good for getting into combat. As a dwarf, this gives him 50ft movement in full plate)
* Monster Lore (+1 to knowledge checks when finding weakness of an enemy)
* +2 fort and +2 will
- 1 BaB
- Gets to fighter bonuses 1 level slower
lvl 3-Fighter
* Weapon Focus (lvl 2 fighter feat)
* Divine Obedience (Irori: +4 to all knowledge checks)
The idea here is that at lvl 3, he gets...
Profession (all) +3
Profession (merchant) +5
Knowledge (all) +6
Knowledge (religion) +12
Knowledge (arcana) +10
Knowledge (dungoneering) +10
Knowledge (nature) +10
Knowledge (engineering) +10
Diplomacy: +9
Bluff: +9 (+10 with studied target)
Intimidate: +8
Surival: +5
Sense Motive: +5
------------
So he's a fighter who becomes useful no matter what the scenario is. He can make any skill check pretty darn well. He can talk pretty well. He can fight. His 3 skill points per level are no longer that big a deal.
That is, at lvl 3 he's getting with studied target:
+10 to hit
2d6+11 damage
--------------
However, if he just goes Fighter (3), he ends up with...
Profession (all) +3
Profession (merchant) +5
Knowledge (all) +6
Knowledge (religion) +9
Knowledge (engineering) +10
Knowledge (dungoneering) +10
Intimidate: +4
Survival: +5
+10 to hit
2d6+15 damage
That equals getting +5 damage a level earlier, but losing out on a huge bonus to social skills, knowledge skills, and some light magic.
So...is the dip worth it?
Yes, if only because losing a level of fighter is almost not worth mentioning in really any situation.
That all depends on what you're valuing more. Would you rather your PC be more of a face/out of combat character? If so, the Inquisitor Dip can be worthwhile. The only downside is that it doesn't scale particularly well (though being able to aid an out-of-combat skill can still be contributing to the scenario), and that if you're playing to maximum level, missing a very powerful capstone.
If you're wanting more offensive power, I'd stick with pure Fighter. In fact, I would've tacked on the Lore Warden or Tactician archetype, so as to get more skill points per level, and still maintain your offensive power.
How does it not scale well? For PFS, the max level is 12. So loses a bonus feat. Or is it that the knowledge checks don't get much better due to the 3 skill points per level?
Also both tactician and lore warden look interesting...though they lose heavy armor. And that's a pretty big blow.
These skills might look goof for a lv 3 character but they aren't going to get much better as you level. Meaning it'll probably seem less and less worth it as you level
Well the thing is I'm doing PFS right now with a similar sanctified slayer, who is 1 game from lvl2. The lack of armor and low HP means that he hits like a truck but does really easily. In one combat I did 37 damage in two hits as a lvl1...and also had to run away and heal myself after nearly losing my head. The first game had the same thing happen, sans the damage.
The out of combat skills are important to me, I don't want to give that up. I always feel bad for the fighter and paladin players who sit around waiting for combat because they have nothing else to do. But at the same time I'd like to hit hard in combat as well, while being able to survive the inevitable counter attack. This is my attempt at getting that.
Also...I just saw Spellbreaker as an inquisitor archetype. Against most will saves (mind altering is just about all of them, right?), roll 2 times and pick the best result. That, with the +2 will saves from inquisitor seems to make the dip worth it. Lose out on 1 BaB and slower fighter progression, to get some really good magic defense, along with social and knowledge skills.
Though I am starting to see what is meant by the skills dropping off. At lvl10, a wizard would have around +18 to a knowledge skill, while I would still be at +10. And a bard would have me beat by even more. But still...my last game consisted of 1 barbarian, 2 fighters, 1 monk and my inquisitor. So having the option to step up and at least attempt a skill check for just about anything still seems useful...
|
Con 16 and a single Feat for Heavy Armor Proficiency sorta solve the problems you're listing with going straight Inquisitor. At least IMO. And you could go without the Sanctified Slayer and use Judgment partially defensively, if you wanted. It can boost AC, remember.
Still, if you don't want to go Inquisitor, you certainly aren't obligated to. But I wouldn't aim for Fighter if you want out-of-combat skills. There are many classed that are good at that, but Fighter is only one of them with some fiddling.
One option, if going straight Fighter, is to go Lore Warden (as suggested) and then just burn a couple of Feats on Heavy Armor Proficiency. That option is pricey, but it does make you better at skills, and can be combined with Advanced Weapon Training (for yet more skills) pretty readily. You'll also be amazing at combat maneuvers, which is nice.
Or, of course, you could go with another Class entirely, though dumping Charisma that much and wanting Heavy Armor limit them somewhat (Vigilante can be quite good with a bit higher Charisma, for example, and Slayer is very solid if willing to go with medium armor).
This is differently an opinionated suggestion. Fighter doesnt have much to keep you picking it as a class. Extra combat feats are nice but many of them are specialized bonuses like the Weapon Focus only works on one weapon. You are also competing with powerful spell options like Fly, Invisibility, crowd control abilities, summoning, etc.
1 If you want skills then you can pick a different 20 BAB class. Any will do. Slayer, Ranger, (Avenger) Vigilante can get bonus combat feats and have 6 skill points per level.
2 Do you want magic at any point? There are some powerful magic even at level 1. Use Shield while using a great sword.
3 Dipping into a Unchained Rogue gives alot more class skills, +1d6 sneak attack, and makes you capable of taking out magic traps. Putting one level into any magical class besides Investigator lets you use many wands without rolling UseMagicalDevice.
4 Heavy armor is not all its cracked up to be. Light armor is much cheaper and has fewer penalties. Mithril Chain Shirt is quite cheap and has no skill penalties. Mithril Medium armor is more expensive but more protective and doesnt slow you down like a Full Plate armor would.
In my opinion dipping any any class while a Fighter is your primary would be worth it. If you are willing to forgo the bonus feats it might be better to just pick up a 15 BAB class that has armor, weapons, and magic (skills too) like a Magus or Warpriest.
How does a dwarf get these stats at level 1? The 20 str is impossible with any points buy or rolling system. Also, you added the Power Attack damage, but not the negative to hit, unless I missed Furious Focus or a buff factored in (Divine Favor slips in well), or maybe factoring in Masterworked weapon. In response to question though, the dip would give what you seem to want, so not a bad dip.
How does a dwarf get these stats at level 1? The 20 str is impossible with any points buy or rolling system. Also, you added the Power Attack damage, but not the negative to hit, unless I missed Furious Focus or a buff factored in (Divine Favor slips in well), or maybe factoring in Masterworked weapon. In response to question though, the dip would give what you seem to want, so not a bad dip.
Aye! A dumb mistake I made late at night. Should be 18str, but I couldn't edit. And thank you, feeling better about it.
Such an old and out-of-date sentiment
Dwarves have a base 20ft movement, the same as heavy armor. With 12dex and no plans to increase it, I'm maxed out at +1 dex AC. That makes Fullplate a great option. Going down to medium armor means having a lower defense.
How does it not scale well? For PFS, the max level is 12. So loses a bonus feat. Or is it that the knowledge checks don't get much better due to the 3 skill points per level?
Also both tactician and lore warden look interesting...though they lose heavy armor. And that's a pretty big blow.
Sorry for the late reply, but yeah, the 3 skill points really reduces your potential output for out-of-combat. I'm not saying you become useless, per se, but from my experience, being the Aid Another guy can be just as boring as being the guy who is simply only relevant in combat, since all you're doing is improving the skill check of a party member by 2, and not being the sole person who progresses the storyline.
Now, if you had an item that improved the effectiveness of your Aid Another for Skill checks, then you would be a big asset out of combat, solely for that purpose, since adding what I imagine would be +7 to the check, is very powerful, whereas +2 is convenient and helpful, but not exactly gamechanging either.
If you truly want Heavy Armor, you're proficient with Medium Armor via the Inquisitor, archetype and all. Becoming proficient with Heavy Armor is only a feat away from that, and you already chose to lose/delay a bonus feat for the Inquisitor level, I'm sure you can stomach losing another (bonus) feat for the +3 or so AC you'll gain from the feat. (It's certainly more preferable than taking the likes of Dodge.)
Also, with Lore Warden, you're gaining 2 skill points for Intelligence-based skills, all knowledge skills become Class Skills for you (+3 for all those Knowledges you've improved), and since Armor Training does jack all for you (only have a 12 Dexterity, Armor Check Penalty doesn't particularly matter for you, and movement speed doesn't increase), you're only gaining some very interesting and powerful features.
And all you have to give up is a chain of crappy features, and a feat for Heavy Armor proficiency. It's seriously worth it in my opinion.
Why not just go Slayer? It seems to cover everything you want in one simple package.
I dont think OP hasnt explained why he wants to a Fighter over other classes that are more versatile and still get bonuses. Warpriest has bonus feats every 3 levels. Range has Ranger Combat Style bonus feats at 2, 6, and 10.
Ranger, Hunter, Druid, and (animal domain) inquisitor can get animal companions that are significant boosts to battle power.
Multiclassing is probably the best thing for Pathfinder Society in regards to spell-less classes. You arent going to go to the top levels or mythic tiers.
Yes dipping into a class is good for the FIghter. The only thing I can think of that is unique to the Fighter is Advanced Weapon Training and that isnt much use in Pathfinder society Campaign.
Well the idea of the fighter is just to get lots of feats. Fighter gives all the combat ones. Leveling gets the fun ones.
Lvl1: Breadth of Experience: +2 to all knowledge skills and can make them untrained
Lvl3: Divine Obedience Irori: +4 to all knowledge skills
Lvl5: Dilettante: +2 to all of my trained knowledge skills (I'll get most knowledge skills from fighter and inquisitor)
Scarab Sage Faction: +5 in knowledge history and planes, increases with faction goals
Comes out to be...
Going with this point buy:
Str18 Dex12 Con15 Int12 Wis12 Cha5
It eventually becomes:
Str20 Dex12 Con16 Int12 Wis12 Cha5
I'll get 4 skill points per level, and 7 at lvl2 from inquisitor. By lvl12 that's 51 skill points. 35 into my knowledge skills, 16 left over to get 12 in diplomacy and 4 in other.
Knowledge Local/Geography/Nobility: +9
Knowledge Engineering/Dungeoneering/Nature/Arcane/Planes/History/Religion: +17
Diplomacy: +18 (gets +2 from stoic negotiator)
Bluff: +7
Intimidate: +7
Survival: +5
Profession Merchant +5 (wisdom, breadth, stoic negotiator)
At the same time, as a Str20 two handed fighter, he gets 5 combat feats, weapon training, and gets to hit for double strength due to his class features.
For magical defense, he gets Will +9 (feats, trait, wisdom, classes) and can roll twice picking the better 2. So the dip into Spelleater inquisitor helps shore up a fighter weakness.
So the idea, really, is to just have a simple in-your-face Meele Striker/Tank who is generally useful to have around. The Roy Greenhilt of fighters, if you will.
Im sure that a +17/18 at lvl12 can't compare to a specialist like a bard...but it should able to step up in the absence of a specialist, right?
The key question is "do you think you'll have fun?"
That's the sole criterion. I personally like all kinds of dips with fighter to vary each character's flavor. I am not a huge optimizer, and my builds will be nowhere as strong as some of the other posters. I would happily play either of your builds.
The Fighter in an inherenetly specialized and youve gone in the opposite direction by trying to specialize in skills at the expense of heavily lacking in physical besides raw strength.
Im going over the stats you gave out and I cant see how you have such high hit chance and damage bonuses by level 3.
18 strength(4), 2 fighter levels(2), and weapon focus(1) would give +7hit(+8 with studied target, +7 with Power Attack). You GM would have to authorize the Longhammer to be part of a Weapon group for Weapon training bonus(1) at level 5.
for damage 18 strength is +6 for two handed, study target adds +1 so +7 total. Power attack would add +3 to make a +10 roll. How did you get +15?
Edit: yes, I think youve already gotten chosen. Youve got a basic beatstick with alot of knowledge bonuses. I would pick more combat bonuses as Knowledge rolls are useful but not having enough combat ability is the difference between life and (character) death.
Two-Handed Fighter is doubling his strength bonus.
Oh well finally know. Kind of makes another reason to not pick heavy armor and you would still take huge penalties to any test, such as drowning as soon as you make any strength or especially a Dex test.
But there are PLENTY of missing and very useful combat feats that are completely being overlooked. Combat Reflexes with a Reach Weapon. Lunge, Furious Focus, Cleave, or utility powers like Iron Will, toughness, Improved Initiative.
Still it looks like a slow beatstick with high knowledge. I think it can be done better with a different class, in particular the Vigilante.
Vigilante...
I love the class. Never even thought about it. But do you need to actually keep a secret identity? Not sure how well that would work out in PFS, where outside of your name nobody really cares about you. You're all strangers sent to a place far from home to just do a job.
Would it be better to have an elf rather than a dwarf?
Lvl 1: Inspired Blade Swashbuckler (Dex to hit and Dmg at lvl 1, with free weapon focus, and can parry enemy attacks in close combat. Uses Int for panache)
Lvl 2+: Lore Warden/Learned Duelist Fighter (All knowledge skills as class skills, +1 AC when his off hand is empty, which it needs to be anyways with Fencing Grace. Stacks with a buckler)
- Lvl 1 Feat: Fencing Grace
- Lvl 3 Feat: Toughness (+3 HP)
- Lvl 5 Feat: Breadth of Experience (+2 all knowledge skills)
- Lvl 7 Feat: Divine Obedience-Irori (+4 all knowledge skills)
- Lvl 9 Feat: Dilettante (Pick 5 knowledge skills to remain at 5 skill points, they get +2)
Stats:
Str(9) Dex(20) Con(11) Int(16) Wis(10) Cha(7)
- At lvl 1, has AC19, 11HP, +6 to hit, +5 damage
- Student of Philosophy gives Int to Diplomacy, making 7 Cha not noticeable outside of feinting and intimidating
- Gets weapon training for the rapier to increase damage
- Gets up to +3 AC from learned duelist
- Gets 'Know thy enemy' from Lore Warden, making the knowledge skills useful in combat.
I know that a gnome or halfling would be a better choice (-2 strength is meaningless with muleback cords, and -2 con hurts), but elves are cooler and RP does eventually come out on top. Also...racial abilities like loremaster, perfect and long limbed are useful.
------------
So which is the best option?
The slow dwarven beatstick in heavy armor
The quick elven duelist in light armor
Or a vigilante?
For a Dexterity melee build a Scimitar with Weapon Finesse and Dervish Dance works well. Dervish Dance lets you add you Dex to damage and the scimitar has a high crit chance. You can combine that with Keen weapon enhancement or Improved Critical Feat for a 15+ crit chance.
A strength build with a Fighter is definitely a specialized beatstick. Splitting feats it with no many non-combat feats will probably hurt severely if and when you actually get outpaced by people who keep their feats, class features, and magic.
A dexterity build would do less damage, but also be more balanced, and you could just build it with another class.
You have alot of options, but I think you got what you wanted in your original idea.
|
|
Vigilante seems like it'd work quite well for PFS and that's what I'd go with, but does generally involve not dumping Charisma.
There are several easy ways to handle the identity thing:
1. Ignore it. You can spend all your time in social identity, and if your identity is public, you can use your Vigilante talents freely in that identity as well.
2. Tell the other PCs and use it strategically. There's no reason your social identity needs to be a Pathfinder, for example. Which could be useful in a few scenarios.
3. Don't tell the other PCs and use it strategically. You could easily spend all your ytime in Vigilante identity except for very specific stuff where you 'call in a consultant' (ie: your social identity).
All should work fine.