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Venture Captain: "I'm glad everyone could make it here on such short notice. Now, the Aspis..."
A wet flopping sound can be heard under the table.
Venture Captain: "What in the Abyss?! Is that a... Giant Seahorse??"
Hunter PC: "Sure is. Name's Buttercup. She's been my faithful companion ever since her daddy expelled her from his birthing pouch."
More flopping ensues.
Venture Captain: "Is... Is she alright?"
Hunter PC: "I reckon not. She's got the aquatic subtype. None of that fancy amphibious stuff. You summoned us on such short notice I didn't have time to hook up the portable bathtub."
The flopping ceases.
Venture Captain: "That's... Wait... She's dead!"
Hunter PC: "Yup. Pity that. Guess I'll just have to mourn her on this next mission by enjoying my newfound Swim speed."
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Divine Hunter gives up teamwork feats for a domain. Swim speed comes from taking Planar Focus at 5 and using the Water focus.
What I've generally heard is that you have to have the AC's death recorded on a chronicle. There was a fair amount of resistance to the idea of coming with a pre-dead companion that wasn't due to actual gameplay. My horse died on my 4th scenario, killed by Aspis agents while it sat outside the dungeon (lol stairs) as they came in to ambush us.
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That's a damn lot of work just for a swim speed. Why bother with a hunter at all?
...because it's not just swim speed?
It's on-demand swim speed + waterbreathing...or burrow and +2 natural armor...or immunity to polymorph effects...or constant levitate...or defensive cold damage whenever you're hit in melee...or added fire damage on melee attacks...or... yeah. It's a lot of things.
When you've got a dead pet, one of these can be constant. My hunter 10/medium 1 archer frequently burrows through significant portions of scenarios, using it to reach clifftops, avoid enemies, etc. Being able to 5' into a wall is pretty awesome, after all.
I've combined Good + Bull + Bear to be a frontliner on-demand against evil enemies while using Barkskin for bonus AC, making me an effective melee character despite my relatively low STR and CON base. I've put up Cold + Bear and melee'd against a huge fire elemental, who was thoroughly dissuaded from punching me after taking 1.5(5d4) damage each time it slammed me.
Planar Focus + Animal Focus is a very powerful toolbox on a swift action and the ability to have up to 3 active focuses within PFS levels makes it particularly useful to adapting in combat. Planar Focus comes online at level 5, even if you only have 1 level in Hunter, by dint of only requiring Animal Focus and Kn (planes) 5 ranks. The action economy penalty of having a dead companion is painful, but I've found that it works out just fine.
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That's a damn lot of work just for a swim speed. Why bother with a hunter at all?Because a lot of time it isn't actually a hunter at all.
It is a hunter 1 / something else X. The hunter is just there to get a free +2 stat boost.
I have yet to see one of these types of characters in actual play. I've seen a lot of hunters, but never a character with a 1 level dip for the constant Animal Focus or Planar Focus.
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I have yet to see one of these types of characters in actual play. I've seen a lot of hunters, but never a character with a 1 level dip for the constant Animal Focus or Planar Focus.That's a damn lot of work just for a swim speed. Why bother with a hunter at all?Because a lot of time it isn't actually a hunter at all.
It is a hunter 1 / something else X. The hunter is just there to get a free +2 stat boost.
I have (though not with Planar Focus). It doesn't actually work well.
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Most likely because it's a no-BAB dip that you would normally associate with full-BAB classes and possesses remarkably few other benefits other than wand use. It was best before Verminous Hunter got fixed, which cut the amazing constant fast healing and light fortification option.
I think the 1 level dip is a trap.
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A swift action buff of unlimited duration that can be swapped between evasion, +2 to a physical stat, +4 to one of a number of skills, darkvision, +5' speed, or scent (not to forget allowing feats for constant feather fall, burrow speeds, and swim speeds + water breathing) is considered 'few benefits'?
Depends on the opportunity cost associated. The BAB drop can set you back a level on feats and depending on your other class, this could delay other critical components of a build.
Animal Focus is very good. Ensuring that it properly synergizes with your build is essential, though. Bear in mind that I'm playing it from the opposite standpoint - my hunter has a 1 level dip out. My buffs are stronger and I get more of them (I can have up to 3 active including the dead pet bonus), which makes it much better than the 1 level hunter dip version.
There comes a point, though, where a +2 attribute bonus is not a very meaningful benefit, particularly since you could just buy it for 8,000 gold for an always-on variety via ioun stone. Similarly, if you can't afford the feat for Planar Focus, it loses some of the punch. You always have to question whether the cost of the dip actually gives you a net gain and there are a lot of theoretical builds where it just doesn't happen, particularly when you consider your character as part of a party rather than as an individual, or what is possible when using wands, scrolls, or actual spellcasting.
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I suppose you have convinced me, mechanically speaking at least. It just goes against what I view the hunter as being, but to each his own. My first Pathfinder character was a hunter, and it is still my favorite so far. It also seems like a druid would be better ate what you want to do, but I guess you don't want to be an animal while doing so.
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I have yet to see one of these types of characters in actual play. I've seen a lot of hunters, but never a character with a 1 level dip for the constant Animal Focus or Planar Focus.That's a damn lot of work just for a swim speed. Why bother with a hunter at all?Because a lot of time it isn't actually a hunter at all.
It is a hunter 1 / something else X. The hunter is just there to get a free +2 stat boost.
Unless you see a class breakdown of the characters you might not notice them.
For a lot of martial characters dipping a bunch of different clases gives you better saves and abilities than staying with a single class, which seem to peter out of cool abilities from level 5-10.
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I have yet to see one of these types of characters in actual play. I've seen a lot of hunters, but never a character with a 1 level dip for the constant Animal Focus or Planar Focus.That's a damn lot of work just for a swim speed. Why bother with a hunter at all?Because a lot of time it isn't actually a hunter at all.
It is a hunter 1 / something else X. The hunter is just there to get a free +2 stat boost.
Unless you see a class breakdown of the characters you might not notice them.
For a lot of martial characters dipping a bunch of different clases gives you better saves and abilities than staying with a single class, which seem to peter out of cool abilities from level 5-10.
I agree with the multiclass point you bring up. I know it very well.
Most players in my region would either mention their Animal Focus changes as they happen or get asked by the GM about the sudden availability of darkvision or similar abilities. There are plenty of folks around with hunters, but there aren't a lot in my region that don't have pets. Big Slammu and Jaws, Chance and King, and more than a few others are high-level hunters + animal companions in my region.
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*headscratch* where are you getting a+27 to handle animal?13 ranks + 3 class skill + 6 Skill Focus + 4 Social Grace + 1 CHA
Realized I forgot to mention the "why" of that...
"As a full-round action, I would like to Handle Animal that guy's mount to push Exclusive."
MORE THAN ONCE.
Thats problematic on a few ends. Handling an animal that doesn't know you is a worse than gray area of the rules (even the exclusive trick implies that it takes charm animal or wild empathy) , and exclusive is one of those tricks that you have to teach the critter for it to do any good, you can't push it.
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*headscratch* where are you getting a+27 to handle animal?13 ranks + 3 class skill + 6 Skill Focus + 4 Social Grace + 1 CHA
Realized I forgot to mention the "why" of that...
"As a full-round action, I would like to Handle Animal that guy's mount to push Exclusive."
MORE THAN ONCE.
Thats problematic on a few ends. Handling an animal that doesn't know you is a worse than gray area of the rules (even the exclusive trick implies that it takes charm animal or wild empathy) , and exclusive is one of those tricks that you have to teach the critter for it to do any good, you can't push it.
Exclusive talks about charm animal in regards to things that don't break it. My assumption when doing this is that the push lasts 1 round (i.e. long enough to prevent the charge). I've also used Flee and Throw Rider for similar purposes.
Re: using Handle Animal on unfamiliar critters, it's an incredibly difficult combat DC for a long stretch of character levels. Until I got the character to 13 and suddenly gained a bunch of skill ranks, I had a 50/50 shot at the push DC. While there's no particular guidance in the rules regarding Handle Animal on unfamiliar creatures, our local ruling on it has pretty consistently been "this is a way more interesting action than most options that a PC could have done, so we're gonna do that."
It's worth noting that the character doing this would usually otherwise trip both the rider and the mount as they approached.
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Most players in my region would either mention their Animal Focus changes as they happen or get asked by the GM about the sudden availability of darkvision or similar abilities. There are plenty of folks around with hunters, but there aren't a lot in my region that don't have pets. Big Slammu and Jaws, Chance and King, and more than a few others are high-level hunters + animal companions in my region.
The thing I've noticed is that it's usually just used for "+2 strength". At some point (later on) a class level is going to be way more valuable than a readily-available +2 enhancement bonus.
Something else that I've noticed is that people that one level dip hunters don't seem to realize they still can't freely switch between any bonus. They get one always on, but can only switch once a day because they only have one use of the ability that allows switching.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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*headscratch* where are you getting a+27 to handle animal?13 ranks + 3 class skill + 6 Skill Focus + 4 Social Grace + 1 CHA
Realized I forgot to mention the "why" of that...
"As a full-round action, I would like to Handle Animal that guy's mount to push Exclusive."
MORE THAN ONCE.
Thats problematic on a few ends. Handling an animal that doesn't know you is a worse than gray area of the rules (even the exclusive trick implies that it takes charm animal or wild empathy) , and exclusive is one of those tricks that you have to teach the critter for it to do any good, you can't push it.
Exclusive talks about charm animal in regards to things that don't break it. My assumption when doing this is that the push lasts 1 round (i.e. long enough to prevent the charge). I've also used Flee and Throw Rider for similar purposes.
Re: using Handle Animal on unfamiliar critters, it's an incredibly difficult combat DC for a long stretch of character levels. Until I got the character to 13 and suddenly gained a bunch of skill ranks, I had a 50/50 shot at the push DC. While there's no particular guidance in the rules regarding Handle Animal on unfamiliar creatures, our local ruling on it has pretty consistently been "this is a way more interesting action than most options that a PC could have done, so we're gonna do that."
It's worth noting that the character doing this would usually otherwise trip both the rider and the mount as they approached.
Handle animal on a mount is even sketchier, since the rules seem to indicate that the ride skill trumps the handle animal skill. I have no problem with handle animal on unfamiliar animals, and throw rider is certainly legit, but flee or exclusive is only going to at best make them treat the mount as not combat trained for purposes of their ride checks.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Re: using Handle Animal on unfamiliar critters, it's an incredibly difficult combat DC for a long stretch of character levelsIt isn't. Most attack animals are trained. It's merely a DC 10 to command a horse to attack their own rider instead of you
The action economy is a bigger issue, frankly. Especially if you are having to push.
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Can you even make a Handle Animal check on a hostile animal? If so, what is the purpose of Wild Empathy?
Expect massive table variation.
The rules for animals are very unclear and very obviously don't cover everything/
For example, as written, if you can speak to an animal (via magic, presumably) you can use NEITHER handle animal NOR diplomacy to get it to cooperate.
I've yet to meet a GM who wouldn't let me use one or the other but I've had GMs use Handle Animal, GMs want diplomacy, and GMs who will let you use the better of the two.
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Can you even make a Handle Animal check on a hostile animal? If so, what is the purpose of Wild Empathy?
Wild Empathy makes an animal like you. Handle Animal makes the animal do things. If you cannot use Handle Animal on hostile creatures, why would Exclusive and Serve exist as tricks?
It isn't. Most attack animals are trained. It's merely a DC 10 to command a horse to attack their own rider instead of you
My fundamental assumption is that a known trick has a command that the animal recognizes and my character doesn't know that command. Hence, whenever I do any companion shenanigans, I always treat it as a push.
Handle animal on a mount is even sketchier, since the rules seem to indicate that the ride skill trumps the handle animal skill. I have no problem with handle animal on unfamiliar animals, and throw rider is certainly legit, but flee or exclusive is only going to at best make them treat the mount as not combat trained for purposes of their ride checks.
Indeed, all things mounted are very, very sketchy. The rules are remarkably thin about such an iconic topic. I generally assume that any Handle Animal actions on enemy animals in combat are subject to table variation. As I said, though, if the choice is that or me readying an action to do terrible, terrible things to said mounted character and the mount, the GMs have always voted in favor of "let's do the fun thing with Handle Animal."
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Wild Empathy makes an animal like you. Handle Animal makes the animal do things. If you cannot use Handle Animal on hostile creatures, why would Exclusive and Serve exist as tricks?
Exclusive exists because Charm animal and wild empathy exist. Someone can charm or wild empathy your animal and THEN command it on you. This way it doesn't listen to them. (it probably won't attack the other person, but it won't listen to them either)
Wild empathy would be a completely useless ability if you could just command critters that were trying to eat you.
My fundamental assumption is that a known trick has a command that the animal recognizes and my character doesn't know that command. Hence, whenever I do any companion shenanigans, I always treat it as a push.
The rules really aren't that detailed.
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Most players in my region would either mention their Animal Focus changes as they happen or get asked by the GM about the sudden availability of darkvision or similar abilities. There are plenty of folks around with hunters, but there aren't a lot in my region that don't have pets. Big Slammu and Jaws, Chance and King, and more than a few others are high-level hunters + animal companions in my region.The thing I've noticed is that it's usually just used for "+2 strength". At some point (later on) a class level is going to be way more valuable than a readily-available +2 enhancement bonus.
Something else that I've noticed is that people that one level dip hunters don't seem to realize they still can't freely switch between any bonus. They get one always on, but can only switch once a day because they only have one use of the ability that allows switching.
Which is why you take Feral Hunter instead, which has no such limitation.
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I have (though not with Planar Focus). It doesn't actually work well.I have yet to see one of these types of characters in actual play. I've seen a lot of hunters, but never a character with a 1 level dip for the constant Animal Focus or Planar Focus.That's a damn lot of work just for a swim speed. Why bother with a hunter at all?Because a lot of time it isn't actually a hunter at all.
It is a hunter 1 / something else X. The hunter is just there to get a free +2 stat boost.
My Eldritch Knight would disagree with you. He also eventually picked up Planar Focus. The stat bonus is actually the least useful bonus. Scent, darkvision, +4 (perception, acrobatics, climb, stealth), +2 AOO bonus with a reach weapon or +2 dodge AC vs AOO when casting, even the +5 movement speed has been useful. And don't forget evasion, which is a great boon.
I switch between +2 natural AC + burrow, +4 perception and evasion most often at 9th level.
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Exclusive exists because Charm animal and wild empathy exist. Someone can charm or wild empathy your animal and THEN command it on you. This way it doesn't listen to them. (it probably won't attack the other person, but it won't listen to them either)
Wild empathy would be a completely useless ability if you could just command critters that were trying to eat you.
The rules really aren't that detailed.
I was going to respond to each quoted block, but I find your second block sufficiently addresses the first.
Wild, wild table variation.
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Planar Focus adjusts the math greatly. It's a huge upgrade from the Animal Focus list.
With only 1 level planar focus is fairly limited. You can't use several of the abilities, example fire requires 4 levels before it does anything. But yes, it is a pretty good upgrade.
Yet, from my personal experience, just the regular list is very useful and well worth the price. Though, to be fair, my character just needed one level that gains martial weapons. I found it better than +1 BAB and an extra feat.
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Can you even make a Handle Animal check on a hostile animal? If so, what is the purpose of Wild Empathy?
For starters, and this one is up for debate, but Wild Empathy does mention that having it grants a starting attitude of Indifferent or Unfriendly for most animal which encounter the character.
Handle Animal is about training pets, and dealing with trained pets. This isn't diplomacy, it's about training a lesser creature to do your biding. This skill is noted to function on non-animals with INT 1 or 2.
Wild Empathy is like diplomacy. You treat the animal as an equal and it acknowledges that it values your presence. Like Diplomacy or Charm, it doesn't grant the ability to command the animal at all, but it does make the animal much more likely to come to your aid, allow your passage unharmed, or accept reasonable requests made of it.
So a Character with both Wild Empathy and Handle Animal would be able to adjust a hostile animal attitude enough to attempt train it.
I will note that Wild Empathy requires a 1 minute to function. This doesn't force the creature to not attack, so if party members are attacking the creature, wild empathy will definitely fail. Lots of Table Variation here.
There is a feat, Fast Empathy, for 5th level characters which makes Wild Empathy a Standard action, instead. At this point, Wild Empathy becomes a combat skill, which allows the character to quickly befriend animals.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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You can only make handle animal checks on domestic animals. Wild Empathy works on *all* animals. I would also argue that you can only make handle animal checks on non hostile animals that don't want to eat you :)
Also, just because someone has ordered an animal to attack you, does not mean the animal is hostile to you. (For that matter, in general, the fact that someone is attacking you does not mean they are hostile, they just may be under orders to attack anyone who insists on going down that hallway...) Unless you are specifically targeting it, the knight's horse probably isn't hostile to you. (And depending on how much he likes using spurs, may actually like you better than it likes him.)
So it you wild empathy the enemies animal companion, it will probably try to attack someone else in your party if ordered to attack, and it would certainly make an order to get it to attack you much harder. (Look, I like you, I really do, but the boos says I gotta eat you, and he'd the one that feeds me, you know?) I would probably also have it pull it's blows and attempt non lethal strikes. (See boss, I am eating him... non, nom, nom... )
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You can only make handle animal checks on domestic animals.
Check Handle Animal again.
Rear a Wild Animal: To rear an animal means to raise a wild creature from infancy so that it becomes domesticated. A handler can rear as many as three creatures of the same kind at once.
A successfully domesticated animal can be taught tricks at the same time it's being raised, or it can be taught as a domesticated animal later.
The skill, in limited application, can be used on wild animals too.