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Watching Comrade Anklebiter teaches me all sorts of things.You can throw a bunch of crap at a wall but not all of it is gonna stick.We'll defer to a goblins expert opinion in that area...
Woah, bro, talking shiznit about me behind my back?
I'm telling mom.
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As I said intitally in the post, diversity is good. There are lots of writes up in Golarion material of homosexual relationships. All that I have read from developers is that they want to represent who plays their game. Good for them. However, that courtesy, should it not, be extended to non-gender specific themes for players?
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Watching Comrade Anklebiter teaches me all sorts of things.You can throw a bunch of crap at a wall but not all of it is gonna stick.We'll defer to a goblins expert opinion in that area...Woah, bro, talking shiznit about me behind my back?
I'm telling mom.
Didn't send her to your little vacation Gulag in Galt or whatever the heck you call it?
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As I said intitally in the post, diversity is good. There are lots of writes up in Golarion material of homosexual relationships. All that I have read from developers is that they want to represent who plays their game. Good for them. However, that courtesy, should it not, be extended to non-gender specific themes for players?
Yes, I think so (and I'm very confident Paizo do too).
The issue is how to balance that desire with the various competing priorities - time and other resources, profitability, etcetera. There's obviously a huge subjective element to it, but I personally like the fact they leave things vague until they're ready to do it properly.
That's not to say I don't think you (and FormerFiend, Hayato Ken, etcetera) should continue to clamor for it. I think it's just worth bearing in mind that there were lots of competing priorities (particularly early on in Golarion's development) and that these barriers remain.
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Being inclusive is a good thing so whenever it is possible and done well then it should be celebrated. However, I have noticed that in Golarion, which attempts to be much more inclusive than other gaming worlds, there is little to no mentioning or support of Hispanic, Meso American or Native American cultures other than putting them on another continent. I wonder if these are deliberate choices? For example, why not include some archetypes that would nod to the diversity of cultures, perhaps as a Columbian Exchange in gaming terms, of the cultures of the New World? There are some very good and well done correlations between Earth cultures and civilizations and those found in Golarion.
The comment might be made that Paizo is a business and items should make money. True. The example often given is that the Asian culture supplements have not done so well. I think that there is a difference though in not making a product and respecting that part of the fan base without making money and not making an effort to show an inclusive nature of the world.
Can every culture on the Earth be represented? Of course not? However, major cultures and civilizations on Earth have correlations in Golarion, save Meso and Native and Hispanic American cultures.
I believe that they will be. It is hinted that Arcadia is a cultural mecca of the meso American and other types of native culture. If you checkout Distant Shores, you should see some of this in one of the cities that is mentioned.
Also, the Erutaki represent the innuit cultures. They live on the crown of the world and are mentioned in the Jade Regent Adventure Path in the back extra world information sections. I believe it is the 3rd book of the adventure path that mentions them.
Also, the Inner Sea Race guide makes mention to both.
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So inclusivity is a bad thing?
Well, depends on what you mean with the term. I don't think inclusivity is bad, but if it's done wrong, it damages more than it does good. Historically speaking, women were never underrepresented in RPGs. But for a long time, they obviously weren't represented in a way making women wnat to play role-playing games. I happen to think that Paizo does a tremendously better job at that.
There's already a lot of inclusivity in the setting, and even if the Inner Sea region is largely dominated by european-style nations, there's an equivalent for Asia, for Africa and for America (which has yet to be detailed and I really hope it will be soon), and you also have nods for other cultures sprinkled throughout different parts of the setting.
But it is a fantasy world, so if you expect a 100% equivalent for any kind of country, you'll probably won't find it. There is no straight-across representation of Puerto Rico as there is no straigh-across representation of Germany. And you know, anyone who feels that (western) european culture is overrepresented shoud be remembered how diverse the cultures at the european continent really are. And that most european cultures won't find themselves in the setting if they don't know where to look, because the mish-mash presented in the books doesn't actually exist in reality.
And as others have pointed out, Inclusivity still has to sell. If I compare it to the comic universe, most of my most favorite super-heroes come from a culture different to my own. Yet, every time a comic publisher publishes a stand alone series with one of those characters, I know that it will most probably be cancelled soon because it sells not good enough. Which sucks big time (and I hope it gets better over time), but I'm also not reponsible if those people wanting more support of their culture, sexual representation or whatever don't buy enough of the comics where they actually got representation. Because I do buy those already, I promote them in my neighborhood and there's not much more I can do about it.
and there's another thing to consider: When Paizo started the whole Pathfinder thing, they just had lost their main venue of income with the loss of the Dragon/Dungeon license. Starting the AP thing was a very bold move and nobody could guarantee that the ship wouldn't tank.
I don't think one can blame them if in such an instable situation they went with stuff they knew that at least potentially it would sell well. But as soon as it did sell, they started integrating more exotic cultures in their setting. But even Paizo can't do everything at once, so yeah, some cultures might be underrepresented at this point of time. Doesn't mean that they won't be included in the future or (what would be worse) that Paizo doesn't want to include them.
But I'm with Steve Geddes in that it should be done in the Paizo way, meaning that it should be done when they actually have the ressources to do it properly. Because it would help noone, if they just throw everything randomly into the setting just to be able to point at it when somebody feels underrepresented.
We had Tekumel, we had Maztica. So I hope (and I'm sure of) that we'll get our Arcadia setting book sometime in the future. I just hope that it sells better than its predecessors.
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Historically speaking, women were never underrepresented in RPGs.
Speaking narrowly to this point, women absolutely were underrepresented, even in early Paizo products. We've run the numbers, counting NPCs and representations in art, and it has taken a lot of conscious, ongoing effort to turn that around. See this and the links within for more on the broader phenomenon of highly skewed male to female ratios in media being perceived as balanced.
Speaking more broadly, it's so important to be aware of who is being underrepresented or left out entirely—we value feedback like the OPs, and we're listening.
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Historically speaking, women were never underrepresented in RPGs.Speaking narrowly to this point, women absolutely were underrepresented, even in early Paizo products. We've run the numbers, counting NPCs and representations in art, and it has taken a lot of conscious, ongoing effort to turn that around. See this and the links within for more on the broader phenomenon of highly skewed male to female ratios in media being perceived as balanced.
This. Your perception is skewed because women being underrepresented is the norm.
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Though Wormysqueue still has a point that the nature of the representation can be as important as the amount.
If women appear as princesses to rescue or daughters to marry or as an entire table of prostitutes, that's "representation", but not really helpful.
Absolutely! (And we track that too.)
Based on our experience, though, increasing representation often improves quality of representation, too. When we made a push to increase the % of female characters, NO author's solution was to simply add more prostitutes or people to rescue—instead, they wrote female NPCs who filled a wider array of roles, like guards, advisors, merchants, con artists, etc.
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Speaking narrowly to this point, women absolutely were underrepresented, even in early Paizo products. We've run the numbers, counting NPCs and representations in art, and it has taken a lot of conscious, ongoing effort to turn that around. See this and the links within for more on the broader phenomenon of highly skewed male to female ratios in media being perceived as balanced.
Speaking more broadly, it's so important to be aware of who is being underrepresented or left out entirely—we value feedback like the OPs, and we're listening.
Well, maybe I shouldn't have said never. But if I remember correctly, even in the first editions of D&D the point was already made, that women are as able as men (and that therefore no differences should be made regarding the accumulation of attribute points). Now I'm not talking about what people made out of it, but for that time, the rules were already very progressive regarding that point. Apart from that I don't believe in representation by numbers. You only need one Red Sonja to represent the point that women are as able as men. You only need one damsel in distress to make the counterpoint(Unluckily, women were depicted as the latter most of the time).
As far as Paizo is concerned: If half of your twelve Iconics are female (which they were from the start), representation seems quite equal to me. And just for fun, I just took a look back at the first RotRL issue, Burnt Offerings. If you only count the important NPcs, you have maybe 4 male characters (Sheriff Hemlock, Aldern Foxglove, Tsuto Kaijitsu and Orik Vancaskerkin) and 4 female (Ameiko, Shalelu, Lyrie and Nulia, 5 if you count Erylium as important). Again, I see equal representation.
That's what people see, when they look at your products. That's what they remember thinking about them. What they won't do, is counting the number of unimportant female NPCs vs. the number of unimportant male NPCs in the Backdrop article for Sandpoint (and yeah, I actually counted them, so I know that there are around twice more male than female characters).
If you think you need to be better than that, by all means go for it. I'll still applaud you for what you've already done, and actually don't think you need to be defensive about it.
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I'm not sure about OD&D, but in AD&D female characters had different stat limits than male ones. Mostly lower Strength, IIRC.
And that's about the only mention of women in character generation.
Would have to look in the books again. Maybe I confuse that with a discussion in one of the early dragon magazines regarding that topic. Would still fit within the same time frame (but probably pre-AD&D).
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What they won't do, is counting the number of unimportant female NPCs vs. the number of unimportant male NPCs in the Backdrop article for Sandpoint (and yeah, I actually counted them, so I know that there are around twice more male than female characters).
If you think you need to be better than that, by all means go for it. I'll still applaud you for what you've already done, and actually don't think you need to be defensive about it.
And this is the heart of the problem. Whether or not you consciously count things, the effect is still there. People form impressions without consciously enumerating characters
Creative Director
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Would have to look in the books again. Maybe I confuse that with a discussion in one of the early dragon magazines regarding that topic. Would still fit within the same time frame (but probably pre-AD&D).I'm not sure about OD&D, but in AD&D female characters had different stat limits than male ones. Mostly lower Strength, IIRC.
And that's about the only mention of women in character generation.
Oh, trust me. It's in there, in ugly black and white. That, plus a needlessly detailed table to generate random prostitutes and some other stuff that very much deserves to stay in the past.
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And this is the heart of the problem. Whether or not you consciously count things, the effect is still there. People form impressions without consciously enumerating characters
Do you really think that the Sandpoint article had a bigger effect on players' perception of women in Golarion than the fact, that throughout the RotRL-AP, the iconic group consisted of 1 man and 3 women. Do you really think, that it's effect was bigger than the fact, that the two most important NPCs in Burnt Offerings were female (Ameiko and Nualia).
My guess would be that 100% of the players of said AP still remember those two. And I don't think that the same goes for, let's say, Rhynshinn Povalli or Courrin Whesterwill.
Again, I'm not arguing against Paizo changing the numbers to 50-50. I'm actually defending my point that Paizo was better than (most of) their competitors and predecessors from the start, well, against Paizo officials, as it seems ^^.
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That, plus a needlessly detailed table to generate random prostitutes and some other stuff that very much deserves to stay in the past.
Shudder, but that leads back to what I originally said, that women were in fact represented, but in a way that didn't make female players want to play the game.
But I'm delighted to hear that our GM ran the game wrong, because in our games, we never had that (gendered stats, that is)
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They were both represented less often than male characters, and represented badly.
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Again, I'm not arguing against Paizo changing the numbers to 50-50.
I will. There should be [more? I think there's been one already] APs with all-female iconic casts, and indeed APs with all-female NPC casts. There should be players guides that encourage or outright mandate playing as women. The number of these APs should dwarf the number of co-ed APs, if not crowd them out entirely. This state of affairs should continue for the next couple hundred years. If only to make up for lost time.
I see what you did there.
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I mean, I think continuing it for a couple hundred years would be a bit much. I don't see what good that would do—future generations won't benefit from the "compensation", and older generations will be dead. There's no cogent benefit. But the practice of all-female stories should become much more prevalent than all-male stories for at least a generation or so, definitely.
Yeah, that was the line that led me to my conclusion.
I apologize. :-)
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For me, at least some of what sticks, and feels 'iconic' for representation, is the cover art and the standout images.
I look forward to a day when more of the iconic imagery for fantasy includes a female hero. When I think back, I see images of Conan on his throne, with scantily clad women at his feet, or the Death Dealer on his horse, or 'A Paladin in Hell,' or even Emirkol the Chaotic riding through town. Elric holding Stormbringer aloft, Fafhrd & the Gray Mouser, John Carter. Generally images of dudes.
One notable exception is the somewhat iconic image of Laurana standing over Sturm. (Although all sorts of discussions could follow from the notion that the woman only gets to be the hero after the man is dead, or whatever, but that's a digression.)
Seelah, in that respect, is a godsend. She gets a lot of good covers, large and in-charge. Kyra having a sword also, to my eye, kind of elevates her from looking like a backup support character to 'butt kicking adventurer.'
Fantasy art often has a dude 'tanking' as the point of focus / centerpiece, and lady characters either in the back doing some casting or support, or sneaking around for a backstab, so a cover like Ultimate Campaigns, where Seelah is up-front and 'tanking,' and Ezren is in the back in a support role, is a fun break from tradition.
Thanks to Paizo's choices for Iconics, that's not even the only option. Amiri could also be 'up front' with Lem or Harsk or Ezren a step behind, or the iconic Swashbuckler could be holding the line, with the Alchemist throwing bombs from the safe space she's providing.
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Oh well, I should probably apologize to the OP for having derailed his thread with one uncautiosly phrased sentence when actually around 90% of my original post were on topic but got totally disregareded because of that. So please cut the first paragraph of my original post while I still stand by what I said in the following paragraphs
I close this from my side with:
Speaking more broadly, it's so important to be aware of who is being underrepresented or left out entirely—we value feedback like the OPs, and we're listening.
I didn't want to come across as arguing against you doing so (especially not if it leads to an Arcadia book being published soon) and if that's the case, I apologize.