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On that note, I do have one friend who supports a theory that African tribes were in semi-regular contact with the Americas prior to the advent of European colonialism, of their own initiative and by their own means.
Again, I personally don't know how much evidence supports that particular theory; my own personal research into the subject is limited to reading a section on a wikipedia page. But practically every year we do find stronger and stronger evidence for more and more Pre-Columbian contact events. Even ignoring viking contact which is settled fact at this point, there's speculation ranging from Crusades-era all the way back to ancient Rome and Greek city-states.
So even if one doesn't believe these theories in real life, they're certainly excellent fodder for a fictional setting.
there's virtually no evidence for African-American contact before Columbus.
But like you said, it does make for fun in campaign settings.
Me, i'm a big fan of throwing in theosophical elements - Ascended Masters, Lost Continents, UFOs, ancient weird stuff - but there's also brilliant little old-timey conspiracy theories, like the Britons originally being Chinese, Hollow Earths, mystical numbers, or that Giants built the Roman Ruins (which is already IN the campaign setting, come to think of it). ..
On that note, I do have one friend who supports a theory that African tribes were in semi-regular contact with the Americas prior to the advent of European colonialism, of their own initiative and by their own means.
Again, I personally don't know how much evidence supports that particular theory; my own personal research into the subject is limited to reading a section on a wikipedia page. But practically every year we do find stronger and stronger evidence for more and more Pre-Columbian contact events. Even ignoring viking contact which is settled fact at this point, there's speculation ranging from Crusades-era all the way back to ancient Rome and Greek city-states.
So even if one doesn't believe these theories in real life, they're certainly excellent fodder for a fictional setting.
Most of that is Thor Hyerdahl of the famous Ra and Kon-Tiki expeditions, but his methodology has come under question. The craft that Hyerdahl used would at best, only allowed one-way trips. There is also doubt about the accuracy of his reproduction ships.
But for fantasy... go for it!
Most of that is Thor Hyerdahl of the famous Ra and Kon-Tiki expeditions, but his methodology has come under question. The craft that Hyerdahl used would at best, only allowed one-way trips. There is also doubt about the accuracy of his reproduction ships.Hey! I've just been rereading Kon-Tiki, so that's kind of cool. Also reread his Fatu-Hiva, which was his early introduction to Polynesia in an attempt to get away from civilization back in the 30s. Where he first started developing those theories.
I first read them long ago as a kid when we were doing a lot of sailing and travelling. Back then I bought into most of the theories, but there was less opposing evidence then.
Still, there's been some bits of confirmation. I haven't really looked into the African/Ra connection, but there's been at least one study showing pre-Contact South American genes in at least Easter Island populations. The main settlement was still from the west, but there was some population contact, which explains the various plant transfers he cited as evidence.
Given what we now know about Polynesian navigation and sailing skills, I'd be kind of shocked if they hadn't reached the mainland.
What we know about Polynesian skills is that they pretty much amounted to sailing in one direction until one of the following happened.
1. They ran into a storm which destroyed the craft causing all to drown.
2. They missed land completely and sailed until they died of starvation and/or thirst.
3. They got lucky and hit land with food and water so that result 2 did not happen. Again the techniques employed were not such that Polynesia saw a lot of two way traffic. Much of the colonization efforts were done out of desperation from island over-crowding.
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I've got a slightly divergent view about Golarion's inclusivity.
While it's a mish-mash of real world cultures, it's not a diverse selection. In the inner sea region, what's true of virtually every region? State-level social organization. This nation or that one may have superficial differences between them.. but strip away the superficial dressing and Nidal isn't that much different than Andoran and Andoran really isn't any different from Cheliax.
My complaint is most everyone identifies with a nation-state in what's "clearly" a pre-Westphalian world. Why is the beer-brewer from Almas considered an Andoran first and foremost? He "should" be self-identifying primarily as a Caylenite (or other appropriate religion), a member of a beer-brewing guild/society/sodality, or even a part of the community of Almas instead of thinking of himself foremost as a citizen of any nation. Focusing on the borders between this kindgom or that empire is not at all in line with a fantasy-medieval world, in my view. That doesn't correspond with the real world until the Renaissance and the "God and Country" sentiments that come with Nationalism.
There's a bit of recognition in the appropriateness of contrasting all this in the "backwards" peoples like the Shoanti and Ekujae, but imo the nations of the Inner Sea should be the exception rather than the rule.
Well said.
Then again, part of the Inner Sea is clearly described as Renaissance-equivalent. At a guess, I'd include at least Alkenstar, Taldor, Andoran and Cheliax in this group. They have (some) firearms. They have the printing press and early journalism. They even have the beginnings of an industrial revolution, as seen (quite gruesomely) in Andoran's logging industry. Wherever these countries don't quite have Renaissance technology, they certainly have sophisticated-enough magic to substitute for it.
As in our own history, not all of the nations of the Inner Sea are undergoing the pseudo-Renaissance simultaneously. Look at Italy and England, for instance. Overall, I'd guess that in some countries, people would categorize themselves by home village way before nation, but other Golarion countries seem justified to me in presenting a nationalist perception.
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It's also worth noting that Golarion's history and the history of many of even the smaller kingdoms in it go back much longer than anything in reality. Taldor is something like 5000 years old. Even Ustalav is around 2000 - older than Rome.
It might be reasonable to think in more nationalist terms with that kind of history behind you.
Paizo warned us against making fictional histories too long in the Gamemastery Guide, but they didn't take their own advice. To preserve my peace of mind, I generally knock a zero off of long term Golarion history references (thousands of years ago to hundreds of years ago), then shift more modern events to the next shorter unit (40 years of revolution in Galt becomes 40 months, or just over three years). I find it makes the timeline much easier to swallow without frothing at the mouth.
I think Pathfinder made a very deliberate choice to be a Eurocentric setting. There's a reason we have dozens of white European-inspired countries on the "main continent", while the rest, such as Arcadia, largely get shunted out of sight. And then we get fed the "Oh, well we can't possibly represent everyone" excuse, as though it somehow wasn't someone's call to fill the "main continent" with a certain cast.
As someone who's sort of bored of hearing about Cheliax and its former vassal states, it's a real shame.
Or, my thoughts:
Maybe we should just make some room! We'll get rid of Cheliax, Andoran, Taldor, Galt, the River Kingdoms (we don't need a whole country for Alaska anyways), Druma, Isger, Nidal, Nirmathas, Ustalav, Brevoy, Sarkoris, Molthune, Irrisen, the white Varisian city-states, Kyonin, the Five Kings Mountains...
...Gosh, we're all worried about not having room for all those diverse cultures, but we sure had room for a lot of the, uh, white ones.
Which I think is the point. Sure, getting to a whole other continent is hard, but Paizo's the one that chose to put these cultures on a whole other continent. Cheliax is the apple of everyone's eye. That region is where we centered the game. Hell, even if you go to the Mwangi Expanse, you still have to deal with the Chelaxian a#*~@*$s trying to colonize the place.
It's a fairly eurocentric setting, not in theory, but in practice. That's not an inherently bad thing, but it is a fact, and maybe a slightly regrettable one in the context of fantasy settings as a genre.
Contributor
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I suspect that the info in the GameMastery Guide comes from experience - I recall someone (James Jacobs?) saying somewhere that in hindsight, they should have made the timeline much shorter.
Saying that they didn't take their own advice, while somewhat accurate, leaves out that they only gave that advice several years after making the bad decision. ^_^
Publisher, Chief Creative Officer
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Yes, we would have made the timeline shorter if we had a chance to do it again. The real problem is in mapping the fall of Azlant to the ice age melt on Earth that allegedly sunk Atlantis, which is probably where the 10,000-year scale comes from.
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I suspect that the info in the GameMastery Guide comes from experience - I recall someone (James Jacobs?) saying somewhere that in hindsight, they should have made the timeline much shorter.
Saying that they didn't take their own advice, while somewhat accurate, leaves out that they only gave that advice several years after making the bad decision. ^_^
Correct; as Erik said, we would have made the timeline shorter had we had the chance to do it again. The fact that we mention "don't make your timeline too long" in the GameMastery Guide is BECAUSE we learned this lesson ourselves the hard way a few years BEFORE we built the GameMastery Guide, and wanted to share that wisdom with other GMs out there rather than sweep that lore under the proverbial rug.
We can't take our own advice years before we give said advice out, after all. No one can. Except maybe those pesky time travelers.
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Of course having the long lived races around also complicates things. How might US history and politics be different if some of the elven founding Fathers were still around?
Ask the Winter Council. ^_^
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I suspect that the info in the GameMastery Guide comes from experience - I recall someone (James Jacobs?) saying somewhere that in hindsight, they should have made the timeline much shorter.
Saying that they didn't take their own advice, while somewhat accurate, leaves out that they only gave that advice several years after making the bad decision. ^_^
Correct; as Erik said, we would have made the timeline shorter had we had the chance to do it again. The fact that we mention "don't make your timeline too long" in the GameMastery Guide is BECAUSE we learned this lesson ourselves the hard way a few years BEFORE we built the GameMastery Guide, and wanted to share that wisdom with other GMs out there rather than sweep that lore under the proverbial rug.
We can't take our own advice years before we give said advice out, after all. No one can. Except maybe those pesky time travelers.
i smell a re-boot coming on... ;=)
Maybe we should just make some room! We'll get rid of Cheliax, Andoran, Taldor, Galt, the River Kingdoms (we don't need a whole country for Alaska anyways), Druma, Isger, Nidal, Nirmathas, Ustalav, Brevoy, Sarkoris, Molthune, Irrisen, the white Varisian city-states, Kyonin, the Five Kings Mountains...
...Gosh, we're all worried about not having room for all those diverse cultures, but we sure had room for a lot of the, uh, white ones.
Which I think is the point. Sure, getting to a whole other continent is hard, but Paizo's the one that chose to put these cultures on a whole other continent. Cheliax is the apple of everyone's eye. That region is where we centered the game. Hell, even if you go to the Mwangi Expanse, you still have to deal with the Chelaxian a#*~@*$s trying to colonize the place.
It's a fairly eurocentric setting, not in theory, but in practice. That's not an inherently bad thing, but it is a fact, and maybe a slightly regrettable one in the context of fantasy settings as a genre.
Disregard all of my post save this quote. I think Paizo really needs to be more willing to consider that it screwed up along this line, but my language in that post was needlessly confrontational and divisive, as well as unclear in my actual meaning.
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Ya gotta start somewhere, and they started with a pretty significant crossroads: the pseudo-Mediterranean. That let them address pseudo-Europe, pseudo-Africa, and pseudo-Arabia right away. With Jalmaray, they even shoehorned pseudo-Indian cultures into a map that would have excluded them in a more literal Earth-analog. Not so monolithic after all.
My personal quibbles about diversity relate more to the fact that on the Inner Sea map, there's one elven country, one orcish country, one dwarven country, no majority halfling or gnome countries at all, and dozens upon dozens of human countries.
And don't get me started on the references to Varisia as a frontier. Whose frontier would that be? Cheliax's? Taldor's, before them? I don't think the Shoanti ever thought that part of their former range was a frontier, compared to the rest of it. Okay, getting tired. Ranting. Going to bed. G'night, all.
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Whose frontier would that be? Cheliax's?
Exactly. It was Cheliax trying to colonize Varisia, only giving up this attempt because of the death of Aroden and the turmoil which came out of it.
I also took the frontier reference more in the vein of what WotC used to call the Point of Light setting. You have basically three greater hubs of civilization (Korvosa, Magnimar and Riddlepoint), then you have smoe smaller settlements, but essentially, 90% of Varisia is wilderness riddled with old ruins. So Varisia allowed for a more generic approach to the Adventure Paths without having other topics flowing around that people might prefer to explore. And apart from that, the setting was still in construction when the first AP came out, so it probably helped a lot not to create wrong expectations.
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Disregard all of my post save this quote. I think Paizo really needs to be more willing to consider that it screwed up along this line, but my language in that post was needlessly confrontational and divisive, as well as unclear in my actual meaning.Maybe we should just make some room! We'll get rid of Cheliax, Andoran, Taldor, Galt, the River Kingdoms (we don't need a whole country for Alaska anyways), Druma, Isger, Nidal, Nirmathas, Ustalav, Brevoy, Sarkoris, Molthune, Irrisen, the white Varisian city-states, Kyonin, the Five Kings Mountains...
...Gosh, we're all worried about not having room for all those diverse cultures, but we sure had room for a lot of the, uh, white ones.
Which I think is the point. Sure, getting to a whole other continent is hard, but Paizo's the one that chose to put these cultures on a whole other continent. Cheliax is the apple of everyone's eye. That region is where we centered the game. Hell, even if you go to the Mwangi Expanse, you still have to deal with the Chelaxian a#*~@*$s trying to colonize the place.
It's a fairly eurocentric setting, not in theory, but in practice. That's not an inherently bad thing, but it is a fact, and maybe a slightly regrettable one in the context of fantasy settings as a genre.
Paizo is also a business and they want their new game to succeed. Sticking to traditional fantasy tropes while trying to add diversity where they can is more likely to suceed than creating a faux New World as the default setting. I mean...from what I have heard, there Tian Xia products didn't sell all that well, and and Fantasy Asia is probably better represented in RPGs than Fantasy Americas.
Also, most of the SRD is currently based on a fantasy-based Europe, from monsters to classes. Starting with a non-Europe analog would have required a lot more reworking than using the Inner Sea.
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I'm guessing Lisa Stevens would, as she performed the financial autopsy of TSR.
For Maztica, we can probably infer a "not that great" considering that it never went beyond the first wave of releases.
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Yeah, it was that and some modules, I think.
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Whose frontier would that be? Cheliax's?Exactly. It was Cheliax trying to colonize Varisia, only giving up this attempt because of the death of Aroden and the turmoil which came out of it.
I also took the frontier reference more in the vein of what WotC used to call the Point of Light setting. You have basically three greater hubs of civilization (Korvosa, Magnimar and Riddlepoint), then you have smoe smaller settlements, but essentially, 90% of Varisia is wilderness riddled with old ruins. So Varisia allowed for a more generic approach to the Adventure Paths without having other topics flowing around that people might prefer to explore. And apart from that, the setting was still in construction when the first AP came out, so it probably helped a lot not to create wrong expectations.
You're probably right.
Paizo is also a businessDisregard all of my post save this quote. I think Paizo really needs to be more willing to consider that it screwed up along this line, but my language in that post was needlessly confrontational and divisive, as well as unclear in my actual meaning.Maybe we should just make some room! We'll get rid of Cheliax, Andoran, Taldor, Galt, the River Kingdoms (we don't need a whole country for Alaska anyways), Druma, Isger, Nidal, Nirmathas, Ustalav, Brevoy, Sarkoris, Molthune, Irrisen, the white Varisian city-states, Kyonin, the Five Kings Mountains...
...Gosh, we're all worried about not having room for all those diverse cultures, but we sure had room for a lot of the, uh, white ones.
Which I think is the point. Sure, getting to a whole other continent is hard, but Paizo's the one that chose to put these cultures on a whole other continent. Cheliax is the apple of everyone's eye. That region is where we centered the game. Hell, even if you go to the Mwangi Expanse, you still have to deal with the Chelaxian a#*~@*$s trying to colonize the place.
It's a fairly eurocentric setting, not in theory, but in practice. That's not an inherently bad thing, but it is a fact, and maybe a slightly regrettable one in the context of fantasy settings as a genre.
*Sigh*
This is a non sequitur argument. That Paizo is for-profit does not eliminate failings, only shift blame.
and Fantasy Asia is probably better represented in RPGs than Fantasy Americas.
Maybe it failed because they dedicated a whole book to it, instead of employing a more mixed approach from the get-go.
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I'm curious how you envision this setting looking. Just mixing in Native American, European, Asian and African races and cultures in their own little countries right next to each other on the same landmass?
Maybe stick a Incan analogue in where Brevoy is and a Cahokia one in Galt, with some Inuit in Irrisen and then we can put not-Japan in Kyonin, etc.Or just a smaller world? So things can be spread out in a way that makes more sense, with different races more isolated, but just have less of them, so that the initial setting book would have had the inner sea area and Arcadia and Tian Xia laid out in it?
TSR did something along those lines. The Time of the Dragon boxed set described a new continent on the Dragonlance world, called Taladas.
In the NW quadrant of the continent was a steppe/tundra gradient with near-Inuits, Uighur-analogues, elven almost-Plains Tribes, and goblin villagers.
The SW quadrant contained a minotaur/human Roman-style empire next door to an evil theocracy, a group of misplaced elves from Ansalon (the main Dragonlance continent), "anti-kender" (they constantly pick your pockets because you might have something to hurt them with), and an ancient race of elves who shunned contact with other races, like some versions of the fae. Oh yeah, and yeti/sasquatch!
The NE quadrant contained a ruined ancient empire overrun with primitive humanoid tribes, a small Glass Sea with 'skating' outriggers, and a Holland analogue with dikes, engineering guilds and inter-species cooperation.
The SW quadrant contained almost-Polynesian humans, and another group of ancient elves with a hunter/gatherer culture and nature-focused magic.
The middle of the continent was a still-bubbling magma sea, formed when the gods punished the ancient empire with one big comet, rather than a bunch of smaller meteors, and almost destroyed the planet. There was a steampunk society of competent tinker gnomes (again, opposite of Ansalon) hanging around smelting ores from the magma.
The setting had no Common language, and included a chart showing linguistic relationships between the various cultures, ranging from 'a few words are different' to 'lots of pointing and pantomime for the simplest questions'.
It was probably unrealistic to stuff all those cultures into one continent, but I really appreciated the number of frequently-overlooked-in-RPGs cultures that they showcased.
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I'm surprised no one's mentioned this yet, but I remember (fuzzily, so take this with a grain of salt) Crystal Fraiser noted that she wanted to give ancient Dwarven culture an injection of Meso American flavor, and that's reflected in the visual design of the iconic shaman, Shardra.
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Truthfully, I've given up on Paizo expanding on Arcadia and seeing us Latinos in Golarion. It's just not a money making venture. Bog standard Tolkein settings sell more than the exotic ones because of familiarity and ease of play for new players and players that want to play but don't have the time or inclination to learn an alien setting. It's all about money in the end and Paizo has to make that bottom line to stay afloat. I don't begrudge them or hate them. If they go out of business, well, there's no more Pathfinder. And that would suck more. It just is what it is. Most gaming companies don't really acknowledge our existence anyways, so it's really just something we as a culture are just used to.
And that's fine. I've gone ahead and done it myself, inch by inch. I have an American setting that I like, with my research, and my own twist on things. And I run it with friends that enjoy it. So really, I don't need Arcadia fleshed out. I've done it already. And anyone can play whatever race you want. Before I moved, I actually got a lot of my kitchen staff in on playing D&D for the first time ever and they all played themselves pretty much (Cuban, Haitian, and one Mexican). And they were all surprised but happy that you could play Caribbean characters in D&D, or that I allowed it in the first place. So I'm at least content with this, and as players, we should just go out and do it ourselves instead of waiting for WotC or Paizo to do it. Because let me tell you, you'll be waiting awhile.
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Truthfully, I've given up on Paizo expanding on Arcadia and seeing us Latinos in Golarion.
I doubt you'd get Latinos in Arcadia. This is the 'new world' before European colonization.
On the other hand... you've already got them in Taldor, Cheliax, the Shackles, et cetera.
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See, everyone makes that excuse. "There's no Spain expy in Golarion" "There's no European colonization in Golarion". And that's exactly what it is. An excuse.
I was able to run a game with my fellow chefs where everyone played Cubans, Haitians, and Mexicans. All ethnicities that were enslaved by European powers. And we pulled it off pretty easily without needing the Atlantic Slave trade or Columbian exchange. We just did it. And everyone had fun for five months of gaming (until I moved this past week). And that was with just a quick hour of world building. I'm sure people with more time and better abilities can do it even better than I.
We are willing to make exceptions for other kingdoms that were literally shaped by invasion. Every bog standard Arthurian setting survives without the Norse invading, despite that being a HUGE influence on England's history. We can have Spanish knights like Don Quixote and El Cid without the Moor takeover. Hell, we have fantasy America without Britain or Native Americans. And yet, when my niece wanted to play essentially herself in a PF game, she was told no because Puerto Rican's don't exist in Golarion and to play a normal character.
In a setting where we can have a transgendered orc paladin fighting demons in the Worldwound, or a middle eastern cleric iconic in a committed relationship with her female elf companion, or a powerful African wizard that is the Mordenkanen of the setting, why is it so outlandish to have a Mexican knight in shining armor adventuring with a Haitian wizard in flowing robes in Golarion.
That's silly.
Which latin American culture is Segada based on, seems like their dress and culture is a pretty close Golarion equivalent to Mexico.
Edit: I do agree with you. :-)
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See, everyone makes that excuse. "There's no Spain expy in Golarion"
*sigh*
Maybe get over yourself for a moment and read what I actually wrote instead of your fictional recasting of it above?
I did not say, "There's no Spain expy in Golarion". Rather the opposite.
Taldor clearly has heavy spanish influences. Rondolero, Falcatas, Spanish Armada, et cetera. Cheliax has the Spanish Inquisition. The Shackles and Spain's Caribbean colonies. Et cetera.
Every bog standard Arthurian setting survives without the Norse invading, despite that being a HUGE influence on England's history.
The Norse are invading... they're called Ulfen.
We can have Spanish knights like Don Quixote and El Cid without the Moor takeover.
Or... we could continue to have knights like Don Quixote and El Cid in Taldor WITH the Qadiran incursions.
And yet, when my niece wanted to play essentially herself in a PF game, she was told no because Puerto Rican's don't exist in Golarion and to play a normal character.
There are plenty of Andoran / Taldan border regions which could serve as analogs for Puerto Rico in Golarion.
why is it so outlandish to have a Mexican knight in shining armor adventuring with a Haitian wizard in flowing robes in Golarion.
It's not.
So why are you removing such characters from the setting?
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See, everyone makes that excuse. "There's no Spain expy in Golarion"*sigh*
Maybe get over yourself for a moment and read what I actually wrote instead of your fictional recasting of it above?
I did not say, "There's no Spain expy in Golarion". Rather the opposite.
Taldor clearly has heavy spanish influences. Rondolero, Falcatas, Spanish Armada, et cetera. Cheliax has the Spanish Inquisition. The Shackles and Spain's Caribbean colonies. Et cetera.Every bog standard Arthurian setting survives without the Norse invading, despite that being a HUGE influence on England's history.The Norse are invading... they're called Ulfen.
We can have Spanish knights like Don Quixote and El Cid without the Moor takeover.Or... we could continue to have knights like Don Quixote and El Cid in Taldor WITH the Qadiran incursions.
And yet, when my niece wanted to play essentially herself in a PF game, she was told no because Puerto Rican's don't exist in Golarion and to play a normal character.There are plenty of Andoran / Taldan border regions which could serve as analogs for Puerto Rico in Golarion.
why is it so outlandish to have a Mexican knight in shining armor adventuring with a Haitian wizard in flowing robes in Golarion.It's not.
So why are you removing such characters from the setting?
The first quote isn't an example from you, but one I've heard often enough. Much of my complaints are for most settings out there (Forgotten Realms, Ebberron, Harn, etc). But let's go down your list.
Ulfen aren't exactly doing civilization changing invasions. And they are pretty far away from Taldor, which has (aside from Spanish influences) a great deal of English inspired stuff in there.
For Taldo, yeah, you have the right analogue there, but most settings really don't do that. And it has a lot of Spain, but not a lot of what makes Latinos, well, Latino. Most of the Inner Sea is Mediterranean.
Have you been to Puerto Rico? You know it's a tropical island right? I don't see anywhere on the border that seems remotely close to that. Verduran Forest doesn't exactly scream El Yunque Rainforest to me.
And up there, when did I say I removed such characters? I specifically even said I ran a game with those characters. Maybe you should work on your reading comprehension a bit, yeah?
My whole point is that I find the argument that you NEED slavery and colonization to have Latinos in Golarion or Forgotten Realms or Harn or whatever setting to be a lame excuse. And this comes from three years of running a game where I had Latinos and Creole and really everyone. And where I was at in South Florida, there is a huge population of Cuban gamers that play D&D and Pathfinder. And these people, both new gamers and old, were surprised and happy that I let them play themselves. One grognard even was surprised and told me how years ago, his character was denied from Living in Forgotten Realms by the GM because there are no Hispanic countries in Faerun and you can't play one. That's kind of f!!~ed up. The cooks I invited to my game didn't even think you could play Latin and Creole characters. Hell, the whole reason our gaming group started was because my saute cook Condo and his son saw the picture of the fighter in the D&D 5e PHB and they were inspired by it. Which is pretty incredible.
You can have Latino countries and kingdoms in a setting without the slavery and genocide and colonization and all the things in the real world that made us who we are. I've done it. I'll continue to do it honestly. I started the Arcadia thread three+ years ago on Paizo to get all this information and excitement for it and it feels like a waste. I just don't see how we can make room for all this diversity for gamers everywhere in Golarion and Faerun and whatnot, and say "it's cool, it's just a fantasy game! Everyone belongs!", but then try and use the real world and verisimilitude as a reason why we cannot have Latino people in Golarion. It feels wrong.
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Now would probably be a good time to cool down and not start a flamewar. ^_^
(Also, please avoid "transgendered". Transgender - or preferably just trans - is more ideal.)
That's fair and I apologize for that. I ran it by my gf who is trans and she thought it was okay. But I will refrain from using the term in the future. Again, I am sorry for that.
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*reads through thread*
You know, at this point I think I'm just going to go with throwing out all the cultures entirely in my personal settings. If I happen to copy one, great, and if I don't...at least there won't be justifications throw around for threads like this.
I just let people play what they want and fit it in the game. It's easier than it sounds.
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Ulfen aren't exactly doing civilization changing invasions.
Not as much any more. That period is dying down. However, in the past they were a major influence on Chelaxian culture.
And they are pretty far away from Taldor,
The Norse were a long way from Spain... and the Ulfen Guard is a thing in Taldor.
which has (aside from Spanish influences) a great deal of English inspired stuff in there.
Quite true, but no reason you can't have regions / individuals with more concentrated 'spanish' elements. Taldor is about the size of Spain and England combined. Plenty of room for both to be represented.
For Taldo, yeah, you have the right analogue there, but most settings really don't do that. And it has a lot of Spain, but not a lot of what makes Latinos, well, Latino. Most of the Inner Sea is Mediterranean.
So you're looking for post colonization new world hispanic... which in Golarion would be more along the lines of The Shackles and Sargava.
You can have Latino countries and kingdoms in a setting without the slavery and genocide and colonization and all the things in the real world that made us who we are.
Yep. Though... as it happens, Golarion includes the slavery, genocide, and colonization.
Have you been to Puerto Rico? You know it's a tropical island right? I don't see anywhere on the border that seems remotely close to that. Verduran Forest doesn't exactly scream El Yunque Rainforest to me.
So apparently you can have latinos without colonization, but not without rainforests? :]
Obviously, the Andoran/Taldan border suggestion was in reference to Puerto Rico's political history and divide between two cultures. If you want a geographical analog then we're clearly talking about The Shackles.
And up there, when did I say I removed such characters? I specifically even said I ran a game with those characters. Maybe you should work on your reading comprehension a bit, yeah?
You argued that they needed to be added to Golarion. I disagree... because Golarion already has them.
My whole point is that I find the argument that you NEED slavery and colonization to have Latinos in Golarion or Forgotten Realms or Harn or whatever setting to be a lame excuse.
A: I didn't make that argument
B: Golarion HAS slavery and colonization... so I don't see how anyone is using their 'absence' as an excuse for anything.but then try and use the real world and verisimilitude as a reason why we cannot have Latino people in Golarion.
I'm still not clear who it is that is saying we cannot have Latino people in Golarion and/or why you think they aren't already there.
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I'm not intending this to sound rude at all. But... this topic seems kind of overly politically correct to me.
No one says they are required to have a straight-across representation of every single Earth culture in their alternate universe.
They have a lot. And I think the stories have been fantastic so far.
It's a fantasy world. It's not real.
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You can incorporate Latino culture pretty easily into Arcadia without needing Spain or colonization or Native American genocide or whatever. In fact I would be pretty shocked if that isn't the default assumption for Arcadia. I mean Adam Daigle has sort of implied that Arcadia has at least one "cajun-esq" location, even though France doesn't exist nor is there a lot of colonization.
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I did not say, "There's no Spain expy in Golarion". Rather the opposite.
Taldor clearly has heavy spanish influences. Rondolero, Falcatas, Spanish Armada, et cetera. Cheliax has the Spanish Inquisition. The Shackles and Spain's Caribbean colonies. Et cetera.
I read Taldor as more Byzantine and Cheliax as more Spanish (with some Italian sprinkled in, but there was a fair bit of Italian influence in early modern Spain too, especially once Spanish kings started ruling and importing talent from Milan and Naples), myself. As for colonization, there are both Chelish, Ulfen, and Andoren colonies in Arcadia, but that's all they are: small planted towns with the surrounding coasts and the interior controlled by Arcadian powers. The best analogy might be to the Indian and West African trading posts rather than the colonial empires that were able to conquer the American interior due to the plagues that ravaged the population. There's scope for cultural and population mixing, and that mixing could produce a people that looks Latin American if you squint,* but its population wouldn't be large compared to surrounding populations, and it would probably be marginalized in both Arcadian and Avistani countries. It would probably also be more common in Arcadia than in Avistan, which means waiting for a proper Arcadia book to get featured.
* Mostly out of the Spain-inflected Chelish colonies; the English-inflected Andoren and Norse-inflected Ulfen colonies would see mixing as well unless they and their neighbors took steps to prevent it, but the product would probably look different.