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This question has come up before. Does an improved familiar, like an arbiter inevitable, for example, actually lower its intelligence because it has the mauler archetype?
in answers to previous posts, no real answer is given. Just a deflection, stating that maulers cannot be improved, because they haven't got the "speak with animals of its kind" to trade in.
But... Enter the polyglot familiar feat, which specifically states that if a familiar cannot speak with animals of its own kind, then it gains the ability to do just that, the first time the polyglot familiar feat is chosen.
So... A polyglot mauler CAN be improved.
Now, back to the question: what to do with its intelligence?
Does the improved familiar get dumbed down to six? Or does it simply never increase beyond its starting intelligence?
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Really, Vhok, you force me to dwell on the deflection?
Ok... A short story longer...
The improved familiar feat does not state by RAW that a familiar should have the ability to speak with animals of its kind. It merely states that the improved familiar would not gain that abilty. The whole idea to treat the improved familiar feat the same way an archetype is treated, is purely RAI. So... Even there, by RAW, a case could already be made that a mauler could be improved. But, ok, let's go RAI and treat the feat as a granter of the "improved archetype" if you will. Because then, it would make sense that the ability is not simply not gained, as with the feat, but replaced, as with archetypes.
So, we are now in RAI world.
Then, it would require the animal familiar to be able to speak with animals of its own kind, just so that ability could be traded in. So we're looking for an ability to give our mauler just that. Let's take a mauler falcon as an example. I will take the polyglot familiar feat and apply it to my mauler falcon. The polyglot familiar feat states, under 'special':
"The first time you take this feat, if your familiar can't already speak with creatures of its kind, you must choose that category of creature."
So, for my mauler falcon, I would pick "birds".
My mauler falcon can now speak with birds.
My mauler falcon is a bird.
Ergo: my mauler falcon can speak with animals of its own kind.
It now has that ability.
Does it by RAW have an ability named "speak with animals of its own kind"? No. But luckily, we were already in RAI land, because by RAW, the falcon would not have to trade in anything to become replaced by an arbiter. It would simply not gain something it would'nt get to begin with.
My point being. Either go RAW and don't require the ability, or go RAI and allow polyglot familiar to suffice for the RAI requirement.
Now, with that out of the way, could we please return to the actual question?
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there aren't rules for this because you cannot do them by RAW, that is the correct answer.
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Now you're just trolling me...
nah you're trolling the boards.
if you want an absolute strict reading, it's 6. there's no more possible interpretations.
At 3rd level and every 2 levels thereafter, a mauler's Strength score increases by 1. As a result of this ability, the familiar's Intelligence score remains 6; a mauler can never have an Intelligence score higher than 6.
if you want to use the RAW that there's no rules stating the mauler archetype acts like normal archetypes, you're right. There's no explicit rules on what is required to take the archetype.
Animal archetypes modify familiars' standard abilities, similar to how class archetypes modify player characters' class features. These archetypes function by swapping out certain abilities that are common to standard familiars and replacing them with new abilities tailored to a particular theme. Where levels are referenced in archetype descriptions, they refer to the class level of the PC master in whichever class grants the familiar as a class feature.
so under your very obtuse reading, you can just shove all the archetypes onto any given familiar...
OR we can go with the insinuated rules that they behave exactly as archetypes.
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Core rulebook FAQ on improved familiar requirements.
" In other cases, treat Improved Familiar as if it was an archetype to see if it stacks with other familiar options: since the two things it alters from a regular familiar are that it removes the ability to speak with animals of its kind and it prevents changing the creature type for non-animals, you couldn’t make a familiar that changes the creature type of non-animals or alters or removes speak with animals of its kind an Improved Familiar."
As, by RAW, it counts as an archetype(for issues of stacking), the question is moot since you will not have the ability to trade in for improved familiar. Also, you would not be allowed to trade in a secondarily gained ability of the same name as archetypes require the original ability normally granted.
Example, say you have a rogue with an archetype that trades away evasion and levels in a class that have granted you evasion already. You could not gain a second rogue archetype that trades away evasion as the original ability has been traded away already, even though you still have the evasion ability from a separate source.
Core rulebook FAQ on improved familiar requirements.
" In other cases, treat Improved Familiar as if it was an archetype to see if it stacks with other familiar options: since the two things it alters from a regular familiar are that it removes the ability to speak with animals of its kind and it prevents changing the creature type for non-animals, you couldn’t make a familiar that changes the creature type of non-animals or alters or removes speak with animals of its kind an Improved Familiar."
welp that's all she wrote.
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Bandw2, you seem to misunderstand me. My point is that the improved familiar feat is not an archetype, and therefore should not work like one.
Vhok, your statement needs citation or at least a reference.
I'm not trolling any boards or persons. I truly, honestly disagree with treating improved familiar so RAI that it would create an archetype, and then go full RAW on how the abilities of that made-up archetype should be provided.
I do agree with your conclusion, though, Bandw2, that the improved mauler probably just gets dumbed down to six, because the int 'can never be higher'. The usage of the word 'remains' in the sentence before that was putting me off...
This would make an eldritch guardian with a mauler arbiter really funny... It would have an outer planar guardian, acting as a big dumb fighter to smack chaotic enemies something fierce in the glorious name of law! Haha!
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So... This issue was dead. And then this happened.
This archetype gives the improved familiar options, without the requirements or usage of the feat. How does it work, now?
A mauler can't have more than 6 int. In the best case this means an improved familiar loses some, a more strict reading would be that he simply doesn't meet the requirements of the mauler archetype.
You would have to pick a familiar with an int score of 6 or lower in that case if you wanted the archetype. But this also assumes an improved familiar keeps his intelligence score to begin with, which has never been clarified to my knowledge. It is entirely possible improved familiars lose their old score, in which case your mauler would simply sit at 6 int.
You could say you are intended to ignore limitations like that. From the creature type chapter for animals, "Intelligence score of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal)." And yet we have tons of animal options for higher than 2 int.
If you are talking about familiar options then what you said is the very reason why they are considered magical beasts rather than animals.
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"As a result of this ability, the familiar's Intelligence score remains 6; a mauler can never have an Intelligence score higher than 6."
The simple reading of this bars a mauler familiar from ever having more than 6 INT. This means even if it wears a +2 int headband and already has 6 int... its INT stays 6. It means that even if you have the human racial that gives stat points to familiar, it can't be used to raise the INT above 6.
It also means that if your improved familiar had more than 6 INT and also was a mauler somehow, the INT is lowered to 6.No worries though, since it would not be considered a requirement, thus it does not internally bar you from picking a familiar with higher than 6 INT naturally... it just gets lowered.
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But even if you use a magical child, how do you get around stacking an archetype onto a creature that doesnt qualify? the closest way i see this working is the mauler applies to the social identity and the improved familar vigilante identity loses the archetype?
Your familiar has that archetype and it's abilities, which you traded soem normal familair abilities for. It also has the ability to transform into an improved familiar. This ability is not a normal polymorph effect, but seems to be more akin to reincarnation, and is thus compatible with the mauler archetypes size change thing.
That seems to me to be how people are interpreting it.
But even if you use a magical child, how do you get around stacking an archetype onto a creature that doesnt qualify? the closest way i see this working is the mauler applies to the social identity and the improved familar vigilante identity loses the archetype?
The creature does qualify. It still has the ability to speak with creatures of its kind. Losing that ability is part of the Improved familiar feat, which this character doesn't have. The same is true of a wasp familiar.
Looks to me that a magical child could have a social form mauler, which can change into an improved familiar without mauler. So that familiar would have three modes, 6 int cuddly form, 6 int battle form, or higher int lower str improved form..
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Let's be clear, the 'social form' would never be a mauler or any other type of familiar;
social identity - To all appearances a mundane animal.
1st level vigilante identity - A normal familiar, different in appearance (possibly even species?) from the social identity.
3rd, 5th, and 7th level vigilante identities - Improved familiars of different kinds.
How archetypes work with all of this has been debated since day one, but the social identity is the one case which seems clearly not able to have an archetype attached. The animal guide has to go through its transformation sequence to gain any familiar archetype abilities.
Personally, I'd allow different archetypes to be applied to each vigilante identity as appropriate for that creature. So... you might have a 1st level mauler animal familiar, a 3rd level valet celestial animal familiar, a 5th level sage familiar, and a 7th level unaltered familiar.
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Let's be clear, the 'social form' would never be a mauler or any other type of familiar;
social identity - To all appearances a mundane animal.
1st level vigilante identity - A normal familiar, different in appearance (possibly even species?) from the social identity.
3rd, 5th, and 7th level vigilante identities - Improved familiars of different kinds.
How archetypes work with all of this has been debated since day one, but the social identity is the one case which seems clearly not able to have an archetype attached. The animal guide has to go through its transformation sequence to gain any familiar archetype abilities.
Personally, I'd allow different archetypes to be applied to each vigilante identity as appropriate for that creature. So... you might have a 1st level mauler animal familiar, a 3rd level valet celestial animal familiar, a 5th level sage familiar, and a 7th level unaltered familiar.
That line about social identities is not limiting. There is zero basis to believe that it is given the full text.
For one reason, archetypes do not change what a creature looks like. Even if it did... it's a social identity not a completely new creature.
More reasons include, again, that it isn't a new creature. There are no rules for a creature to have an archetype... but also not have an archetype. For instance, a Vigilante can't have two different archetypes, one for his social and one for his vigilante identities. Or that he gets different racials when changing identities. This should be no different. The familiar gets an archetype. It also has a social identity and a vigilante identity.
To add to all that, a vigilante still has access to their vigilante identity abilities in their social ability. This should also be no different.
Also, given the text...
A magical child starts play with a magical spirit guide in the form of a familiar, using her vigilante level as her effective wizard level. The familiar also has a social identity as a seemingly normal animal, though vigilantes with outlandish familiars might still need to hide the familiar.
Notice that the social identity is just that... an identity. The familiar pretends to not be more than an animal. But if the familiar is too outlandish will have to hide(such as animals that don't belong in an area and don't have a cover for why their there).
I will say again, there is nothing here to suggest that a creature can have an archetype... but not have it sometimes depending on who they are pretending to be or polymorphed into.
Also, the social identity is the same species as the original familiar form.
(the animal guide's social identity always remains as the original normal animal).
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So, to sum it up:
You get a cute cat in social form, with int 6 and quite some strength.
Then, in vigilante form, the cute cat suddenly becomes a fairy dragon, that can assume battle form as any mauler. The fairy dragon, though, will also be as stupid as int 6.
Clear enough :)
Well, the social form would also be a mauler and have the ability to change to battle-form. The social identity does not lose anything from being a familiar. It just looks like and uses the stats of, but with the normal increases from being a familiar, its original form from before it was a familiar. But doing anything familiar-like causes the creature to give away its dual identity just like a vigilante with the same social/vigilante system.
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Ah, yes, that's true :)
Two levels of fighter (eldritch guardian) would then net us an improved familiar with impressive strength, that can wear armor and wield weapons, right?
Unfortunately, eldritch guardian does not pass on weapon or armor proficiency. You'd have to take the relevant feats. Though some improved familiars naturally have proficiency and hands that can wield weapons.
But, yes, that can work.|
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Is there a FAQ on that? Because the feat chapter of the CRB, last I checked, gives armor proficiencies as bonus feats to Fighters. Meaning that they have them as feats AND as class abilities, because bad editing.Ah, yes, that's true :)
Two levels of fighter (eldritch guardian) would then net us an improved familiar with impressive strength, that can wear armor and wield weapons, right?
Unfortunately, eldritch guardian does not pass on weapon or armor proficiency. You'd have to take the relevant feats. Though some improved familiars naturally have proficiency and hands that can wield weapons.
But, yes, that can work.
The weapon proficiencies were never called bonus feats and there is a FAQ for armor proficiencies. Basically, the feat descriptions for armor that says something like "Special: <class list> automatically have <type> Armor Proficiency as a bonus feat. They need not select it." are supposedly incorrect.
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So that would require the feats... Oh well... one weapon feat and the 'heavy armor' feat.
Half elf 'ancestral arms' or human bonus feat solves one of those...
Heavy armor is just an optional feat tax.
It does make a level 9 character have that LN "I pound all chaos" harbinger inevitable with an elven curve blade (of impact?), a full plate armor, str 21, and any feats you happen to have...
Or... Since they already have short sword proficiency, it (and its master) could be a two weapon fighting beast.
Or... Have your CN Tiefling or half orc a high str Nycar (even 2 higher than harbinger) that focuses on biting. Evolved companion (improved natural attack) will give it a 2d6 bite attack.
Nice options there! :)
And at lower levels, an armored mauler familiar is still... well... an armored mauler familiar :)