Feeling like a lackey as a PC

[Buri Reborn]

My group has been playing for a few sessions now, still in book 1, haven't reached Brinewall yet, but I can't help but wonder why we're even here. There's a high level (compared to us) party of GMPCs already assembled and ready to go.

Ameiko - bard
Shalelu - fighter/ranger
Koya - cleric
Sandru - rogue??

That's a pretty balanced party as is. Unless the AP doesn't let them level at all, which would honestly be a bit weird, they're always going to be ahead of the party. Even all the traits that are supposed to tie the PCs to those NPCs just makes the group feel like some other adventuring party's cheerleader squad. My character having the "best friends" one just makes me feel like some red shirt who gets play poker with Captain Kirk.

I'm really not understanding the premise to this one.

[thenovalord]

That happens alot throughout the whole AP, with other NPCs. As a whole it's a mixed AP. Parts 1,2,5,6 are good so hang on in there!

[Dragonchess Player]

Ameiko and the rest are not so much a party of GMPCs as the PC's patrons (quest-givers) and support structure for the first two-thirds of the AP. Basically, the caravan takes the place of the PC party's "home-town" for much of the AP and the NPCs' are primarily concerned with managing the caravan instead of "adventuring;" they have other responsibilities and demands on their time, the same way that the Captain of the Guards, the Dean of the Mage Academy, the priest in charge of the local temple, etc. don't go adventuring to solve a town's problems in place of the low-level PCs in a more traditional campaign.

[Buri Reborn]

If they're handling the caravan, why do the PCs have to buy wagons, purchase supplies, or even pick the caravan feats? I've thought about this in a few different ways. I see zero reason why those NPCs are along. I know why the campaign has them along or at least has Ameiko along and Shalelu is the stick up her butt. I don't see how it makes sense. Shalelu alone can one shot most things and get Ameiko safely where she needs to go. Unless some surprise assassinations happen, and soon, I'm not seeing a point where my individual actions will matter at all.

thenovalord, not asking for spoilers, but why aren't parts 3 or 4 good?

[Uqbarian]

This sounds like something you should talk to your GM about. The main NPCs are there as backup and for roleplaying interaction. Maybe the GM doesn't realise you're feeling overshadowed?

Also, I recommend hanging in at least till you clear out Brinewall. Events in Brinewall may change the party dynamic a bit.

I don't think this is a significant spoiler, but about the NPCs' levels:

Spoiler:

The AP suggests a couple of times that they should be two or three levels behind the PCs. (I'd go with one or two myself.) They shouldn't be levelling at the same rate as the PCs (and they shouldn't be gaining XP); the GM should be levelling them up as desired. Also, the PCs should be getting the bulk of the treasure.

As far as the caravan goes, the way I'm handling it is that Sandru is the one buying the wagons and supplies IC, but he's consulting Ameiko, Koya and the PCs, so they get some input. OOC, the players are making those choices, but I can nudge them away from bad choices with NPC advice.

[Buri Reborn]

Maybe it is my GM. So far, we've been made to buy our own wagon and a ton of other equipment at level 2 because it's apparently winter in Sandpoint. Ameiko has been played as placating us, essentially giving us a generous loan, and we've been reminded a couple times that all this stuff is hers anyway insinuating we should just be thankful.

The issue of feeling like lackeys or needing to buy our own stuff when Ms. Rich Noble-pants has been raised and that's when we got those reminders. Shalelu is being played at her level 6 version, I believe, and is just dominating when she's around.

[UnArcaneElection]

Buri Reborn wrote:

My group has been playing for a few sessions now, still in book 1, haven't reached Brinewall yet, but I can't help but wonder why we're even here. There's a high level (compared to us) party of GMPCs already assembled and ready to go.

Ameiko - bard
Shalelu - fighter/ranger
Koya - cleric
Sandru - rogue??

That's a pretty balanced party as is. Unless the AP doesn't let them level at all, which would honestly be a bit weird, they're always going to be ahead of the party. {. . .}

Related to this, has any group of players actually tried playing these characters? The Jade Regent Player's Guide actually has brief suggestions for doing this, but I haven't heard of anyone taking up these suggestions. I asked about this in another thread a long time ago, but it has been long enough since I last asked that maybe somebody decided to take up the challenge in the meantime?

Issues I can see cropping up with this are that the Campaign Traits need to be reworked for these characters, and the characters (especially Koya(*)) would logically start at a higher level than 1st.

(*)Alternatively, Koya's player had better come up with a GOOD explanation of why Koya is no higher level after all these years -- especially if the GM doesn't take the above advice and insists that everybody start at 1st level.

With respect to party composition if somebody was actually bold (or crazy) enough to do the above, I could see some alternatives (some of which weren't around when the AP was written):

Ameiko - Bard recommended, but some type of Rogue (especially Phantom Thief) could fit well thematically.

Shalelu - Fighter/Ranger recommended, but Hunter could fit well thematically

Koya - Cleric recommended, but a divinely-oriented Witch could fit very well thematically (especially the healing and/or Harrow archetypes), and would actually be better mechanically, given that the party would otherwise lack a full arcane caster (especially if Ameiko ends up not being a Bard)

Sandru - Rogue recommended, but Fighter or Slayer would also work thematically, and Card Caster Magus would not be out of the question

[Uqbarian]

Buri Reborn wrote:

Maybe it is my GM. So far, we've been made to buy our own wagon and a ton of other equipment at level 2 because it's apparently winter in Sandpoint. Ameiko has been played as placating us, essentially giving us a generous loan, and we've been reminded a couple times that all this stuff is hers anyway insinuating we should just be thankful.

The issue of feeling like lackeys or needing to buy our own stuff when Ms. Rich Noble-pants has been raised and that's when we got those reminders. Shalelu is being played at her level 6 version, I believe, and is just dominating when she's around.

Yeah, that doesn't sound like fun! I'd be asking the GM for assurances that the NPCs aren't always going to be better than the PCs.

You could also do a bit of this in character -- e.g. if a PC is Ameiko's friend or relative, they could say, "Hey, Ameiko, why are you being a snob?" Or any PC could say, "If you don't need us, we're going to leave the caravan and check out that mysterious island over there." But I think it's much, much better to discuss these things out of character first.

UnArcaneElection wrote:

Related to this, has any group of players actually tried playing these characters?

I have four players in my group, and we started out with them running one PC and one NPC each. I dropped the NPCs to 3rd level but kept them in the classes they are given. (I also bumped most of the encounters up to compensate.)

I think if you were going with the four NPCs as PCs, you'd still want at least one meatshield to stand up front and give Sandru a flanking partner while the others stand at the back and sing/shoot/cast spells.

[Alleran]

I would suggest holding the NPCs at static points while the PCs level up, until the PCs are at a level where they can take the NPCs as cohorts, then see if they want to use the Leadership feat to bring them directly under their control.

[Anastasius Brightstar]

I'm running this campaign, and don't plan to make my party deal too much with the caravan specific stuff because it feels like a lot of unnecessary bookkeeping.

As for the NPCs being over powered, I'm going to just have them be the caravan drivers, so the PCs won't realize how strong they are unless their help is SUPER needed.

Then once the PCs are higher levels than the rest of the NPCs, I'm going to keep the NPCs about 2 levels below them for the rest of the campaign. But I do like Alleran's idea of Leadership feats and cohorts. Though I'm not sure my players would be as interested in RPing an NPC that they've gotten to know externally first.

[Samy]

Buri Reborn wrote:

If they're handling the caravan, why do the PCs have to buy wagons, purchase supplies, or even pick the caravan feats?

Mostly, to give the players something fun to do that makes them feel engagement with the whole caravan process. If the player don't find that management sim fun and engaging, the DM should drop it and indeed let the NPCs handle those things.

Quote:

I see zero reason why those NPCs are along. I know why the campaign has them along or at least has Ameiko along and Shalelu is the stick up her butt. I don't see how it makes sense. Shalelu alone can one shot most things and get Ameiko safely where she needs to go.

Ameiko is the fragile cargo. She's the thing you must get to the destination unharmed, or the entire quest fails. So you absolutely do not want to send her into every dungeon taking every risk. That's the last thing you want. You want to keep her safe in the middle of the caravan, and under heavy bodyguard -- enter Shalelu. Shalelu's purpose is to stay where Ameiko is, and make sure she's safe there. That means she can't hit the dungeons either, or Ameiko is left vulnerable. That's why they need someone to hit all the dungeons and dangerous quests for them. Sure, that makes you a "lackey" in the sense that you're doing quests for higher-level individuals, but you do that in almost every AP.

Quote:

Unless some surprise assassinations happen, and soon, I'm not seeing a point where my individual actions will matter at all.

Without the party, essentially, none of the dungeons will get done, and the caravan will never get anywhere. That's just cold hard fact.

Also, by book 2 you should be equals to the NPCs in level and from book 3 on you should definitely be the strongest people in the caravan.

You've got a situation here where forces are needed at two locations -- babysitting duty and running errands. If your group prefers, I'm sure Shalelu would love to switch around and hit the dungeons while you babysit Ameiko, but generally, the AP proceeds from the assumption that the PCs prefer to be the dungeonrunners rather than the babysitters.

[The Shifty Mongoose]

You could always have Ameiko and the others reading up on Tien history and politics, especially if you want to re-train any of them in-game. There's also the possibility of, should the rightful Empress die, one of the PCs could become a new Regent.
When I played through the AP, I had a dwarven caravan guard who was honoured to become Captain of the Royal Guard to Princess Kaijutsu, as he proclaimed himself. Nobody else liked the title, though.
When another PC, due to entirely foreseen circumstances, shifted to CE and then died, the player happily picked up a newly retrained Ameiko, Sword Saint Samurai. The rest of the AP went pretty smoothly after that.