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Hi,
I am playing an oracle with a focus on metamagic. He is carrying a rod of quicken, and has the reach spell feat. The rod can affect spells up to level 6.
Now, he wants to cast a reached, quickened sixth level spell (with an ordinary casting time of 1 standard action).
There are two opinions in our group.
The first states that a player decides in which order the various effects are applied. In this case, it would mean that the rod is applied first, changing the spell to a swift action but keeping the spell level the same (6). Then, the reach spell feat is applied, raising the level by +1 to 7.
The second opinion is that abilities (feats) trump objects, meaning that the feat should be applied before the rod can be used. In this case, it would mean that the feat raises the level of the spell by +1, to 7, consequently making it impossible to still use the rod, since it only works on spells up to level 6.
Obviously, my oracle would prefer the first reading.
Can someone point me to a place in the rules where this is tackled?
Thanks in advance,
Kroisos.
There is a FAQ that gives an answer.
Metamagic: At what spell level does the spell count for concentration DCs, magus spell recall, or a pearl of power?
The spell counts as the level of the spell slot necessary to cast it.
For example, an empowered burning hands uses a 3rd-level spell slot, counts as a 3rd-level spell for making concentration checks, counts as a 3rd-level spell for a magus's spell recall or a pearl of power.
In general, use the (normal, lower) spell level or the (higher) spell slot level, whichever is more of a disadvantage for the caster. The advantages of the metamagic feat are spelled out in the Benefits section of the feat, and the increased spell slot level is a disadvantage.
Heighten Spell is really the only metamagic feat that makes using a higher-level spell slot an advantage instead of a disadvantage.
So adding the feat first (which raises the spell to 7th level) is more of a disadvantage and would be the correct way to do it.
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Metamagic: At what spell level does the spell count for concentration DCs, magus spell recall, or a pearl of power?
The spell counts as the level of the spell slot necessary to cast it.
For example, an empowered burning hands uses a 3rd-level spell slot, counts as a 3rd-level spell for making concentration checks, counts as a 3rd-level spell for a magus's spell recall or a pearl of power.
In general, use the (normal, lower) spell level or the (higher) spell slot level, whichever is more of a disadvantage for the caster. The advantages of the metamagic feat are spelled out in the Benefits section of the feat, and the increased spell slot level is a disadvantage.
Heighten Spell is really the only metamagic feat that makes using a higher-level spell slot an advantage instead of a disadvantage.
You are using a 7th level slot, the spell count as being 7th level for the rod and you can't use it.
Edit:
Jeraa tackled the problem from another direction, but the result is the same.
I am curious what this is about. A metamagic rod does not change the slot of a spell (see the general entry for metamagic rods). Only your own feats do so.
And a metamagicked spell remains whatever level he was unless Heighten Spell was used. Only the spell slot gets higher. A 6th level spell plus Reach Spell (used in the +1 version) needs a 7th level slot, but remains a 6th level spell. The metamagic rods (medium variety) work up to 6th level spells, they don't care what slot is actually used.
I am curious what this is about. A metamagic rod does not change the slot of a spell (see the general entry for metamagic rods). Only your own feats do so.
And a metamagicked spell remains whatever level he was unless Heighten Spell was used. Only the spell slot gets higher. A 6th level spell plus Reach Spell (used in the +1 version) needs a 7th level slot, but remains a 6th level spell. The metamagic rods (medium variety) work up to 6th level spells, they don't care what slot is actually used.
Some players found certain combinations of stacking metamagic to do some really powerful things. I am guessing the FAQ ruling was made as a way to try to make it less powerful.
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I am curious what this is about. A metamagic rod does not change the slot of a spell (see the general entry for metamagic rods). Only your own feats do so.
And a metamagicked spell remains whatever level he was unless Heighten Spell was used. Only the spell slot gets higher. A 6th level spell plus Reach Spell (used in the +1 version) needs a 7th level slot, but remains a 6th level spell. The metamagic rods (medium variety) work up to 6th level spells, they don't care what slot is actually used.
When you apply a metamagic the spell slot used change. What matter for the pearls of power and the rods is the slot used, not what was the original level of the spell.
Thanks all!
My character, Kjell, would of course have preferred it differently, but at least we've got a definite answer now!
Kroisos.
You are wrong on that, Diego, given the language of the rules, which speaks of spell levels and not slots.
Simple question: how do you explain the existence of the greater rod of quicken, if your statement were true?
The entry for the rods states that they work with spells of the given level, not slots.
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You are wrong on that, Diego, given the language of the rules, which speaks of spell levels and not slots.
Metamagic: At what spell level does the spell count for concentration DCs, magus spell recall, or a pearl of power?
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In general, use the (normal, lower) spell level or the (higher) spell slot level, whichever is more of a disadvantage for the caster.
Simple question: how do you explain the existence of the greater rod of quicken, if your statement were true?
I don't understand what point you are trying to make here. The greater rod of quicken works with spells of 7th, 8th, or 9th level. Like energy drain or Reach heal.
The entry for the rods states that they work with spells of the given level, not slots.
See the FAQ quoted above.
I think it should work. Where do the rules say you have to apply metamagic feats/rods in order instead of just all at once? If there's a section on that, I'll be happy to be pointed toward it.
As far as I'm concerned for this particular case, the spell is a viable choice for both. You apply both the feat and the rod to the spell at once and then calculate the new level.
Except that the FAQ makes it clear that the intent is that you take the least advantageous combination when combining spells and metamagic feats. In this case not being able to quicken the spell is more of a disadvantage.
Nothing in that FAQ entry addresses the question. It tells us as what level a spell should be treated, not how to arrive at that level.
The wording of metamagic rods imply it is used simultaneously with other metamagic feats the wearer might possess.
Considering this, I would definitely say that it is the pre-metamagic spell level that determines the strength of the rod you need.
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The feats are applied when you memorize the spell. So they are applied first by default.
The rod is used when you cast the spell, so it is applied last.
I am sure you will counter with spontaneous casters, but having them working differently from caster that memorize the spells would be a insensate.
Looking at the page of Metamagic Rods again for clarity, and read it again, as well as the FAQ. After reading those, I would now agree that even if a spontaneous caster tried to apply the metamagic simultaneously, the rod could not apply if too weak and would fail to work.
Which works just fine for me, since that's the outcome I prefer.
The feats are applied when you memorize the spell. So they are applied first by default.
The rod is used when you cast the spell, so it is applied last.I am sure you will counter with spontaneous casters, but having them working differently from caster that memorize the spells would be a insensate.
Indeed, spontaneous casters.
There's nothing wrong with spontaneous casters having an extra benefit from metamagic rods because prepared casters also get several.
Unless someone can point me to a rule that says spontaneous casters need to explicitly chose an order in which to apply their metamagic feats and resulting level adjustments need to be kept as a running tally while going down that list, I will maintain my position.
You pick a spell, you apply all valid metamagic feats, regardless of the source. You adjust the level.
Better for spontaneous casters? Good for them!
And by the way, the rods don't work differently for different types of casters in this respect. The difference is brought to the table by the casters themselves. One is adding 2 feats to a 6th level spell, the other is adding 1 feat to a 7th level spell.
To elaborate, I can't find anything pertinent to the question except for this snippet out of the CRB (Feats chapter, under metamagic feats)
In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast using a higher-level spell slot.
You can't use the adjusted spell slot to determine the level to be checked against the maximum level of the rod, because you don't have an adjusted level until you've applied all metamagic. (Unless there's a rule that says you have to apply them in a mandatory order, and as far as I'm aware, there is no such rule.)
If you can't use the adjusted level for lack of that number, you can only fall back on "In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast using a higher-level spell slot."
"In all ways..." So also for this purpose.
"Even though..." A phrase telling us to ignore the higher spell slot issue.
The basic rules for metamagic feats are clear enough for determining the outcome of this issue, because it's simply an issue of applying metamagic feats to spells being cast. It's immaterial to that issue that the use of one of the feats involved is bestowed by an item. That FAQ only applies to complications that go beyond the simple casting of a spell while applying metamagi feats.
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If you can't use the adjusted level for lack of that number, you can only fall back on "In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast using a higher-level spell slot."
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I believe it is implied policy that FAQs supersede the CRB if they are in direct conflict.
Metamagic: At what spell level does the spell count for concentration DCs, magus spell recall, or a pearl of power?
The spell counts as the level of the spell slot necessary to cast it.
For example, an empowered burning hands uses a 3rd-level spell slot, counts as a 3rd-level spell for making concentration checks, counts as a 3rd-level spell for a magus's spell recall or a pearl of power.
In general, use the (normal, lower) spell level or the (higher) spell slot level, whichever is more of a disadvantage for the caster. The advantages of the metamagic feat are spelled out in the Benefits section of the feat, and the increased spell slot level is a disadvantage.
Heighten Spell is really the only metamagic feat that makes using a higher-level spell slot an advantage instead of a disadvantage.
They are not in conflict because they don't even remotely deal with the same issue.
We're not applying a rod to a 6th level spell that counts as a 7th level spell. We're simultaneously applying 2 metamagic feats to a 6th level spell.
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They are not in conflict because they don't even remotely deal with the same issue.
We're not applying a rod to a 6th level spell that counts as a 7th level spell. We're simultaneously applying 2 metamagic feats to a 6th level spell.
They're the exact same thing dealing with the "same issue".
You basically said the exact same thing while trying to make it prove your stance.
"We're not applying a rod to a 6th level spell that counts as a 7th level spell. We're simultaneously applying the metamagic rod of quicken and reach metamagic feat to a 6th level spell."
You really don't see the flaw here?
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Lesser and Greater Metamagic rods: Normal metamagic rods can be used with spells of 6th level or lower. Lesser rods can be used with spells of 3rd level or lower, while greater rods can be used with spells of 9th level or lower.
metamagic rods say they can affect level 9 spells. not sure why your randomly asking this?
I specifically asked about the feats, not the rods.
They are not in conflict because they don't even remotely deal with the same issue.
We're not applying a rod to a 6th level spell that counts as a 7th level spell. We're simultaneously applying 2 metamagic feats to a 6th level spell.
They're the exact same thing dealing with the "same issue".
You basically said the exact same thing while trying to make it prove your stance.
"We're not applying a rod to a 6th level spell that counts as a 7th level spell. We're simultaneously applying the metamagic rod of quicken and reach metamagic feat to a 6th level spell."
You really don't see the flaw here?
It's not the same issue because we're not dealing with a rod effect applied to a 7th level spell. The game's basic rules perfectly deal with the situation without causing any fuss that even requires the FAQ entry to be considered for it.
And why are you claiming I wrote something I didn't? That's bad form, especially if the altered quote doesn't express an equivalent idea.
I said: "We're simultaneously applying 2 metamagic feats to a 6th level spell."
I didn't say: "We're simultaneously applying the metamagic rod of quicken and reach metamagic feat to a 6th level spell."
Why didn't I say that? Because that's not how these rods work. The rod bestows the ability to do something. The caster uses that ability. The rod confers "the ability to use the given feat a specified number of times per day." The rod bestows the ability, but the caster does all the work. That's probably why the casting time is still increased for spontaneous caster.
You're not "applying a rod", you're applying a feat bestowed by a rod. And the rules for applying feats are as I quoted.
apparently you didn't read my post or you have a very poor understanding of the rules. that FAQ very clearly states it is in reference to abilities that refesh Spell Slots it has nothing to do with the spell level of the spell after metmagic has been applied. by your logic every spell cast with metamagic has heighten magic applied to it and I get an increased DC and more damage dice because the spell is actually a higher level spell now and no longer its original level. you keep quoting the faq out of context. read it as a whole or don't use it.
Reread that FAQ. It also talks about concentration DCs in the question, which has nothing to do with refreshing spell slots. That FAQ applies to more than just refreshing slots. It has to do with what level a metamagiced spell counts at, which is what the OPs question is also about.
The FAQ deals with issues that arise after a spell level has been determined. This thread deals with issues that spring up before a spell level has been determined.
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the feats increase the spell slot needed so if you go above 9 obviously you can't apply the metamagic as you do not have spell slots that high.
I feel like this conversation is no longer about a metamagic feat+rod?
and yes using a metamagic rod has its own rules separate from the metamagic rules.
So you agree that that using feats increases the spell slot level? Therefore this rod+feat combo doesn't work.
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They are not in conflict because they don't even remotely deal with the same issue.
We're not applying a rod to a 6th level spell that counts as a 7th level spell. We're simultaneously applying 2 metamagic feats to a 6th level spell.
They're the exact same thing dealing with the "same issue".
You basically said the exact same thing while trying to make it prove your stance.
"We're not applying a rod to a 6th level spell that counts as a 7th level spell. We're simultaneously applying the metamagic rod of quicken and reach metamagic feat to a 6th level spell."
You really don't see the flaw here?
It's not the same issue because we're not dealing with a rod effect applied to a 7th level spell. The game's basic rules perfectly deal with the situation without causing any fuss that even requires the FAQ entry to be considered for it.
And why are you claiming I wrote something I didn't? That's bad form, especially if the altered quote doesn't express an equivalent idea.
I said: "We're simultaneously applying 2 metamagic feats to a 6th level spell."
I didn't say: "We're simultaneously applying the metamagic rod of quicken and reach metamagic feat to a 6th level spell."
Why didn't I say that? Because that's not how these rods work. The rod bestows the ability to do something. The caster uses that ability. The rod confers "the ability to use the given feat a specified number of times per day." The rod bestows the ability, but the caster does all the work. That's probably why the casting time is still increased for spontaneous caster.
You're not "applying a rod", you're applying a feat bestowed by a rod. And the rules for applying feats are as I quoted.
Because that is what you wrote.
Why do you assume the rod would apply before the innate feat?
So you agree that that using feats increases the spell slot level? Therefore this rod+feat combo doesn't work.the feats increase the spell slot needed so if you go above 9 obviously you can't apply the metamagic as you do not have spell slots that high.
I feel like this conversation is no longer about a metamagic feat+rod?
and yes using a metamagic rod has its own rules separate from the metamagic rules.
Except that the rules don't ask you to use the slot level but the spell level.
Like I said before, you can't use the slot level to check for rod-bestowed feat eligibility, because the slot level doesn't exists before you apply all metamagic feats. The only level that does exists at that point is the original spell's level. Thus: "In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast using a higher-level spell slot."
We're simultaneously applying 2 metamagic feats to a 6th level spell.
I guess you don't know the meaning of the word "simultaneous".
simultaneous - adjective
happening or being done at exactly the same time
The FAQ has no bearing on the issue. I have shown why it doesn't. Please point out why I'm wrong.
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The FAQ has no bearing on the issue. I have shown why it doesn't. Please point out why I'm wrong.
In general, use the (normal, lower) spell level or the (higher) spell slot level, whichever is more of a disadvantage for the caster. The advantages of the metamagic feat are spelled out in the Benefits section of the feat, and the increased spell slot level is a disadvantage.
I specifically asked about the feats, not the rods.Lesser and Greater Metamagic rods: Normal metamagic rods can be used with spells of 6th level or lower. Lesser rods can be used with spells of 3rd level or lower, while greater rods can be used with spells of 9th level or lower.
metamagic rods say they can affect level 9 spells. not sure why your randomly asking this?
The rods apply the feat. It is basically a feat from an item vs you having the feat so it applies the same way, so the rods follow the same rules as the feats unless stated otherwise.