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While you are always permitted a saving throw, sometimes you can't benefit from a successful save.
If you're stuck in a 10 foot cube and a pit opens up underneath you, sorry, but you're going to fall downwards no matter how high your reflex save is.
Making a saving throw just doesn't allow you to pass through solid walls. If it makes certain people happier, imagine it as the character jumping out of the way... straight into the wall. They then slide down into the pit because, y'know, gravity.
It is a bit stretching how the spell work, but in that situation, if really there isn't an open space outside the pit that can't be reached without crossing a wall (the caster is flying? Or how is he has the LoE to cast it?) I would have the guy that save jump to the bottom of the pit unharmed by the fall.
Maybe the pit opening isn't instantaneous and he was able to jump at the bottom of the pit while it was stretching, or simply he was able to control his fall and to land on his feet without damage. "Robbing" a player of a successful save because "it is not logic" in a world of magic where a guy can open the floor under you with a wave of his finger while the people living downstairs still have their ceiling is using Earth logic instead of game consistency logic.It is parent of the people that want to use create pit and then wall of stone as a lit, saying that the creature within will be crushed death without any way to escape.
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It is parent of the people that want to use create pit and then wall of stone as a lit, saying that the creature within will be crushed death without any way to escape.
Silly people.
You're supposed to toss a Cloudkill in the pit, so the DM cannot accuse you of cheese.
So as much as you want to argue that 'logically' action only sometimes means action, this fails both the balance test and the "spells do what they say they do" test pretty hard.
The spells do what they say they do is being passed here. I don't agree that there is a balance test for rules questions, it seems pretty unrelated to balance how something works.
Also, if you are helpless, such as paralyzed, aren't you counted as willing for spells?
Ah nevermind, it is just unconscious that is considered willing for spells
Even if you are unconscious you only count as willing for certain spells, not all spells.
Some spells restrict you to [b]willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you're flat-footed or it isn't your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing.
When you are conscious you get to choose. When you are not conscious the spells that say "willing" such as teleport don't give you a choice.
Target you and touched objects or other touched willing creatures
Spells that are not willing do not allow you to declare yourself as willing. Yes you can choose to autofail a save, but that is a different ruleset under "Voluntarily Giving up a Saving Throw", which specifically calls out saving throws.
Make whatever fluff you want: "when the pit open the ship in the floor move you to safety", "your belt has caught in a rock" or whatever. The RAW is that you can try a reflex save.
As written, you are moved in the nearest open space. Even it that is a ledge 70' up.
I could paralyze you, encase you up to your neck in cement, use sovereign glue to stick you to the floor and then cast create pit beneath you and you will get a reflex save to avoid the spell.
I think you two are completely wrong, because you ignore part of the spell discription.
Read the spell again: "Any creature standing in the area where you first conjured the pit must make a Reflex saving throw to jump to safety in the nearest open space." Where does it say that a successful reflex save magically teleports you to the nearest open space? It doesn't. You do get a save, but a successful save does not in itself moves you, it allow allows you to jump to safety. Jump. Not teleport, jump.The spell says "jump", which is something covered by the rules. See the Acrobatics skill.
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Read the whole thread.
Some poster read "jump to safety" as you do, but most read it as descriptive text.
If we use your interpretation, we need a way to jump as an immediate action to even try a reflex save, something that should be a explicit exception to the normal rules, not a piece of descriptive text with no game mechanic explanation.
Finally, you can use the Acrobatics skill to make jumps or to soften a fall. The base DC to make a jump is equal to the distance to be crossed (if horizontal) or four times the height to be reached (if vertical). These DCs double if you do not have at least 10 feet of space to get a running start. The only Acrobatics modifiers that apply are those concerning the surface you are jumping from. If you fail this check by 4 or less, you can attempt a DC 20 Reflex save to grab hold of the other side after having missed the jump. If you fail by 5 or more, you fail to make the jump and fall (or land prone, in the case of a vertical jump). Creatures with a base land speed above 30 feet receive a +4 racial bonus on Acrobatics checks made to jump for every 10 feet of their speed above 30 feet. Creatures with a base land speed below 30 feet receive a –4 racial bonus on Acrobatics checks made to jump for every 10 feet of their speed below 30 feet. No jump can allow you to exceed your maximum movement for the round. For a running jump, the result of your Acrobatics check indicates the distance traveled in the jump (and if the check fails, the distance at which you actually land and fall prone). Halve this result for a standing long jump to determine where you land.
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Action: None. An Acrobatics check is made as part of another action or as a reaction to a situation.
You are arguing that the jump is made "as a reaction to a situation" and that you use a acrobatic to jump check instead of a Reflex save?
Not "instead of a Reflex save". The successful save is what allows you to do the jump in the first place. My reading is this: The result of a successful save is that the saving character can immediatley do an out of turn jump to the nearest open space.
If we use your interpretation, we need a way to jump as an immediate action to even try a reflex save, something that should be a explicit exception to the normal rules, not a piece of descriptive text with no game mechanic explanation.
First, what evidence do you have that this is descriptive text and not straight up rules text? Second, by your reading, we would need an immediate action Dimension Door. How is that better? Third, the movement on a successful save break the normal rules no matter what, it's just the question of how much. And forth, when the text says jump, and there are rules for jumping, do we realy need a mechanical explanation?
Remember that the whole jump to safety thing got edited in for the second printing of APG, and because they didn't want to re-set half a book just to clarify one spell discription, they were not able to add multiple lines.
Spells reference specific rules all the time, without explicitly calling that out. Hold person doesn't say "see paralyzed on page 568" after the first sentence - they added in some of the rules of paralyzation, but you still have to follow the rules only found on page 568.
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There is no permission to take the action "jump" into the spell.
To jump you need:
1) to have at least 5' of movement, so if you have already moved your full movement you can't jump;
2) even if you have movement left you don't have the action to use it;
3) after a successful save you require people an acrobatic check to benefit from it, with a DC that go from 10 (5' jump with no running start) to 30 (15', if the only open space is at the other corner of the square).
So essentially you think that the simple phrase "jump to safety" mean that we should break a lot of rules about saves and acting when it isn't our turn.
The other interpretation is that it is simply descriptive text and don't mean to introduce new rule mechanics.
What is the more credible option?
There is no permission to take the action "move" (or the way you are apparently ruling it, casting Dimension Door) in the spell, either. Unlike Dimension Door or a regular move action, "jump" is actually mentioned by the spell.
To teleport to safety you need:
1) it being your turn
2) to be one of the few classes that can cast Dimension Door
3) to have a high enough level
4) to have the spell prepared of spell slots left and the spell known
5) to have your standard action left
Are you really telling me that is more credible than jumping to safety whan the spell says "jump to safety"? Seriously?
If Create Pit doesn't allow the saving character to break the rules, it is completely impossible to move on a successful save. Yes, jumping to safety would normally not be allowed by the rules. But the same is true for every single f@@$ing form of movement.
Thjere is no argument in your post that doesn't work at least just as well against your reading of thee rules.
Overly pedantic reading of specific words that may have more than one reading is why I chose to use "relocate" instead of "teleport" or "jump".
A successful save relocates the individual to the nearest safe square. There is no game mechanic that prevents this save, and no means of preventing the individual from relocating.
A GM may include a circumstance modifier.
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... The whole point of adding the jump to safety clause was to prevent the ridiculousness of characters floating in the air on a save. Of course, it leads to a ridiculous concept of movement with no penalties off turn. But, that is how Paizo patches typically work, prevent silliness and insert new silliness(I say this lovingly). Ignore the silliness and just let the rule do its job.
Basically, no AOOs(pretend the movement is an off turn free action), the saving character moves to the nearest safe spot, so they don't get a choice. The reflex save is what allows the jump. I personally would limit the jump distance to movement speed but the current rule does not.
As for using the new rule against an enemy when you can't AOO... you can always make the pit so that the nearest open spot is either closer to your allies or further from the lone caster. So there is that.
As a side not, I wouldn't allow an AOO for the character falling into the pit so I wouldn't allow one for the movement to not fall in. Which is fair.
How about this? I'm in a 10x10x10 jail cell. I cast create pit and I make my save. I'm now out of the jail cell. Right? The only argument I can imagine is that since create pit is creating a extra dimensional space, you get dimensionally shifted to the nearest available open space. No action on your part just part of the spell effect. The rest is just another example of forced movement which does not trigger an AoO unless explicitly stated.
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How about this? I'm in a 10x10x10 jail cell. I cast create pit and I make my save. I'm now out of the jail cell. Right? The only argument I can imagine is that since create pit is creating a extra dimensional space, you get dimensionally shifted to the nearest available open space. No action on your part just part of the spell effect. The rest is just another example of forced movement which does not trigger an AoO unless explicitly stated.
... You are sidestepping step A and moving illogically to step B. The saving clause requires a safe spot to be available to move to.
In the case you are speaking of there would be no nearest safe spot to move to due to unpassable barriers.. Thus, you would fall regardless of your save. Though, you could allow the saving character to cling to the wall of the cell which would not be slippery like the pit.
This is where GM arbitration is required to allow the game to function.
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How about this? I'm in a 10x10x10 jail cell. I cast create pit and I make my save. I'm now out of the jail cell. Right? The only argument I can imagine is that since create pit is creating a extra dimensional space, you get dimensionally shifted to the nearest available open space. No action on your part just part of the spell effect. The rest is just another example of forced movement which does not trigger an AoO unless explicitly stated.... You are sidestepping step A and moving illogically to step B. The saving clause requires a safe spot to be available to move to.
In the case you are speaking of there would be no nearest safe spot to move to due to unpassable barriers.. Thus, you would fall regardless of your save. Though, you could allow the saving character to cling to the wall of the cell which would not be slippery like the pit.
This is where GM arbitration is required to allow the game to function.
The spell speak of " nearest open space" (not safe, as some poster write). Taken literally that would lead to strange effects. As an example, in a corridor full of people it can shut the guys saving several squares away, moving them trough friend and foes.
As I said several posts ago I would change the wording of the spell to "nearest open space adjacent to the pit".I would add something like "if you make the save and there aren't open spaces near the pit you land at the pit bottom, unhurt.
That would avoid the problems of moving the character to locations that he couldn't normally reach.
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How about this? I'm in a 10x10x10 jail cell. I cast create pit and I make my save. I'm now out of the jail cell. Right? The only argument I can imagine is that since create pit is creating a extra dimensional space, you get dimensionally shifted to the nearest available open space. No action on your part just part of the spell effect. The rest is just another example of forced movement which does not trigger an AoO unless explicitly stated.... You are sidestepping step A and moving illogically to step B. The saving clause requires a safe spot to be available to move to.
In the case you are speaking of there would be no nearest safe spot to move to due to unpassable barriers.. Thus, you would fall regardless of your save. Though, you could allow the saving character to cling to the wall of the cell which would not be slippery like the pit.
This is where GM arbitration is required to allow the game to function.
The spell speak of " nearest open space" (not safe, as some poster write). Taken literally that would lead to strange effects. As an example, in a corridor full of people it can shut the guys saving several squares away, moving them trough friend and foes.
As I said several posts ago I would change the wording of the spell to "nearest open space adjacent to the pit".
I would add something like "if you make the save and there aren't open spaces near the pit you land at the pit bottom, unhurt.That would avoid the problems of moving the character to locations that he couldn't normally reach.
I meant open and wrote safe. >.< My earlier post said it both ways too. Despite my word, I do get the purpose. I agree that it should stipulate that you must be adjacent to the pit. Though, I understand the design team does try to keep away from situations where medium creatures share the same square. But in this case I think it is warranted.
Landing at the bottom of the pit unhurt is fine for create pit... but then add in spiked pit or acid pit... they shouldn't be unhurt in those cases. So, it would need some additional text to handle those situations. Perhaps just say they take no fall damage.
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I meant open and wrote safe. >.< My earlier post said it both ways too. Despite my word, I do get the purpose. I agree that it should stipulate that you must be adjacent to the pit. Though, I understand the design team does try to keep away from situations where medium creatures share the same square. But in this case I think it is warranted.Landing at the bottom of the pit unhurt is fine for create pit... but then add in spiked pit or acid pit... they shouldn't be unhurt in those cases. So, it would need some additional text to handle those situations. Perhaps just say they take no fall damage.
I know the problem with safe/open. It say "jump to safety in the nearest open space" and it is always a core to keep the two words separated. :)
I agree with your suggestion. On the other hand I dislike the others pits, those are too much "you fly or you are out of the battle" for my tastes.
With the spiked pit you take damage while climbing, so you have to repeat the check once every round or you fall back to the bottom of the pit.
The climbing DCs are fairly hard too (20, 30, 35). to routinely make those you need to spend a lot of skill points in the climb skill.
Essentially, the options are:
a) you fly
b) you have spent a lot of skill point in the climb skill
c) you twiddle your thumbs.
A few abilities can help with that, but there are issues with some of those:
- dimension door or other teleport magic work or not? You are in a extra dimensional space, you can teleport to an area in normal space?
- burrowing/earth gliding don't work.
and so on.
Flying potions are almost mandatory in this game. :P
exact same type of spell but it says it does not provoke. create pit does not have this wording, I would say it does.
And this is what happens when you have to patch a spell. Since Create pit originally didn't move you there was no need for such text. So its not really a case of this spell disproves it since Create Pit never would have had such text.
Does jumping out of the way of a fireball provoke an AoO? No.
Does jumping out of the way of a fireball provoke an AoO? No.
No but fireball's reflex save doesn't actually move you from the square.
I guess I don't see how "jump to safety in the nearest open space" can be interpreted as anything but nearest open space. It doesn't say adjacent, but specifically says nearest. It may be unreasonable, but since the spell is creating an extra dimensional space, you're warping space around the target so the target get placed somewhere else because you made your save.
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I guess I don't see how "jump to safety in the nearest open space" can be interpreted as anything but nearest open space. It doesn't say adjacent, but specifically says nearest. It may be unreasonable, but since the spell is creating an extra dimensional space, you're warping space around the target so the target get placed somewhere else because you made your save.
It isn't that we are saying "it doesn't say nearest open space"... we're saying that due to other circumstances that it can get very silly when a character moves long distances from a mere save. It is entirely possible for a character to need to move further than there move speed on a non-move action.
And it is very unreasonable. If for no other reason than the suggesting that making a save somehow modifies the spell being cast to do something other than the spell does. And "nearest open space" is meaningless in any situation where there is no available space that is open. The spell does not allow your character to make normally illegal moves. Now, if you were currently blinking... your scenario could actually work. As blink gives you the chance to move through solid matter.