Why the Small Race Melee Hate?

[Azten]

My only real problem with Small races? Equipment. Adventures almost never have Small-sized weapons or armor that you can find. Find a Flametongue you'd just love to have for your pyromaniac Gnome, or a Shatterspike for you Rovagug worshipping Wayang? Too bad, it's medium. Here's a huge penalty.

What's that? Adamantine armor with really cool special abilities? Sucks to be Small, because, guess what? It's Medium and you can't even wear it.

[Ravingdork]

Azten wrote:

My only real problem with Small races? Equipment. Adventures almost never have Small-sized weapons or armor that you can find. Find a Flametongue you'd just love to have for your pyromaniac Gnome, or a Shatterspike for you Rovagug worshipping Wayang? Too bad, it's medium. Here's a huge penalty.

What's that? Adamantine armor with really cool special abilities? Sucks to be Small, because, guess what? It's Medium and you can't even wear it.

There are spells for that. (There are spells for everything.)

[Bandw2]

Qaianna wrote:

Bandw2 wrote:

D@rK-SePHiRoTH- wrote:

Bandw2 wrote:

all i know is that I still can;t make a melee kobold and not feel like i'm stabbing myself repeatedly in the leg. I know, i know, dex to damage, but what if I WANT to wear armor.

Wear armor.

Your AC will be the same anyway for most of your career. Dex-based builds don't actually have higher AC compared to optimized armored guys so, while counter-intuitive, while it "looks" like a waste, armor on a dex-based build is okay, numbers stay the same.

What you are actually losing:
-Touch AC is lower
-You have to accept penalties to skills (but since you're dex-based, you'll still perform better than a str-based build at most of them)

i don't think you understand what -4 str does to equipload.

with base 6 strength it drops light load to 15, medium to 30 and max to 45. fullplate, weighs 25 pounds on a small character. You seriously can't carry stuff without investing points into strength.

..why would you dump Strength on anyone in melee? Even with Dex-to-damage joys?

well i mean i'm not dumping it, if I dumped str it'd be 3.

to get a 14 it'd require a stat investment of an 18... that's not really worth the points.

[Derklord]

Ravingdork wrote:

There are spells for that. (There are spells for everything.)

I think what you mean is "If you want to resize a weapon or armor, there an app a spell for that. Yep, there's an app a spell for just about anything."

[Ventnor]

bugleyman wrote:

thejeff wrote:

At which point you might as well stop playing Pathfinder at all. It's not a game about realism. Even martials are heroic enough they can do unrealistic things. Whether that's small characters taking on medium sized ones or medium ones fighting giants.

Someone posed the question "why all the small race hate?"

I answered by pointing out that it not hate, necessarily, but people having trouble suspending their disbelief with respect to something with which they have direct personal experience (ever wrestle with your six-year-old nephew?). On the other hand, not many people have direct personal experience wrestling with a giant or a dragon, and therefore probably don't have that same trouble with suspension of disbelief.

Your response to that is to say that Pathfinder is a fantasy game, and that if you can't suspend your disbelief in this particular case, then you shouldn't play at all?

Sorry, but that's bunk. Exclusionary bunk, to boot. >:(

So, if a halfling wrestled a giant or a dragon, that would be believable then?

[thejeff]

bugleyman wrote:

thejeff wrote:

At which point you might as well stop playing Pathfinder at all. It's not a game about realism. Even martials are heroic enough they can do unrealistic things. Whether that's small characters taking on medium sized ones or medium ones fighting giants.

Someone posed the question "why all the small race hate?"

I answered by pointing out that it not hate, necessarily, but people having trouble suspending their disbelief with respect to something with which they have direct personal experience (ever wrestle with your six-year-old nephew?). On the other hand, not many people have direct personal experience wrestling with a giant or a dragon, and therefore probably don't have that same trouble with suspension of disbelief.

Your response to that is to say that Pathfinder is a fantasy game, and that if you can't suspend your disbelief in this particular case, then you shouldn't play at all?

Sorry, but that's bunk. Exclusionary bunk, to boot. >:(

I can kind of see the difference between personal experience of dealing with adult wrestling a toddler and no personal experience of fighting giants or dragons. I could point out that a halfling isn't a toddler, despite a similar size - being actual adults and thus smarter, more cunning, better trained, with fully developed coordination and musculature, but that's sort of beside the point.

The post I was actually replying to said "Yup. A medium creature fighting a giant in melee would be pretty much f#@#%d." That's just not Pathfinder. I mean, you'd be right in reality, but not in Pathfinder. Not in much heroic fiction. If that's what you want, Pathfinder might not be for you, because it doesn't give a game where a medium creature fighting a giant in melee is pretty much f*#+ed.

[Atarlost]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Oh, there are lots of other ways to be dangerous even sans reach. They're a bit secondary, because not having it is a disadvantage...but it's not an insurmountable one by any means.

There are other issues. Armor is halved for tiny or smaller creatures. A character who has no reach or reach only from lunge and his size bonuses to AC turned into size penalties to CMD is as vulnerable to combat maneuvers from any enemy capable of them as a normal character would be to foes moderately specialized in them. Lunge is particularly damaging in this respect since it gives an AC penalty that gets applied to CMD that is already a weakness.

Not having reach is looking thoroughly insurmountable to me. Long Arm is a personal spell. Bloodragers aren't suited for dex builds and magi have other uses for their first level spells. Summoners don't have the combat boosts to be really effective combatants in the first place.

I'm really not seeing much reason to not continue to dismiss risky striker as not merely not optimal but not really viable in any game where many of the significant enemies are medium or smaller. There might be one or two very gimmicky alchemist or investigator builds that makes it work, but as many hoops as need jumping through and as much as it ruins the characters defenses between the halved armor bonus and risky striker's own penalty and requires both reduce person and long arm extracts to be consumed before each fight against a medium foe I'm really not seeing much good from it. If there's a dex bloodrager that hasn't made it to the SRD that would be pretty good but that still wouldn't make it not a useful patch for any non-bloodrager halflings being bad at melee.

[Plausible Pseudonym]

thejeff wrote:

bugleyman wrote:

thejeff wrote:

At which point you might as well stop playing Pathfinder at all. It's not a game about realism. Even martials are heroic enough they can do unrealistic things. Whether that's small characters taking on medium sized ones or medium ones fighting giants.

Someone posed the question "why all the small race hate?"

I answered by pointing out that it not hate, necessarily, but people having trouble suspending their disbelief with respect to something with which they have direct personal experience (ever wrestle with your six-year-old nephew?). On the other hand, not many people have direct personal experience wrestling with a giant or a dragon, and therefore probably don't have that same trouble with suspension of disbelief.

Your response to that is to say that Pathfinder is a fantasy game, and that if you can't suspend your disbelief in this particular case, then you shouldn't play at all?

Sorry, but that's bunk. Exclusionary bunk, to boot. >:(

I can kind of see the difference between personal experience of dealing with adult wrestling a toddler and no personal experience of fighting giants or dragons. I could point out that a halfling isn't a toddler, despite a similar size - being actual adults and thus smarter, more cunning, better trained, with fully developed coordination and musculature, but that's sort of beside the point.

The post I was actually replying to said "Yup. A medium creature fighting a giant in melee would be pretty much f#@#%d." That's just not Pathfinder. I mean, you'd be right in reality, but not in Pathfinder. Not in much heroic fiction. If that's what you want, Pathfinder might not be for you, because it doesn't give a game where a medium creature fighting a giant in melee is pretty much f++!ed.

Obviously smaller than medium creatures have more powerful muscle fibers proportional to their weight (like chimpanzees), while creatures larger than medium have weaker muscle fibers.

This is also a game where women and men have the same strength range, just roll with it. Different species having better/worse than human male muscle efficiency should get more willing suspension of disbelief than the man/woman thing because one of them is made up and has less grounding in reality.

[Quark Blast]

Plausible Pseudonym wrote:

This is also a game where women and men have the same strength range, just roll with it. Different species having better/worse than human male muscle efficiency should get more willing suspension of disbelief than the man/woman thing because one of them is made up and has less grounding in reality.

It's actually worse than you indicate.

In 3.PF all species are the same except the fluff. Leveling the playing field and all that.

[Deadmanwalking]

Mechanical Pear wrote:

What book is this Orang Pendak in?

Bestiary 5. They can thus also be found here.

Atarlost wrote:

There are other issues. Armor is halved for tiny or smaller creatures. A character who has no reach or reach only from lunge and his size bonuses to AC turned into size penalties to CMD is as vulnerable to combat maneuvers from any enemy capable of them as a normal character would be to foes moderately specialized in them. Lunge is particularly damaging in this respect since it gives an AC penalty that gets applied to CMD that is already a weakness.

Once again, I was mostly kidding. People relying on armor for AC (which isn't everyone by any means) likely shouldn't consider Reduce Person a viable option. Obviously.

Atarlost wrote:

Not having reach is looking thoroughly insurmountable to me. Long Arm is a personal spell. Bloodragers aren't suited for dex builds and magi have other uses for their first level spells. Summoners don't have the combat boosts to be really effective combatants in the first place.

I disagree. For one thing, UMD is Cha based and a Wand of Longarm is 750 gp. And getting reach is only one possible way to solve the problem (ridiculous Acrobatics or Mobility probably work just as well, usually).

Atarlost wrote:

I'm really not seeing much reason to not continue to dismiss risky striker as not merely not optimal but not really viable in any game where many of the significant enemies are medium or smaller.

It's one Feat. Even if you only get to use it half the time, it's probably worth taking most times. And at high levels you absolutely get to use it at least half the time, because the vast majority of high CR monsters in the Bestiaries are Large or larger. NPCs will mostly be Medium...but most games and GMs use a fair amount of Bestiary stuff.

Even at mid levels, a lot of foes are pretty big.

Atarlost wrote:

There might be one or two very gimmicky alchemist or investigator builds that makes it work, but as many hoops as need jumping through and as much as it ruins the characters defenses between the halved armor bonus and risky striker's own penalty and requires both reduce person and long arm extracts to be consumed before each fight against a medium foe I'm really not seeing much good from it.

Well, an Investigator or Alchemists can get a Discovery and combine those two into one Extract, thus helping the action economy. But again, I wasn't really serious about Reduce Person usually being a good plan. I was mostly joking.

Atarlost wrote:

If there's a dex bloodrager that hasn't made it to the SRD that would be pretty good but that still wouldn't make it not a useful patch for any non-bloodrager halflings being bad at melee.

There is, actually. Urban Bloodrager is a thing.

[thejeff]

Quark Blast wrote:

Plausible Pseudonym wrote:

This is also a game where women and men have the same strength range, just roll with it. Different species having better/worse than human male muscle efficiency should get more willing suspension of disbelief than the man/woman thing because one of them is made up and has less grounding in reality.

It's actually worse than you indicate.

In 3.PF all species are the same except the fluff. Leveling the playing field and all that.

Except for the fluff and the mechanical differences, right?

I mean that's what we're talking about here. It's not just fluff that halflings have a strength penalty and a bunch of mechanical changes from being small.

[Quark Blast]

thejeff wrote:

Quark Blast wrote:

Plausible Pseudonym wrote:

This is also a game where women and men have the same strength range, just roll with it. Different species having better/worse than human male muscle efficiency should get more willing suspension of disbelief than the man/woman thing because one of them is made up and has less grounding in reality.

It's actually worse than you indicate.

In 3.PF all species are the same except the fluff. Leveling the playing field and all that.

Except for the fluff and the mechanical differences, right?

I mean that's what we're talking about here. It's not just fluff that halflings have a strength penalty and a bunch of mechanical changes from being small.

As I said on another thread, making a similar point:

Kobolds are just shorter than average, scaly, weightlifting challenged, somewhat sickly, shifty little trap-making humans (with tails).

Point being that all the (mechanical) fluff is really just a way to balance all the races to be PCs.

So to bring it into this thread expressly. We've already suspended that sort of belief once we commit to playing 3.PF at all.

Edit for clarification
Verisimilitude among PC races is not a thing. Has never been a thing. Nor was it ever intended to be a thing.

[KahnyaGnorc]

Ravingdork wrote:

After having played a half dozen or so halfling martial characters, I can certainly vouch for the efficacy of their abilities. The +1 attack and AC make a big difference, especially when stacked with other halfling only abilities.

There are plenty of options out there that help with their damage output (not that you need them since your DPR will actually be higher than your big brothers due to your higher accuracy). However, if you do feel you need to do more damage anyways, things like the fighter's Focused Weapon advanced weapon training means you could wield a small dagger and eventually do more base damage than even a greatsword!

Higher accuracy? +1 Attack and -2 Strength kind of balance each other out. Weapon Finesse for higher accuracy from Dex severely limits damage output overall (smaller damage die, especially with Enlarge Person, Impact, or other similar size increases; weaker -Atk/+Dmg due to not 2h-ing for Power Attack; etc.)

I have played alongside halfling meleers, and I have nothing against people playing them, but the only time they met my character in damage output is when smiting. Now, granted, my character was a half-giant psychic warrior with augmented expansion and Impact on her large weapon (large when she was medium sized). So, I had a few advantages on her character.

[bugleyman]

D@rK-SePHiRoTH- wrote:

Pathfinder is not simply a fantasy game. Pathfinder is its own genre of fantasy.

IF you do not like the way Pathfinder consciously chooses to portray narrative lore through game mechanics

THEN you don't like the identity of the product

If that's a good reason to play something else, it's up to you

Except I never expressed a preference; I simply offered a plausible reason why people might have trouble with small melee characters.

*sigh*

Sometimes I can't stand gamers.

[Azten]

Ravingdork wrote:

Azten wrote:

My only real problem with Small races? Equipment. Adventures almost never have Small-sized weapons or armor that you can find. Find a Flametongue you'd just love to have for your pyromaniac Gnome, or a Shatterspike for you Rovagug worshipping Wayang? Too bad, it's medium. Here's a huge penalty.

What's that? Adamantine armor with really cool special abilities? Sucks to be Small, because, guess what? It's Medium and you can't even wear it.

There are spells for that. (There are spells for everything.)

It really bugs me that the calipers aren't a focus, and I don't know why.

[Mark Carlson 255]

One thing I think also to state and is said above is that PF is a high fantasy game and in any real life type situation it would be different. If you try to use PF to more accurately represent small races then you may decide to modify the damage even more than the core rules do.

But the reverse also is true, just because PF does not significantly penalize small creatures do not expect real life to behave like the PF rule set. (This is a problem I have seen on another forum in that people use PF as why other systems should not penalize small races in combat)

MDC