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Just started prepping this for GenCon and came across a few questions:
The Crowd Rules in sections B and D (first time I've seen them used, BTW!):
1. The CRB says that "If crowds see something obviously dangerous, they’ll move away at 30 feet per round at initiative count 0." However the scenario describes the individuals in the crowd (especially in Part B) as taking a variety of actions including fleeing and falling to their knees. What does this mean for the crowd as a whole? Does it effectively mean it stays in place unless directed by a PC?
2. What effect does reducing a crowd's size (due to perishing crowd members) have? Does it just decrease the space it takes up or does it also change the DCs?
3. Lyheri might offer to sell the PCs a partially charged holy staff at a reduced price (subject to some conditions) however it appears on the Chronicle Sheet at full price. Does this mean the PCs must buy the staff before the end of the scenario if they want to get it at the reduced price?
4. There's no mention of what the PCs must do to earn the first boon on the chronicle sheet. Is it won/lost based solely on the primary success condition?
5. I want to make sure I understand how the Spoils of the Siege boon works.
a. As long as at least one player has a Spoils of the Siege (Shohiraj) boon, Kitio gets to use the special item during the scenario. The Spoils boon doesn't have to be on the character playing the scenario, someone just has to have it on any of their characters.
b. At the successful conclusion of the scenario, any players who have the Spoils of the Siege (Shohiraj) boon can buy the item from the chronicle. Is this only true if the Spoils boon is on the character who played Ageless Ambitions, or can the player have the Spoils boon on any character? And any players that do not have a Spoils of the Siege (Shohiraj) boon have the item crossed off this chronicle, correct?
2. The map on page 19 should be a map of area "D", not "A" as indicated in the title.
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I can't answer the other questions right now, but I can answer #5.
If any player at the table has Spoils of the Siege (Shohiraj), even if it's on a different character than the one than they are currently playing, Kitio gets the cool googles during the adventure. At the end of the adventure, anyone who has the Spoils of the Siege (Shohiraj) boon on any of their characters (including characters not playing the scenario) gets the boon Kitio's Foe. It is crossed out for everyone else.
Pathfinder Society Lead Developer
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1) It means that as a whole, the crowd does not kove unless the PCs intervene. Should the Lyheri fall, they might stop assuming that divine/heroic intervention is imminent.
2) Without confirming the exact numbers, I recall making the numbers as though there wer roughly 2–2.5 people per square. That is to say, a crowd starts Huge with ~25 people, drops to Large once there are about 10, and to Medium once just a few remain.
3) It appears at full price on the Chronicle sheet because partially charge staves at a reduced price is misleading due to how easy it is to recharge staves. The reduced price text is more for those running scenarios as home games, but I would also allow a PC to purchase the staff at the reduced price for use during the adventure while advising that the PC would need to pay the difference to keep it long-term.
4) I'm on the ground at Indianapolis already, so I'll need to download things and check in a bit. Aha, here we go. Yes everyone who succeeds at the primary success condition shoukd get that Thuvian Alchemy boon.
5) Your understanding of 5a is right. For 5b, only the PC that played #7–28 gains access to the unique item. The character that earned Spoils of the Siege does not gain anything beyond allowing the first character to have this special opportunity. If they happen to be the same character, great. Those who do not have Spoils of the Siege (Shohiraj) cannot access this item, even if it appeared because someone else had the boon.
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Thanks, John
A couple of callouts on the encounter with Kitio for anyone GMing this scenario:
1) His favored terrain (Urban) is not calculated in his statblock. That gives him a +2 to initiative, stealth, perception, survival, and knowledge(geography).
2) At high tier his saving throws are 2 too high. The saving throws are calculated as if he was receiving +3 resistance bonus from his slayer's robe. That only applies vs. Studied Targets. Otherwise it's only +1. So the printed values of his saving throws are correct for targets he has studied, but should be two lower for non-studied targets.
Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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@John thank your for the answers you have already given
@James. Thank you for the prep, it's as always very much appreciated.
Just a note, the Agenda Agent at location D is not actually placed on the map. Considering his tactics and fighting style, I assume that he just hides in the crowd before combat starts and then tries to follow his tactics (flanking, which is pretty necessary considering his build).
Edit: Found another slight error, Kito is listed as having the deadly sniper ability (increased sneak attack damage when within 30 ft) but the ability is actually called deadly range in the archetype.
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Edit: Found another slight error, Kito is listed as having the deadly sniper ability (increased sneak attack damage when within 30 ft) but the ability is actually called deadly range in the archetype.
Hmmm, in the PRD it's called deadly sniper. Where do you see it called "Deadly Range?"
Also bear in mind that this ability will not actually be used unless the PCs take things ludicrously off script.
Deadly Sniper (Ex): At 2nd level, when the sniper makes an attack against a target who is within his weapon's first range increment and completely unaware of his presence, that attack ignores the 30 foot range limit on ranged sneak attacks, and if it is a sneak attack, he adds his sniper level as a bonus on his sneak attack damage roll. After this first attack, the target is aware of the sniper's presence.
After his first attack (which is not against a PC) they will all be aware that there is a sniper in the area.
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On the issue of the staff, the scenario says that she gives it to the PC's (if they qualify) and asks them to use it to defeat whatever evil is plaguing the city but to return it afterwards. Should I take it we just ignore entirely the reference to half price?
3) It appears at full price on the Chronicle sheet because partially charge staves at a reduced price is misleading due to how easy it is to recharge staves. The reduced price text is more for those running scenarios as home games, but I would also allow a PC to purchase the staff at the reduced price for use during the adventure while advising that the PC would need to pay the difference to keep it long-term.
You could think of it as an installment plan where the PCs don't have to pay the full price until after the scenario. But honestly there's no real benefit to doing that since you get to use it for free anyway during the scenario. I plan to ignore it unless for some reason a PC asks to buy it.
I am in the middle of prepping this and am unsure about one thing. How does attacking crowds actually work? Nothing in the scenario (wit one exception) has any form of area affect attack, are we expecting CR9-12 enemies to spend their time individually attacking pig farmers?
Yes. The entire point is to cause terror and mayhem, something the Divs enjoy just as much as the plotters want it to happen. Kitio wants word of this to get out. So the goal isn't "kill everyone as quickly as possible," it's "kill a lot of them and scare the rest." They make individual attacks against a single citizen (Though if they are in position some may be able to make multiple attacks as part of a full-attack. They might be able to take out more than one crowd member a round.)
Depending on the players at your table you may choose to describe this in detail. Like what happens in a monster movie when the monster catches up to a fleeing crowd and seizes one in the rear. Just make sure it's appropriate for the players.
The actual scenario text:
For the purpose of this encounter, a creature can attack a crowd by resolving its attack against an individual citizen’s statistics, as given below. When resolving area effects, treat each square as containing two citizens, and roll a single saving throw for all affected citizens against a given effect.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Edit: Found another slight error, Kito is listed as having the deadly sniper ability (increased sneak attack damage when within 30 ft) but the ability is actually called deadly range in the archetype.Hmmm, in the PRD it's called deadly sniper. Where do you see it called "Deadly Range?"
Also bear in mind that this ability will not actually be used unless the PCs take things ludicrously off script.
Deadly Sniper (Ex): At 2nd level, when the sniper makes an attack against a target who is within his weapon's first range increment and completely unaware of his presence, that attack ignores the 30 foot range limit on ranged sneak attacks, and if it is a sneak attack, he adds his sniper level as a bonus on his sneak attack damage roll. After this first attack, the target is aware of the sniper's presence.After his first attack (which is not against a PC) they will all be aware that there is a sniper in the area.
No just the last straw for me using a certain site, it's convenient für the search option but this was just once too often that they just changed something for no apparent reason.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/slayer/archetypes/paizo---sl ayer-archetypes/sniper
And yeah it's relatively unlikely that the PCs will have a chance to spot the sniper before he initiates combat, but considering the level range and the options PCs have at that level its not unthinkable.
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A couple of callouts on the encounter with Kitio for anyone GMing this scenario:
1) His favored terrain (Urban) is not calculated in his statblock. That gives him a +2 to initiative, stealth, perception, survival, and knowledge(geography).
2) At high tier his saving throws are 2 too high. The saving throws are calculated as if he was receiving +3 resistance bonus from his slayer's robe. That only applies vs. Studied Targets. Otherwise it's only +1. So the printed values of his saving throws are correct for targets he has studied, but should be two lower for non-studied targets.
I forgot to mention that in addition to attack and damage rolls his Studied Target ability also gives him a +3 to bluff, knowledge, perception, sense motive, survival, disguise, intimidate, and stealth checks against his studied targets.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Ran the slot 0 recently and made a huge post... but the forum at it ^^
So just the most relevant question first:
If you save the cleric, her followers are supposed to support the final encounter with additional temporary hit points, but I could find no other mention of the word temporary in the scenario that fit the situation.
I might post a full report of the slot 0 later.
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Edit: During the slot 0 it became quite apparent, that discovering the snipers direction is quite relevant. After the slot we did some research and found this text on page 563 of the CRB. Total Concealment isn't the same as invisiblity but reasonably close:
If an invisible creature strikes a character, the character
struck knows the location of the creature that struck him
(until, of course, the invisible creature moves). The only
exception is if the invisible creature has a reach greater
than 5 feet. In this case, the struck character knows the
general location of the creature but has not pinpointed the
exact location
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I ended up running this 4 times at GenCon. All at high tier. This scenario is tough, tough, tough. Tough but fair. A really good chance to show off what intelligent enemies are capable of. I didn't have any PCs die but I did have many, many uses of breath of life, several characters unconscious from ability damage, and one dead animal companion. Nothing really tricky to point out, just a few suggestions and one point up for debate.
Overall: several groups were coming up with elaborate investigative plots as soon as I gave them the briefing from Marcos and Glorianna. When I realized they were going to spend quite a while planning how to explore Aspenthar, I treated it as if they were having this discussion in front of M&G and had her break in to stress that stopping the attacks was the critical task. Not an issue if you have unlimited time, but these combats can take a long time.
Prison: every group tried the "knock on the door" strategy (with variations) and all were lead into ambushes. Depending on how you want to play this, this can be very deadly. Since I had pretty tough groups, I had one rogue let them into the antechamber, then go "check with the lieutenant" for a couple of minutes. This gave me some pretty nasty prep time. I put two rogues in the courtyard and the lieutenant in the armory. The escort started the surprise round by leading the party into the corridor where he opened the door to the armory where the lieutenant was waiting to Vital Strike with his greatsword. The caster was behind two (locked) grated doors back by the cells. This is probably the most deadly configuration you can put them in that isn't completely unfair. I don't recommend doing it to new or underpowered characters.
Ruins: pretty straightforward. Don't forget to explain what the crowd is doing and how to control them. I didn't give DCs but did tell the players that a diplomacy check would be slightly more likely than intimidate to work on an already terrified crowd. Stinking cloud is what made this fight hard.
Guards: never ran it. This is a long scenario. I really recommend you wait until after B and C to see what your time is like.
Palace: I did the "arrow direction" thing like Sebastien suggested for the first run. But it made the fight almost trivially easy. Simple metagame triangulation. One glitterdust in "about that area" and the fight is over. After that first runthrough I started telling the players that in the chaos and confusion and twisting around the perception check was the only way to figure out direction. It made it much more challenging. Again, use your discretion when it comes to players of less system skill (or new players with pregens) but I don't think you should give the players hints.
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Thanks for running this Kevin! I very much enjoyed playing with you. My new set of first aid gloves will be stylized as a catcher's mitt.
The prison setup was terrifying. Especially when we decided to split the party (never split the party!). Thank goodness for the sunder specialist breaking down doors.
Regarding the sniper in the palace, not knowing the sniper's direction was pretty scary. I think it works while the divs are still in combat. Once they have been dealt with, I think it would be appropriate to give a clue.
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Kevin, your table was one of the most brutal ones I've ever been a part of. This pushed the limits of my Kineticist and I'm glad I played him. I need to make a siren when the Telekinesis Ambulance Service is being used.
Extracting bodies out of a combat to get res'd by First Aid Gloves was extremely useful. I've done that 3 times now. Dorian, you were awesome with those!
So... much... burn...
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The way I handled the sniper on low tier was telling them a very general direction for source of the shots. The party had set up one one side of the presentation, and he sniper I put as far as I could and just said it came from the other side of the buildings. It helped them start searching.
Even with that I poisoned 1 wizard to paralysis, dropped the cleric, and outright killed the alchemist.
I thought they were going to have more trouble since they had been tossing a lot of glitter dust around earlier and I started using the prison rogues to stealth to bait more. I'm not certain I used parting shot correctly since the stealth skill is a bit weird, but after they found him the first time I had him withdraw, take the shot, then stealth as he kept moving to get hem crowding the wrong area and using a glitter dust on it.
I think if you played the npc more viciously you could not fire every round, and spend 1 or 2 rounds moving between unloading to drop someone. But I would not, since he would be so hard to find I think he could easily drop a party.
Venture-Captain, Germany—Rhein Main South
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Prepping this scenario for a gameday on saturday and I have two questions:
How many temporary HPs do you get for saving the cleric?
Is it intended, that the secondary sucess/faction mission gets harder by the 4 Player adjustment? (One big attacker aganinst potentially two more insect plagues)
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Prepping this scenario for a gameday on saturday and I have two questions:
How many temporary HPs do you get for saving the cleric?
Still don't know on this one...
Is it intended, that the secondary sucess/faction mission gets harder by the 4 Player adjustment? (One big attacker aganinst potentially two more insect plagues)
I think it does get harder to achieve the secondary/faction success, but it's not quite as bad as it could be. The scenario does not intend for the additional divs to cast insect plague.
These pairakas favor melee attacks, distracting combatants while Kitio Aspenthi fires arrows from hiding.
They make melee attacks against the civilians, which can still result in a lot of deaths if the PCs don't engage them quickly. But their attacks can't drop a civilian in one hit unless they crit (1d6+3 and no Power Attack). So long as the PCs engage all of them within one round they should be OK. But it's harder to engage 3 of them with 4 PCs.
I did find that it was VERY hard to achieve the success condition at the high tier (6-player). In encounter B the two divs who attack the crowd will take one out each on the first round. On average one of the four insect plague rolls will be 10 or higher and will drop two squares of mob group unconscious (52% chance) and that's 4 strikes right there. If the Shira wins initiative he will take out 3 on his turn. So that's a total of 9. All it takes is for one of them to get a full-round attack on a crowd and you're up to more than 10 unconscious. I really suggest you not take AoOs on a fleeing crowd, that's just unfair and basically makes it a foregone conclusion.
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Question on the ghawwas div: In its statblock, the spear attack is listed as dealing poison. Does this apply to only their first attack, or to all spear attacks they make? In Special Abilities it only mentions poison on the sting.
I've run this once so far, playing high subtier with 7 players. Like the others above, my group knocked on the prison door and were led into an ambush, though there were enough PCs that they were able to overwhelm the enemy without too much difficulty.
For the encounter in the ruins, the ghawwases did pretty significant damage to a few PCs, and managed to kill a couple of crowd members before the commonfolk got out of their reach. They engaged the ghawwas attacking the priest very quickly, keeping her alive but causing a PC to drop, only spared by breath of life.
In the final encounter I provided general directions the sniping was coming from, and did allow the monsters to make attacks of opportunity on the fleeing crowds (nasty with Combat Reflexes). Despite that, they ended up with only 7 dead cityfolk by the end of the scenario, so passed the second victory condition. We did run out of time in the final encounter, but when I called it they had managed to kill pretty much all the foes except Khitio, and with seven PCs available to hunt him down, I knew he'd maybe get one or two more rounds of sniping, tops, before they found him.
I do like the strategic choice of the final battle in particular: do you hunt down the sniper, leaving the crowd to fend for themselves, or do you protect the people and get them out of danger, leaving few resources to defend against sniping?
I'll be running it again tomorrow; I'll be curious to see how the 2nd group does.
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Prepping to run this tonight and I think I've found an error in the stat block of Kitio - I think he is missing a Slayer Talent at both tiers (whatever he takes with his Extra Slayer Talent feat).
(Unless there is a typo/errata for the Sniper archetype and the level 2 archetype ability is in place of the level 2 Slayer Talent? At least per the PRD however that doesn't appear to be the case - but perhaps the author thought it was?
The consensus from discussions I had at GenCon seems to be that the archetype should replace the slayer talent at 2nd level. I don't know if we'll see anything official before the third printing, though.
As for what to do the answer is "nothing." Adding any ability would change the way the encounter is balanced. And I can say from 4 tables of experience that he is a BEAST as built.
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As for what to do the answer is "nothing." Adding any ability would change the way the encounter is balanced. And I can say from 4 tables of experience that he is a BEAST as built.I would largely disagree with this. He is only really very effective while he can remain hidden, which is extremely difficult to do. His stealth isn't actually that high when you take into account the sniping penalty.
With the -10 penalty his stealth at the high tier is +18 (+21 vs. studied targets). Then you start adding distance penalties...
I found I was having to give him improved cover to give him any chance at all. As soon as anyone hits about 50' elevation then he pretty much loses any cover or concealment and is automatically spotted. As per ultimate intrigue his blur potion does not allow him to stealth.
The first time I ran it the group took a while to locate him so he got to make a fair few attacks but his damage isn't that great and can easily be shut off in many different ways at this level. The second time some summoned bralani azata's found him in no time flat with their 100' fly speeds.
Some of this may be down to how you (and I, and others) interpret the stealth rules differently. My understanding is that he makes a stealth check during *his* movement and everyone gets a free perception check at that point. If a character (or azata) moves to a point where they have clear line of sight (LOS) to him, they don't automatically see him. They have to make a perception check as a move action. But on his next turn he won't be able to stealth since he's being observed. At that point the creatures who he does not have cover from see him automatically. Kind of a way of abstracting the fact that all 6 seconds of a round are supposedly somewhat simultaneous. Also his Bluff isn't terrible (especially against studied targets), so it may be worth saying "look, air!" then moving 15-25' to cover and trying to stealth again.
Damage-wise, yeah he doesn't do insane amounts. But he does average about 55 a round against a studied target.
Overall he strikes me as a rather disappointing "leader" of the agenda. On both runs the battle in the desert has been the most dangerous (once low tier, once high with 4p adjustment). Both times the prison has also caused problems despite looking like it should be pretty easy.
Ah. I ran it at high tier every time. Only once with the four-player adjustment. That Shira Div is a major distractor in six-player. 3 attacks at +17 for 1d8+17 damage. With difficult DR and a tricky concealment defense. I managed to land two poisoned arrows (failed saves) in the first round quite a few times, resulting in spellcasters and archers in real danger of getting paralyzed due to strength loss. Also I had what I would consider "typical" tables. Some strong builds (Zen archers, life oracles, paladins, even a chained summoner) but some more social or generalist characters each time as well.
He's much more difficult in high tier as he has a lot more tricks up his sleeve. His potion of fly can get him up to the top of the palace (60' high) in one move if he started on the east side of the map. And don't forget that his tactics include relying on his mobility. It's entirely possible that he'll come down off the roof and hide in an alley or under the stairs, forgoing his attack for that round if he sees people or things converging on him.
Once he's found for good, it's likely over for him. Depending on time - and on how much the players would enjoy it - I considered going "off-map" and turning it into a Bourne Ultimatum-style fight across the rooftops of Aspenthar. Never had the time though.
No, I don't consider that 'modifying the scenario.' Kitio avoids reckless or flashy last stands. He's not going to run away, but he's definitely going to move to positions more suited to his fighting style. Just because there's only two squares of roof showing, that doesn't mean he's going to limit himself to them.
Having said all that:
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One thing I did when they had basically found him for good was have him run into the crowd and stealth. It threw them off for a couple rounds because they were looking for him on the rooftops, and it provides great cover, and forces them to control how they attack Kitio, so no blanketing an area with AoE to try and find him.
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Out of the three times I ran this at Gencon, I had one party that had someone with a large enough perception score to spot Kitio and act in a surprise round. That fight didn't last too long and was handily won by the PC's (was 10-11). The second time Kitio almost killed someone before he blew his stealth roll and was chased down (subtier 7-8).
The final time I ran was in subtier 10-11, Kitio dropped a ranged Inquisitor from full to almost dead in the first round and rolled in the high 30's for his stealth, dropped the bard that was trying to heal the Inquisitor to just shy of neg con on the second round and champed another stealth roll, a plucky sorc that tryed to get lucky by dropping AoE's on random rooftops and got murdered on the third round before K finally blew a stealth roll. The sorc got BoL'd, then shot to death again with normal arrows, and BoL'd again. By that time, the rest of the party had managed to deal with the Pairaka and the Shira then dispatched K without much more trouble.
My experiences with the final fight were more like Kevin's than Andrew's.
The main danger the Ghawwas Divs posed in the earlier encounter was that they were holding spears. The x3 crit bagged me when I played, and I got someone else with a crit when I was running.
Suede, that is an awesome idea for the final fight. If I get to run this a fourth time I'm totally using that.
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I am not sure how you are dropping people in a round? He will generally not be within 30' on top of the buildings so he loses the bonus damage on his sneak attack. He also cannot make full attacks while sniping. The best he gets is 2 shots with master sniper.The final time I ran was in subtier 10-11, Kitio dropped a ranged Inquisitor from full to almost dead in the first round and rolled in the high 30's for his stealth, dropped the bard that was trying to heal the Inquisitor to just shy of neg con on the second round and champed another stealth roll, a plucky sorc that tryed to get lucky by dropping AoE's on random rooftops and got murdered on the third round before K finally blew a stealth roll. The sorc got BoL'd, then shot to death again with normal arrows, and BoL'd again. By that time, the rest of the party had managed to deal with the Pairaka and the Shira then dispatched K without much more trouble.
If he has the supercool goggles his damage jumps up to an average of around 70 a round (for 3 rounds). That's enough to drop a level 9 or 10 d8 HD class with a Con of 10 or 12. Which a ranged attacker or caster might think is enough. (Not trying to start a debate about the "right" way to build a character.) For a d6 class it's worse. Even without the cool goggles his maximum is 82, assuming he doesn't crit.
Personally I spent the first 1-2 rounds each time splitting attacks and putting poison arrows into all the bow-wielders and people wearing robes before deciding who the prime target was based on their actions. Which is the main reason I didn't kill anyone; he was trying to knock enough people out of commission to win the whole fight instead of just killing one or two. And the strategy worked, too. His first round targets were not a factor for 1 or 2 rounds as they sought out antitoxins and neutralize/delay poison (if it was available, a couple of them went all the way to 0 strength). That gave him enough time to focus on the next most critical target. He dropped that target at least 3 of the 4 times. Oh, those breaths of life...
Anyway, as usual the PCs are supposed to win. But for an average group he can be a real challenge and maybe result in a couple of deaths.
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If he has the supercool goggles his damage jumps up to an average of around 70 a round (for 3 rounds).I think your numbers are rather off. Where he starts is going to be more than 30' away from pretty much any PC. If he is sniping, and he must to do anything useful then he gets:
Spoiler:1d8+6 +4d6 sneak +3 studied target for an average of about 28 per shot if he hits and he only gets to make two shots and still snipe. If he is within 30' he gets to add an extra 9 per shot. If he has the special goggles then he gets to add +8 for 3 rounds.
This all assumes the PC's don't do something to shut him down like cast obscuring mist.That isn't much of a challenge for a group of level 10-11 characters.
I'm not sure where you are getting the "extra 9 within 30'" from but other than that your math agrees with mine.
1d8+6 +4d6 +3 + 8 averages to 35.5. So around 70 a round on two shots.
As for challenge, I will certainly concede again that not all groups are the same and some will easily handle him. But I will also again stress that there's a lot more than just Kitio to this encounter. One of the things I loved most about this encounter was that for once the PCs didn't have an overwhelming advantage in action economy. Between curing poisons, curing damage, trying to control the crowds, dealing with the Divs, and trying to find a sniper, they had to choose which of those things to neglect for the first few rounds until some of those were under control.
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One thing I did when they had basically found him for good was have him run into the crowd and stealth. It threw them off for a couple rounds because they were looking for him on the rooftops, and it provides great cover, and forces them to control how they attack Kitio, so no blanketing an area with AoE to try and find him.
I just used burning hands - it dropped the crowd so he was left without cover...
... why are you looking at me like that?