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1. Feats
• Weapon Focus applies to groups of weapons, like Simple Light Weapons, Martial Two-Handed, etc.
• Weapon Finesse is removed as a Feat, but is applied to weapons automatically
• Agile Maneuvers is removed, but anyone who uses a Finesse weapon can apply his Dex to CMB
• Power Attack, Piranha Strike and Combat expertise have also been removed. Any Character that has a BAB +1 can use these, as if they had these feats
• Improved Bull Rush/ Drag/ Overrun/ Sunder have been replaced by a single feat called "Power Maneuvers"
• Improved Disarm/ Dirty Trick/ Reposition/ Trip/ Steal have been replaced by a single feat called "Sneaky Maneuvers"
• Point-Blank Shot and Precise Shot are fused into 1 feat
• Slashing Grace, Fencing Grace, Dervish Dancer and any other feat that grants Dex to Damage in melee, is replaced by: "Finesse Mastery" Prereq: Level 3; Dex 15; You may add your Dex Modifier to any damage dealt with a Finesse Weapon.
• Leadership has been scrapped
2. Backgroundskills
Every character gets 2 additional skills per level, which can only be used on the following skills, to use on the characters backgroundstory:
• Appraise
• Craft
• Heal
• Handle Animal
• Linguistics
• Perform
• Profession
• Sleight of Hand
3.Misc
• Any type Rage grants temporary HP
• Wands and potions always grant the average amount of HP
• Automatic bonus progression
• Unchained Summoner replaces Summoner
I know the Dex to damage feat might be controversial, but Paizo has put in so many ways of achieving that over the years, that I don't see a problem adding it. Also I don't to hear any more conveluded "Dervish Dancer" backgroundstories.
So two questions: Does anyone see any loopholes? And does anyone think this devalues Strength to much? And if so, how do I boost Strength a bit?
To add value to strength:
Be strict with encumberence rules.
Perhaps also add in a caveat on finesse weapons that they cannot power attack? As in no "I stab the guy extra hard with my rapier."
To add value to strength:
Be strict with encumberence rules.Perhaps also add in a caveat on finesse weapons that they cannot power attack? As in no "I stab the guy extra hard with my rapier."
I have been quite strict with encumbrance and my players have been avoiding it like the pest.
I like your proposition on power attack, especially as it fits thematically. I usually don't like taking things away, that I grant other players for free, but it feels fitting.
Sounds largely like the World is Square feat tax article.
Sounds largely like the World is Square feat tax article.
Indeed, I borrowed heavily from there, but also from 5e and throw in some unchained.
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Limiting Agile Manoeuvres to finesse weapons is a bad one. If you're giving out for free, just give it out for free. Manoeuvres often don't use weapons at all and high dexterity characters will have finesse weapons anyway because of your other house rules.
Why not use Fighter weapon groups for weapon feats?
Why the dexterity 15 prerequisite on Finesse Mastery? What does it add? What would go wrong if you removed it?
Can I turn off weapon finesse if I don't want it?
sounds like the rules of a game that i want to play!
I will find a way to use Cha instead of Int on my perform (Oratory) for my big dumb stupid Cavalier and inspirer the world!
It will be fun!
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Why are the non-monster identifying knowledge skills excluded from your background skills?
Thanks for the great input!
Limiting Agile Manoeuvres to finesse weapons is a bad one. If you're giving out for free, just give it out for free. Manoeuvres often don't use weapons at all and high dexterity characters will have finesse weapons anyway because of your other house rules.
Good point, I'll change that, because there is no need to tie the feat to a weapon.
Why not use Fighter weapon groups for weapon feats?
I didn't know they were a thing, so thanks for pointing them out!
Why the dexterity 15 prerequisite on Finesse Mastery? What does it add? What would go wrong if you removed it?
Removing the prerequisite wouldn't probably change anything, but the thought behind it was to reserve the feat it for specialists, but now that you mention it I see your point.
Can I turn off weapon finesse if I don't want it?
Yes!
Why are the non-monster identifying knowledge skills excluded from your background skills?
I was hesitant to dish out knowledges as they feel very strong, but I guess including History and Nobility couldn't hurt. I'm hesitant to include Local though, it is to versatile probably to give out for free.
Well, Local is one of the skills that is used to identify enemies, which is why it's not included in the Background Skills list in Unchained.
Any Knowledge that isn't used to identify enemy weaknesses is usually not worth taking outside of flavor/background reasons IMO.
Personally I'd probably favor just combining the functions of less useful skills into other skills, but I do think that the Background Skills system from Unchained works well as written and is minimally invasive.
Well, Local is one of the skills that is used to identify enemies, which is why it's not included in the Background Skills list in Unchained.
Any Knowledge that isn't used to identify enemy weaknesses is usually not worth taking outside of flavor/background reasons IMO.
Personally I'd probably favor just combining the functions of less useful skills into other skills, but I do think that the Background Skills system from Unchained works well as written and is minimally invasive.
Ah yes I forgot, it's used to identify humanoids... But I totally forgot about geography, so yeah I'll add Geography, History and Nobility.
• Power Attack, Piranha Strike and Combat expertise have also been removed. Any Character that has a BAB +1 can use these, as if they had these feats
Deadly Aim should probably be added to this list.
• Slashing Grace, Fencing Grace, Dervish Dancer and any other feat that grants Dex to Damage in melee, is replaced by: "Finesse Mastery" Prereq: Level 3; Dex 15; You may add your Dex Modifier to any damage dealt with a Finesse Weapon.
I did a bunch of spreadsheeting of different dex-to-damage variants a while back. As anyone who has compared it side-by-side with strength-based builds knows it's really not that overpowered, since two-handed weapons retain bigger damage dice in general and can get 1.5x str to damage all without investing a single feat... and that's before we start talking about the miracle-worker weapon trait known as Reach. However, I took things further, I started spreadsheeting progressively more powerful version of dexterity to damage to see at what point it became broken. My conclusion: there is a lot of room to get brazen with dex-to-damage without necessarily breaking it. You do need to be mindful of other stuff breaking in combination with it, but on its own the numbers you get are quite reasonable.
The version I'm currently running at my table allows you to add your Dexterity modifier in addition to your Strength modifier to damage when using a one-handed melee weapon (not necessarily a finesse weapon). Reach weapons of any kind cannot benefit, even if you have the ability to use them one-handed. If your off-hand is not being used in combat (no off-hand weapon or shield) then you gain 1.5x your dexterity modifier, and if you use a one-handed weapon in two hands you still gain 1.5x your strength modifier in addition to 1x your dexterity modifier.
This creates a much more interesting feat overall, one that is potentially desirable to both strength and dexterity-based characters and can create an incentive to balance the two stats. It also averts the problem of marginalizing strength. It scales a bit like CMD so monsters with high all-around physical stats can potentially cause issues with this feat (so GM discretion is advised), but for PC's at a reasonable point buy it doesn't become problematic. I have no doubts that my caution to the wind approach here will be controversial (it frankly scared the s&$% out of me when I bit the bullet and decided to test it) but it's really not that bad. Mind you none of my players are actively trying to break it, but it's been surprisingly smooth so far and hasn't done anything except produce strong and functional characters.
3.Misc• Any type Rage grants temporary HP
• Wands and potions always grant the average amount of HP
• Automatic bonus progression
• Unchained Summoner replaces Summoner
I recommend fractional progression.
I recommend Deadly Agility instead of your "Finesse Mastery" feat. It's the most balanced Dex-to-damage feat. It keeps it out of the hands of classes that shouldn't get it early while also making it easy for martials to get it early.
I am running a 4-year campaign with a mixture of Dex characters, gishes, and Strength characters at 15th level. Dex-to-damage is balanced as long as it never reaps the two-handed weapon benefits that Strength get. The biggest issue I saw in my campaign was that Dex-to-damage is really good for gish classes like the magus because it offsets the MAD that balances the classes and allows them to fight almost as well as a martial class at 1st level. Since Deadly Agility ha s +1 BAB requirement, gishes can't get it right away while martials can (as they should).
I recommend Deadly Agility instead of your "Finesse Mastery" feat. It's the most balanced Dex-to-damage feat. It keeps it out of the hands of classes that shouldn't get it early while also making it easy for martials to get it early.
I am running a 4-year campaign with a mixture of Dex characters, gishes, and Strength characters at 15th level. Dex-to-damage is balanced as long as it never reaps the two-handed weapon benefits that Strength get. The biggest issue I saw in my campaign was that Dex-to-damage is really good for gish classes like the magus because it offsets the MAD that balances the classes and allows them to fight almost as well as a martial class at 1st level. Since Deadly Agility ha s +1 BAB requirement, gishes can't get it right away while martials can (as they should).
I took my inspiration for Finesse Mastery from the unchained Rogue. Changing it to "Deadly agility" would, in my mind at least, undermine the rogue again, because it would mean other martial classes could get it before the rogue. I'll stick with my level 3 prerequisite, but I'll add the two handed caviat to the feat. I agree with you that that should be reserved for strength based characters.
• Power Attack, Piranha Strike and Combat expertise have also been removed. Any Character that has a BAB +1 can use these, as if they had these featsDeadly Aim should probably be added to this list.
I considered that already, but somehow I've always felt that ranged combat is already strong enough and it needed to be kept in check with feat taxes, but maybe giving it out for free will allow martial classes to be more flexible (which is what I'm trying to do anyway). Has anyone experience with reducing ranged combat feat taxes? How did it go?
As for the fractional progression: It looks very complicated, but I might consider it if 2 or more of my players intend to multiclass. But isn't there a more elegant and simple solution to this?
I took my inspiration for Finesse Mastery from the unchained Rogue. Changing it to "Deadly agility" would, in my mind at least, undermine the rogue again, because it would mean other martial classes could get it before the rogue. I'll stick with my level 3 prerequisite, but I'll add the two handed caviat to the feat. I agree with you that that should be reserved for strength based characters.I recommend Deadly Agility instead of your "Finesse Mastery" feat. It's the most balanced Dex-to-damage feat. It keeps it out of the hands of classes that shouldn't get it early while also making it easy for martials to get it early.
I am running a 4-year campaign with a mixture of Dex characters, gishes, and Strength characters at 15th level. Dex-to-damage is balanced as long as it never reaps the two-handed weapon benefits that Strength get. The biggest issue I saw in my campaign was that Dex-to-damage is really good for gish classes like the magus because it offsets the MAD that balances the classes and allows them to fight almost as well as a martial class at 1st level. Since Deadly Agility ha s +1 BAB requirement, gishes can't get it right away while martials can (as they should).
You can make Deadly Agility available while leaving rogue finesse unchanged. Unlike Deadly Agility, rogue finesse allows you to gain damage bonus when two-handing finesse weapons. This was a deliberate benefit of the class feature designed to give rogues a little bit of an edge despite their medium BAB. With Finesse Mastery, it feels pretty silly to make Dex-based martials have a crappy early game in order to protect the rogue.
You can make Deadly Agility available while leaving rogue finesse unchanged. Unlike Deadly Agility, rogue finesse allows you to gain damage bonus when two-handing finesse weapons. This was a deliberate benefit of the class feature designed to give rogues a little bit of an edge despite their medium BAB. With Finesse Mastery, it feels pretty silly to make Dex-based martials have a crappy early game in order to protect the rogue.
I have to disagree with you here, because there are like 3 finesse weapons, which you can wield twohanded, so basically a nonexistant factor.
You can make Deadly Agility available while leaving rogue finesse unchanged. Unlike Deadly Agility, rogue finesse allows you to gain damage bonus when two-handing finesse weapons. This was a deliberate benefit of the class feature designed to give rogues a little bit of an edge despite their medium BAB. With Finesse Mastery, it feels pretty silly to make Dex-based martials have a crappy early game in order to protect the rogue.I have to disagree with you here, because there are like 3 finesse weapons, which you can wield twohanded, so basically a nonexistant factor.
Why does it matter that there's a limited selection of finesse two-handed weapons when you only need one to make it a really useful class feature? Elven curveblade builds are really popular with the unchained rogue. I personally built a two-handed rogue with a katana in a campaign that turned katanas into finesse weapons.
If you're so worried about the rogue getting shafted with Deadly Agility being available, then let rogues get the feat for free at 1st level. Since you given Weapon Finesse for free in your campaign, the unchained rogue's 1st level kind of sucks anyway. I already thought the unchained rogue felt kind of lame at 1st level since other 3/4 BAB classes begin play with spellcasting and way better class features than they do.
You can make Deadly Agility available while leaving rogue finesse unchanged. Unlike Deadly Agility, rogue finesse allows you to gain damage bonus when two-handing finesse weapons. This was a deliberate benefit of the class feature designed to give rogues a little bit of an edge despite their medium BAB. With Finesse Mastery, it feels pretty silly to make Dex-based martials have a crappy early game in order to protect the rogue.I have to disagree with you here, because there are like 3 finesse weapons, which you can wield twohanded, so basically a nonexistant factor.Why does it matter that there's a limited selection of finesse two-handed weapons when you only need one to make it a really useful class feature? Elven curveblade builds are really popular with the unchained rogue. I personally built a two-handed rogue with a katana in a campaign that turned katanas into finesse weapons.
If you're so worried about the rogue getting shafted with Deadly Agility being available, then let rogues get the feat for free at 1st level. Since you given Weapon Finesse for free in your campaign, the unchained rogue's 1st level kind of sucks anyway. I already thought the unchained rogue felt kind of lame at 1st level since other 3/4 BAB classes begin play with spellcasting and way better class features than they do.
Good points, but the whole idea for me to make a Dex to damage feat available to everyone, was to eliminate gimmicky, conveluded builds and look for excuses to use a specific weapon over and over again (see dervish dancer), while making the rules more streamlined and intuitive. This just looks like a loophole to me.
I know that Dex builds will lack damage the first few levels, but they should be able to compensate for that with versatility and mobility. This way I think there will a clear difference in playstyle between Dex and Str, at least for the first few levels.
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Feats: Remember prerequisits. You should have them fulfill the prerequisits to be able to use the feats (and also count as having that feat for other prerequisits), with the exception of Combat Expertise. All-in-all, all these changes only serve to cut the feat cost and doesn't really do anything else (And lowering the feat cost isn't a good thing, you're undermining the Fighter. Should only be done for a few cases, like PA and CE).
I will not answer all your points separately, but I will comment some: Thanks for pointing out the prerequisites, I will have to make it clearer what prerequisites have been scrapped and which haven't been. And yes the feat section is mostly about cutting feats and the intend was to make martial classes more flexible and exciting, while streamlining some aspects. If that hurts the fighter, than honestly I don't care, because I think it's just badly designed and I'm punishing all the other martial classes because of that.
Improved Maneuvers feats: Thanks for pointing this one out, as I haven't honestly thought about it yet.
Point-Blank and Precise Shot: Precise shot is about the most unexciting feat there and is as you said only a tax and not more. Also it makes no sense to me that Point-Blank comes before Precise shot, so not much of a mechanical reason, but rather a gut reason.
Background skills: The unchained background skills introduce new skills, which I wanted to avoid, but essentially it will end up being the background skills, minus the new ones
Rage: As I said I want to make the rules more intuitive and streamlined, so giving my players the choice makes it for them and mostly for me more complicated to keep track.
I'm mostly concerned about Dex-based martials. I don't think it's cool to gimp Dex-based martials at low levels when they already make several fair trade-offs for the build. Even a twinked out character that starts with a 20 Dexterity will do less damage than a fighter with 16 Strength.
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So here is the reworked version. Thanks for all the input, I incorporated many of your suggestions!
1. Feats
• Weapon Focus applies to groups of weapons (See Fighter weapon groups)
• Weapon Finesse is removed as a Feat, but is a weapon propriety
• Agile Maneuvers is removed, PCs may apply their Dex to CMB instead their Str
• Power Attack, Piranha Strike, Combat Expertise and Deadly Aim have been removed. Any Character that has a BAB +1 can use these, as if they had these feats
• Improved Bull Rush/ Drag/ Overrun/ Sunder have been replaced by a single feat called "Power Maneuvers": These Combat Maneuvers don't provoke AoO, in addition, you receive a +2 bonus on checks with these maneuvers.
• Improved Disarm/ Dirty Trick/ Reposition/ Trip/ Steal have been replaced by a single feat called "Sneaky Maneuvers": These Combat Maneuvers don't provoke AoO, in addition, you receive a +2 bonus on checks with these maneuvers.
• Maneuver Mastery (Prerequisite: either Power or Sneaky Maneuvers): Grants a +3 on CMB on any combat maneuver check.
• Point-Blank Shot and Precise Shot are fused into 1 feat
• Slashing Grace, Fencing Grace, Dervish Dancer and any other feat that grants Dex to Damage in melee, is replaced by: "Finesse Mastery" Prereq: Level 3; You may add your Dex Modifier to any damage dealt with a Finesse Weapon. Wielding a finesse weapon two-handed doesn't multiply the damage by 1.5.
• Leadership has been scrapped
• Dervish Dance has been scrapped
2. Backgroundskills
Every character gets 2 additional skills per level, which can only be used on the following skills, to use on the characters backgroundstory:
• Appraise
• Craft
• Heal
• Handle Animal
• Linguistics
• Perform
• Profession
• Sleight of Hand
• Knowledge Geography
• Knowledge History
• Knowledge Nobility
3.Misc
• Any type Rage grants temporary HP
• Wands and potions always grant the average amount of HP
• Automatic bonus progression
• Unchained Summoner replaces Summoner
I'm mostly concerned about Dex-based martials. I don't think it's cool to gimp Dex-based martials at low levels when they already make several fair trade-offs for the build. Even a twinked out character that starts with a 20 Dexterity will do less damage than a fighter with 16 Strength.
I totally understand, but as I said, I think Dex builds offer more flexibility in and out of combat, that's why I don't think they need the damage burst early on.
Personally I go a step further and have Weapons Focus/Training/Spec/ect ... apply to all attacks that character makes.
Reasons:
You're spending a feat for +1 to attack or +2 damage, it's not exactly breaking anything to broaden its use.
A character is going to make the vast majority of attacks with their main weapon anyway.
In situations where a character does use a different weapon for whatever reasons it makes the math easier, which speeds up play a bit.
I would also include Engineering in Background Skills, unless you're running a game with high tech/Robots (which is not the case the vast majority of the time in PF), it's a highly situational skill.
Personally I go a step further and have Weapons Focus/Training/Spec/ect ... apply to all attacks that character makes.
Reasons:
You're spending a feat for +1 to attack or +2 damage, it's not exactly breaking anything to broaden its use.A character is going to make the vast majority of attacks with their main weapon anyway.
In situations where a character does use a different weapon for whatever reasons it makes the math easier, which speeds up play a bit.
I would also include Engineering in Background Skills, unless you're running a game with high tech/Robots (which is not the case the vast majority of the time in PF), it's a highly situational skill.
I'll have to think about Engineering, because my group has played Iron Gods and I plan on revisiting these themes. I won't run a whole campaign centered around Numeria or robots for a while, but oneshots are a option, thar's why I'm hesitant.
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I'm testing out a new idea with Background Skills - mostly because I think having to consult a list to apply the 2 bonus ranks was a little wonky.
As I want all of my PCs to have at least one Knowledge skill and one Job skill, I have them choose one each based on their pre-adventuring background, and will give them a free rank per level in each of these skills. Since these are intimately tied to their background, they automatically advance in tandem with the character.
And so, every character can participate in the Knowledge checks made to figure out stuff prior to or during the adventure, and, every character has something to do during Downtime - even if all they want to do is make some extra cash.
Then again, my game is intended to make skills like History and Nobility more relevant anyway...
I'm testing out a new idea with Background Skills - mostly because I think having to consult a list to apply the 2 bonus ranks was a little wonky.
As I want all of my PCs to have at least one Knowledge skill and one Job skill, I have them choose one each based on their pre-adventuring background, and will give them a free rank per level in each of these skills. Since these are intimately tied to their background, they automatically advance in tandem with the character.
And so, every character can participate in the Knowledge checks made to figure out stuff prior to or during the adventure, and, every character has something to do during Downtime - even if all they want to do is make some extra cash.
Then again, my game is intended to make skills like History and Nobility more relevant anyway...
This sounds actually really interesting and makes a lot of sense! I think I'll present my players both variants and let them decide.