RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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Hey, folks!
I've been playing Pathfinder for years now, but I'm going to be running a D&D 3.5 game for my old gaming group next weekend. I really want to make it feel 3.5ish, not like Pathfinder.
What are the most memorable things about the D&D 3.5 system to you? What seems the most "quintessentially D&D"?
Right now, I'm working on pregen characters with lots of prestige classes and multiclassing. I want there to be undead, because those changed a lot with Pathfinder. Any other suggestions?
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Use monsters that aren't OGL.
Use powerful monsters with few hp, such as pixies.
Use energy drain.
Use spells with Greyhawk names in them, and emphasize those names.
Maybe make monster pregens with level adjustment?
Give spellcasters many ranks in Concentration.
Aaron pretty much beat me to the punch. I was going to suggest most of those things.
Hey, folks!
I've been playing Pathfinder for years now, but I'm going to be running a D&D 3.5 game for my old gaming group next weekend. I really want to make it feel 3.5ish, not like Pathfinder.
What are the most memorable things about the D&D 3.5 system to you? What seems the most "quintessentially D&D"?
Right now, I'm working on pregen characters with lots of prestige classes and multiclassing. I want there to be undead, because those changed a lot with Pathfinder. Any other suggestions?
The most quintessential 3.5 thing? A never ending monthly series of broken player splatbooks whose quality was extremely variable. That and you had to dip two levels into classes instead of 3.0's one, that was a good side about it.
Monkey Grip! Stack stuff to get the barbarian or fighter the most absurdly large weapon possible.
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3.5 but not Pathfinder things....
• Specific settings or jumping between settings. Jumping from Greyhawk to Faerûn to Dragonlance to Sigil/Planescape
• Tome of Battle...learn to love it
• allow/utilize lots of crafting items but make use you make them use the XP cost
• Power Attack is WAAAY better in 3.5, utilize it! As in give monsters/allow players Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush and Shock Trooper (complete warrior) and maybe Pounce to get a full-attack with full power attack AND not take any penalties to-hit.
• Divine Meta-magic (complete divine)!!! Probably the single-best feat for any cleric in 3.5, especially combined with Quicken Spell, Persistent Spell, and nightsticks (Libris Mortis).
• Got to have at least a few monsters with Grapple and watch as the players squirm under the terrible, convoluted grappling rules.
• Accept that Prestige Classes are often, but not always, more powerful and plain ol' better than base classes. Supplements really help in this regards, especially Complete Champion, Complete Mage, and a handful of other splats. Couple that come to mind: Planar Shepard (Eberron setting), Abjurant Champion (Complete Mage), Frenzied Berserker, and just look up Cheater Of Mystra.
• Theere's going to be less healing. Clerics don't have the easy ability to heal all their allies with Channeling that PF Clerics/Paladins do. Might want to make sure PCs know that and be sure to grab things wands of Cure Light Wounds or wand of lesser vigor.
• Oh, combat maneuver/tactical feats were pretty fun. Tripping was one of the biggest ways a Fighter could actually be good in 3.5. Not to mention allowed them to trip, attack, Attack of Opportunity to trip and attack, and things like Stand Still (you don't move anywhere!) and Knock Down (I'll do 10 damage, free trip, attack).
• Reserve Feats (complete Mage and Champion) were pretty cool, especially for vancian-style classes.
• ALL sorts of different kinds of Familiars AND the extreme penalty casters faced when their familiar dies.
That's all I can really think of at the present moment.
3.5 but not Pathfinder things....
• Specific settings or jumping between settings. Jumping from Greyhawk to Faerûn to Dragonlance to Sigil/Planescape
...
This aspect was already the case in AD&D 2nd Edition way before D&D 3.5, i.e. it is not really a quintessential thing of one ruleset.
-Polymorphing/wildshaping shenanigans
-psionics (provided you don't use Dreamscarred Press' stuff in PF)
-deathless/nonevil aligned undead
-losing level upon death/XP determined by level
3.5 but not Pathfinder things....
• Specific settings or jumping between settings. Jumping from Greyhawk to Faerûn to Dragonlance to Sigil/Planescape
...This aspect was already the case in AD&D 2nd Edition way before D&D 3.5, i.e. it is not really a quintessential thing of one ruleset.
True, it's more of a D&D thing than a specific system but highlighting different settings and places isn't a Pathfinder thing.
3.5 but not Pathfinder things....
• Divine Meta-magic (complete divine)!!! Probably the single-best feat for any cleric in 3.5, especially combined with Quicken Spell, Persistent Spell, and nightsticks (Libris Mortis).
This, oh my god this, how do clerics survive without this now!!
This, oh my god this, how do clerics survive without this now!!3.5 but not Pathfinder things....
• Divine Meta-magic (complete divine)!!! Probably the single-best feat for any cleric in 3.5, especially combined with Quicken Spell, Persistent Spell, and nightsticks (Libris Mortis).
They rely on their full spellcasting, pool of channeling goodness and healing, and better spells most likely. Pathfinder Clerics may not be the BEST class in PF but they're certainly no slouch and pretty much better than the vast majority of classes we currently have.
Cleric's are fine in pathfinder, the channeling stuff is cool...but given my choice I'd take the old turn undead checks(which were useless) and sell them bad boys for quickens everyday of the week.
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3.5 but not Pathfinder things
• Tome of Battle...learn to love it
Tome of Battle was the most 4th edition thing about 3.5. Which makes it the least 3.5 thing about 3.5.
Lots and lots of multiclassing. It's something that CAN happen in Pathfinder, but it's what DOES happen in 3.5.
Tome of Battle was the most 4th edition thing about 3.5. Which makes it the least 3.5 thing about 3.5.3.5 but not Pathfinder things
• Tome of Battle...learn to love it
Nope, that's incorrect. Complete Scoundrel gave us Skill Tricks which work nearly exactly like Skill-based and utility powers in 4e. Reserve Feats in Complete Mage were also a step into at-will magic territory that became 4e At-Wills too. The Knight's Call of Challenge is practically a 3.5 versions of a Mark. The roots of 4e were seeded all throughout 3.5 supplements, not just one. Regardless though is the fact that the Tome of Battle IS undoubtedly revised 3rd edition. It was such a great book that a very distinguished 3rd party publisher decided to make a better Pathfinder version.
Nope, that's incorrect. Complete Scoundrel gave us Skill Tricks which work nearly exactly like Skill-based and utility powers in 4e. Reserve Feats in Complete Mage were also a step into at-will magic territory that became 4e At-Wills too. The Knight's Call of Challenge is practically a 3.5 versions of a Mark. The roots of 4e were seeded all throughout 3.5 supplements, not just one. Regardless though is the fact that the Tome of Battle IS undoubtedly revised 3rd edition. It was such a great book that a very distinguished 3rd party publisher decided to make a better Pathfinder version.Tome of Battle was the most 4th edition thing about 3.5. Which makes it the least 3.5 thing about 3.5.3.5 but not Pathfinder things
• Tome of Battle...learn to love it
So it was one of a few books that pushed 3.5 towards 4e.
My point is that it made 3.5 FEEL like a very different game. Our group tried it, after a few sessions the players with ToB characters said they would reroll. We haven't used it since. We had been playing weekly since 3.0 was brand new, so ToB seemed ridiculous to us.
It is a fine book, if that is what you are looking for, but it does not feel like 3rd edition D&D.
CodZilla
Pun Pun
So it was one of a few books that pushed 3.5 towards 4e.My point is that it made 3.5 FEEL like a very different game. Our group tried it, after a few sessions the players with ToB characters said they would reroll. We haven't used it since. We had been playing weekly since 3.0 was brand new, so ToB seemed ridiculous to us.
It is a fine book, if that is what you are looking for, but it does not feel like 3rd edition D&D.
I'm not exactly sure what FEELS like 3e specifically. 3e was a hodge-podge collection of different sub-systems that lacked any cohesion. Warlocks and Dragonfire Adepts were different than Vancian casters. Psionics are a completely separate than everything else. Then there's the Tome of Magic with Incarnum. So I guess I just don't see the how different the Tome of Battle is when everything outside the PHB is basically different
Differentiate Spot and Listen checks (Pathfinder uses Perception for both). Magically silenced assassins should sneak up opposed by spot, things should happen on the other side of doors that need to be listened for, etc... Give the pregens really different scores in spot and listen.
Also Stealth was split between Move Silently and Hide. So the assassin might make his Hide Check vs Spot, but fail his Move Silently vs Listen check.
Also 3.5 has this wonderful thing called Level Adjustments(LA). This allowed Players to play as Monsters/Powerful Races in exchange for being a few levels behind the rest of the party. So if the "party" was level 5, but somebody wanted to play a half-dragon(+8 str :D), a Half Dragon has a +3LA. So a Half-Dragon Fighter would have 2 levels in fighter and a +3 LA making them an EFFECTIVE level 5 character.
3.5 Psionics! Or "Three and half times is the charm."
The first actually balanced Psionics system that gave 3.5 (and PF) Immediate actions and a casting system more balanced then the Core Casters.
Nope, that's incorrect. Complete Scoundrel gave us Skill Tricks which work nearly exactly like Skill-based and utility powers in 4e. Reserve Feats in Complete Mage were also a step into at-will magic territory that became 4e At-Wills too. The Knight's Call of Challenge is practically a 3.5 versions of a Mark. The roots of 4e were seeded all throughout 3.5 supplements, not just one. Regardless though is the fact that the Tome of Battle IS undoubtedly revised 3rd edition. It was such a great book that a very distinguished 3rd party publisher decided to make a better Pathfinder version.Tome of Battle was the most 4th edition thing about 3.5. Which makes it the least 3.5 thing about 3.5.3.5 but not Pathfinder things
• Tome of Battle...learn to love itSo it was one of a few books that pushed 3.5 towards 4e.
My point is that it made 3.5 FEEL like a very different game. Our group tried it, after a few sessions the players with ToB characters said they would reroll. We haven't used it since. We had been playing weekly since 3.0 was brand new, so ToB seemed ridiculous to us.
It is a fine book, if that is what you are looking for, but it does not feel like 3rd edition D&D.
Since running/playing 3.5 non-stop from 2002-2013 I've slowly come around to the conclusion that late 3.5 is best 3.5.
I too, at first, hated ToB and books that came around late in 3.5's life cycle. Like Tome of Magic, Magic of the Incarnum, and the second round of Complete books.
Upon reflection, if I ever went back to 3.5, I would toy with only letting my players pick stuff from 2005 onward; say everything after the Eberron core.
3.0 and early 3.5 were backwards facing in outlook. Trying to making the d20 system fit into a 2nd edition play paradigm. 3.5 only flourished after the designers took the reigns off and let the system go places and do things that weren't constrained by earlier iterations of D&D.
It wasn't an accident that 4th took the most interesting stuff out of late 3.5. 3.5 got shut down just as it was getting really interesting.