I'd suggest Inquisitor // Zen Archer Monk, but your group already has a Monk.
Since you're thinking of Tiefling, I'd suggest Eldritch Archer Magus, alongside either Wizard or Slayer depending on whether you want to emphasize casting or archery.
I was also going to suggest Zen Archer, though I might have suggested CLeric over Inquisitor, so you could double down on Wisdom and reap the benefits with a full caster.
However, Given current party composition, I agree that you may wish to go another way. Sounds like you will have enough divine magic, so you're probably better off going arcane (especially if the sorcerer plans on going melee... Which suggests his /her spells choices may be geared towards that rather than utility and control stuff). Having a character with high intelligence will also help shore up the knowledge skills.
Mixing with an archery focused magus build also means you can probably use your spell slots for more utility stuff, rather than being solely combat oriented.
Ranger (divine marksman) / magus (eldritch archer)
or
Ranger (divine marksman) / Warpriest
or
Paladin / arcane bloodrager (primalist)
So what if they already have a monk. The Zen Archer /inquisitor is the strongest archer gestalt build there is. About the only one that comes close is the Zen Archer/ Empyreal Sorcerer. Overall the Zen Archer/Inquisitor is stronger because it is hard to beat flurry of bane. Obviously the Druid/Monk is going to be focusing on wild shaping into a melee brute. The Zen Archer changes enough about the class so that there is going to be very little similarity between the characters. Also if the other player is smart he will go for an unchained mon/druid.
The Oni-Spawn Tiefling would work very well for a Zen Archer/Inquisitor. You get +2 STR, +2 WIS, and -2 CHA. You also trade away darkness for Alter Self as a spell like ability. This gives you the ability to shift into a medium race for an additional +2 STR.
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Oh I've played loads of gestalt archers to great effect
Your best bet is to get lotsa special arrows through either class features, like a trapper ranger's trap arrows, or an arcane/eldritch archer's magical arrows or you could simply buy special arrows and cast abundant ammunition
Have one arrow of each material type, one drop poison arrow one of each of the other weird arrows like splinter cloud and just use them over and over again via your abundant ammunition spell
Basically be hawkeye with a trapper ranger/eldritch archer or alchemist
Of course divine marksmen is also very potent, but I don't personally think it's quite as fun as being able to shoot beehives at people
There are lots of options
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Synthesist//Ranger? Not bad, but not as good as the similar Eldritch Archer//Ranger build. And while Zen//quisitor is one of the best archer gestalts there is in terms of firepower, I think this particular group needs the magus' magical flexibility more than it needs maximized damage.
For the Divine Marksman/Eldritch Archer you'll want stats looking like:
Str 13, Dex 16+2=18, Con 12, Int 14+2=16, Wis 10, Cha 8-2=6
This assumes a standard tiefling. You'll want to bump up Str at level 4 and then prioritize Int and Dex. Keeping control & debuffing in mind, a rough progression might be:
1 - Point Blank Shot, Bullseye Shot (Divine Marksman Bonus)
2 - Precise Shot (Ranger Bonus)
3 - Rapid Shot, Arcana (Arcane Accuracy?)
5 - Spell Focus (Conjuration), Rime Spell (Magus Bonus)
6 - Manyshot (Ranger Bonus), Arcana (Empowered Magic?)
7 - Intensify Spell
9 - Clustered Shots*, Arcana (Reach Spellstrike?)
10 - Improved Precise Shot (Ranger Bonus)
11 - Feat, Dazing Spell (Magus Bonus), Pinpoint Targeting (Divine Marksman bonus)
12 - Arcana (Spell Blending?)
13 - Feat
14 - Ranger Bonus
15 - Spell Perfection, Arcana (Quickened Magic)
The idea here is to make sure to grab core archery feats while also finding room for feats that improve the debuff potential of your spells. For example, Rime Snowball entangles a foe and can stagger it if they fail a Fort save (enhanced by Spell Focus). Spell Focus also helps out with some other solid Conjuration control spells like Glitterdust or Stinking Cloud.
*I'd take this early for a normal Ranger, but with the ability to enhance your weapon the Magus//Ranger is much more able to obtain the necessary enhancement bonus to bypass DR. See how much DR is getting in your way and delay or skip this feat accordingly.
Consider filling in feat gaps with Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Improved Initiative, Greater Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, Extra Arcana, or Point Blank Master (requires Weapon Focus or Specialization depending on whether you're taking it as a ranger bonus or using Fighter Training).
If you do go for Zenquisitor you'll want Asura-spawn, Oni-Spawn, or Qlippoth-spawn for +2 Wis and Dex or Str. Stats would look something like (Qlippoth-spawn example):
Str 13+2=15, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 12-2=10, Wis 16+2=18, Cha 7
Feat selections are a lot more flexible here because after Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot (level 1 bonus), you've got the basics covered. Flurry replaces Rapid Shot and Manyshot and you get other goodies like Weapon Focus/Specialization and Point Blank Master automatically. Just pick up Improved Precise Shot as your 6th level bonus feat and Clustered Shots as soon as you qualify and you can do anything you want.
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Building off what Mysterious Stranger suggested, what do you think about playing a fallen Aasimar rather than a Tiefling? Everyone expects the Tieefling to go bad, but it is extra heartbreaking when an Aasimar does...
Archon-blooded seems fitting to the theme (and gets +2 WIS and CON), but Garuda-blooded would also work mechanically (getting +2 WIS and DEX).
My thinking is that you could then justifiably Gestalt Zen Archer and a Sorcerer with the Empyreal bloodline (wildblooded), to remain focused on Wisdom as the primary statistic for both casting and shooting, while still getting the arcane spellcasting.
A kind DM might also let you run the Heavenly Fire bloodline power so it heals evil characters and harms good ones, though it's a pretty minor power anyways.
The nice part about Zen Archer is that you're swimming in extra feats, so you can get all the main archery ones from the class bonuses, and then use your regular feats for other things, such as boosting the arcane side of the character.
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If you're open to crossbows the bolt ace gunslinger with a ranger or slayer could be absolutely devastating, depending on whether you like the idea of favored enemy or studied target and sneak attack better,
To take best advantage of gestalt rules, you should end up with full BAB and all or mostly all good saves.
Personally, I'd mix a Sniper Slayer with a Divination Wizard. You'll always get to go first and set up your studied target, even when surprised. And you'll have a ton of utility outside of fighting too.
There is nothing preventing you from taking any bloodline based on race. Usually the magical ancestor for the bloodline is many generations removed. Strangely enough the same is true for races like Aasimar, and Tiefling. You could easily have a tiefling with the empyreal bloodline, or an aasimar with the infernal bloodline.
I think the spell list and class abilities of the inquisitor actually compliment the zen archer better than a sorcerer. An while I don’t have a problem with two of the same class in the game the characters should have enough differences that they don’t duplicate themselves. Besides the inquisitor actually have a better spell list for buffing, and when added to the inquisitors other class abilities they get positively obscene. The biggest limitation on the inquisitor is his lack of combat feats and lower BAB, which limits his number of attacks. The zen archer gets all the feats needed and with flurry of arrows gets a lot of extra attacks.
As to race the Oni-Spawn tiefling actually has the perfect stat combination. +2 to your two most important stats and a penalty to you dump stat. Tieflings can also trade out fiendish sorcery and their spell like ability for soul seer. Being able to use Deathwatch at will is actually pretty decent.
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I haven't done the math to check but having seen both a zen archer (monk)/inquisitor and an eldritch archer (magus)/slayer (or ranger) in action I think they're pretty evenly matched in terms of damage output. They also both have all good saves and 6+ skill points (which makes them good all around gestalt combinations). IMO the EA/slayer has a slight advantage in that it has a real full BAB and d10 hit die to the ZA/inq's sometimes full BAB and d8 hit die . That's in general; for your party specifically, it looks like you'd benefit more from additional arcane casting than more divine (as others have mentioned) so I'd definitely suggest the eldritch archer/slayer. That's also a better fit for Tiefling I think.
I can post a potential build for you but before I do: are you allowed to use prestige classes at all? or multiclass in any way? I haven't given it much thought yet but there's probably some cool options available once you throw arcane archer into the mix...
There is nothing preventing you from taking any bloodline based on race. Usually the magical ancestor for the bloodline is many generations removed. Strangely enough the same is true for races like Aasimar, and Tiefling. You could easily have a tiefling with the empyreal bloodline, or an aasimar with the infernal bloodline.
I think the spell list and class abilities of the inquisitor actually compliment the zen archer better than a sorcerer. An while I don’t have a problem with two of the same class in the game the characters should have enough differences that they don’t duplicate themselves. Besides the inquisitor actually have a better spell list for buffing, and when added to the inquisitors other class abilities they get positively obscene. The biggest limitation on the inquisitor is his lack of combat feats and lower BAB, which limits his number of attacks. The zen archer gets all the feats needed and with flurry of arrows gets a lot of extra attacks.
As to race the Oni-Spawn tiefling actually has the perfect stat combination. +2 to your two most important stats and a penalty to you dump stat. Tieflings can also trade out fiendish sorcery and their spell like ability for soul seer. Being able to use Deathwatch at will is actually pretty decent.
I don't disagree with any of this.
My remarks on race/bloodline were primarily "fluff" oriented, and not meant to suggest you could not be a Tiefling with the Empyreal bloodline. I would personally have an easier time justifying the Empyreal bloodline for an Aasimar than a Tiefling, but you can really justify any bloodline for any race if you're willing to make the creative leaps to do so.
Regarding Inquisitor vs Sorcerer, I expect it really depends on what playstyle OP wants. Inquisitor is likely better for a true "archer" style character, who leverages his/her abilities to be a better shooter. Sorcerer adds a few more dynamic elements and some breadth, but moves away from the archer theme a bit.
Fun idea if OP goes Zenquisitor: Consider picking up Snake Style at some point to combo with Inquisitor's Stern Gaze bonus to Sense Motive for a fun defensive ability.
I don't know if it is super optimal, but I like the fluff of a character who reads the movements of his enemies so well he can avoid attacks that would otherwise have hit him. If this appeals to you, you could also consider a Devilspawn Tieflingfor the additional +2 bonus to Sense Motive (though it probably remains less 'optimal' than Onispawn).
The zen archer already get weapon specialization at 6th level. About the only core archery feat they have to actually spend a feat on is deadly aim. Just about all others they get as a bonus feat or the equivalent as a class ability. There are probably one or two more they may want to pick up, but the basics are hard coded into the archetype
The sorcerer/oracle is full arcane caster as well as a full divine caster, but since both are spontaneous casters it is hard to tell what type of spells he will have. While the druid is a full prepared divine caster his spell list is a little light on what most people think of when they talk about divine casters. They do have a surprising number of direct attack spells and battle field control spells. Overall between these two characters they pretty well have most of the magic covered so the party is not really lacking in anything as far as spells go.
The inquisitors spell list is a strange mix of traditional divine magic with a lot of utility spells throw in for good measure. They have the normal bless, cure xx wounds, prayer, but they also get disguise self, true strike, invisibility, knock and a lot of other spells not normally on divine lists. What is really going to come down to is what the original poster wants his character to do. If he wants to boost his archery to obscene levels the inquisitor is the way to go. If he wants to have more options in combat than the magus is probably better.
Also the inquisitor is the skill guy. He gets bonus to intimidate, sense motive, survival, and all the monster based knowledge skills. If he takes improved monster lore he is actually better at identify monsters than a bard.
Zen Archer//Warpriest? Flurry of 2d8 arrows at 20th.
But Zen Archer//Inquisitor lets you flurry bane arrows at 5th. And greater bane at 12th.
And more skills.
For a three person party with no other skilled or int based character 6 isn't skilled enough. Monster Lore is not a large bonus. It's just stat substitution without doing anything about the number of skill points per level.Also the inquisitor is the skill guy. He gets bonus to intimidate, sense motive, survival, and all the monster based knowledge skills. If he takes improved monster lore he is actually better at identify monsters than a bard.
Improved monster lore is a feat that adds ½ level to your monster lore. This is basically getting the same bonus as a bard for the purpose of identifying monsters. This is in addition to getting both INT and WIS on those rolls. Considering the neither the zen archer or the inquisitor has a +1 BAB at first level this is actually one of the better feats for an inquisitor.
Both of the other characters will be getting 4 skill points per level not 2. As I stated the inquisitor gets a bonus of ½ their level on intimidate, sense motive, and gets the rangers bonus to track. This effectively gives the inquisitor a +4 skill points per level for the cost of a single feat.
The only classes that get more than 6 skill points per level are rogue and ninja neither of which add anything useful to an archer. All INT based classes get 2 skill points per level. As an archer you want the stat that you use determine your chance to hit to be your highest. This means either DEX, or in the case of a zen archer WIS. You also want decent STR for damage o, and of course everyone needs CON. That means more than likely your INT base gestalt character is getting 4 +INT bonus skill points per level. This means the INT based character would likely get 7 or 8 skill points per level.
Don’t count on the druid/monk having a really high perception and survival. He will probably have some point invested in these skills, but he has a lot of other skills he will want. He is going to want some points into acrobatic, climb, fly and swim to take advantage of changing into creatures with other forms of movement. He will also want points into knowledge nature, perception stealth and survival. If he has an animal companion he is also going to need handle animal. And as a spell caster he is going to want at least a few points into spellcraft. That makes about 9 to 10 skills which is going to mean he is spread pretty thin.
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Eldritch Archer//Ranger gets 6+Int skills, which with Int 16 gives you 9 ranks per level. That's a significant advantage over the Zen//quisitor's likely 6.
Monster Lore is pretty good, and Improved Monster Lore is a nice bonus, but it doesn't help non-monster related Knowledge checks or Spellcraft, both of which might be important.
Investigator//Fighter does sound like a pretty solid choice if you're concerned about skills and especially Int-based skills. Weapon training, lots of feats, perfect saves, 6+Int skill ranks, lots of extra utility and solid buffing. It's definitely lighter on control options than EA//Ranger, though, on top of Ranged Study's short range.
The sorcerer/oracle is full arcane caster as well as a full divine caster, but since both are spontaneous casters it is hard to tell what type of spells he will have. While the druid is a full prepared divine caster his spell list is a little light on what most people think of when they talk about divine casters. They do have a surprising number of direct attack spells and battle field control spells. Overall between these two characters they pretty well have most of the magic covered so the party is not really lacking in anything as far as spells go.
They certainly have the potential to cover all the party's magical needs, but the OP indicated that both characters will be melee-focused. Maybe OP meant only that they were preferring melee over ranged and for example the Soracle is planning on mostly casting but with a longspear in hand to take a poke now and then. If so, great, and the OP doesn't need to worry so much about arm/anvil/hammer balance. However, when I hear "melee + caster" I'm thinking of a build that mostly self-buffs with maybe a little group buffing and spell saves too low to land decent debuffs.
Don’t count on the druid/monk having a really high perception and survival. He will probably have some point invested in these skills, but he has a lot of other skills he will want. He is going to want some points into acrobatic, climb, fly and swim to take advantage of changing into creatures with other forms of movement. He will also want points into knowledge nature, perception stealth and survival. If he has an animal companion he is also going to need handle animal. And as a spell caster he is going to want at least a few points into spellcraft. That makes about 9 to 10 skills which is going to mean he is spread pretty thin.
Turning into creatures with climb or swim speeds is how you avoid investing more than a rank into Climb or Swim. Wild Shape also gives you pretty hefty bonuses to Fly and Stealth with relevant forms (a medium air elemental gets +10 to Fly; a bat gets +13 to Fly and +15 to Stealth). You certainly can't count on the druid having max ranks in Perception, Sense Motive, and Survival but she hasn't got as much competition for those skill points as you suggest.
And while we're speculating about the rest of the party's builds, consider that the Soracle may be a Loracle (the Cha to AC revelation is nice for that combination), in which case they can help with the knowledge skills.
I'm not very good at gestalt classing can someone explain to me why an Eldritch Archer + Inquisitor wouldn't work? Greater Bane with scorching Ray tacked on? sounds nasty to me. Or maybe empowered scorching ray. That sounds like en exciting amount of dice to get to roll to me xD.
You don't want your gestalt to rely on any more ability scores than it has to. Inquisitor needs wisdom while magus requires intelligence. This would be on top of the dexterity that you must have and the constitution that anyone wants. And with an adaptive bow, having a good strength is still desired.
You don't want your gestalt to rely on any more ability scores than it has to. Inquisitor needs wisdom while magus requires intelligence. This would be on top of the dexterity that you must have and the constitution that anyone wants. And with an adaptive bow, having a good strength is still desired.
Oooo thanks makes sense.
A skilled Half Orc Inquisitor with Improved Monster Lore and the Half orc favored class bonus can be a really good skill monkey. Plus as a ZA you can afford a couple points into INT if you need more. I'm playing a high level non Gestalt Inquisitor and his skill coverage is awesome, especially since I have spells like invisibility, honeyed tongue, and heroism to boost me further.
Which isn't to say something else couldn't be better, just that Inquisitor is really solid if you build for it, and you can afford to with that gestalt.
Investigator/Fighter is pretty strong. Ranged Study is only range limited for the strike. The studied combat bonus is not limited.
"Choose one kind of ranged weapon. You gain the bonuses for studied combat with your chosen weapon and can use studied strike with your chosen weapon as long as the target of your studied strike is within 30 feet of you."
Sohei monk/ranger
More arrows in the air than a zen archer, weapon training, lots of skills, lots of bonus feats.
Don't worry about wisdom; you can flurry in a mithral breastplate.
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I think between the Eldritch Archer//Ranger, Zen Archer//Inquisitor, and Investigator//Fighter it's really a matter of personal taste and the specifics of the other two characters' skills and control/debuff potential.
@Melkiador - Good catch on the range of Ranged Study!
(Improved Monster Lore) is a feat on an archer. There are a lot of archery feats.
As Mysterious Stranger mentioned above, the Zen Archer does get most of the archery basics baked in, whether as bonus feats (PBS, Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot, Weapon Focus, Point Blank Master) or roughly equivalent class features (Flurry replaces Rapid Shot & Manyshot, Reflexive Shot replaces Snap Shot). Using a feat or two for skills is not a problem, unlike for example the Eldritch Archer//Ranger.
If you're dropping a feat you need to compare to the investigator also using a feat on ranged study. He's 6+int with inspiration giving free +1d6 to trained knowledge, linguistics, and spellcraft checks, any other check he gets from a talent, and any skill or ability check several times a day. He's also int based and has trapfinding. It's going to be a long time before +half level beats 6 higher int and inspiration.
Not having +1 BAB at first level is not a merit of the monk//inquisitor, it's a flaw. You'll get delayed access to deadly aim, clustered shots, and possibly snap shot which a martial can qualify for 3 levels before the zen archer gets the equivalent ability. A zen archer also cannot get improved snap shot without wasting a feat on a redundant snap shot.
Investigator//Fighter is definitely the skilliest option on the menu, and no slouch in combat. However I wouldn't worry too much about the Zen Archer's access to Clustered Shots or Improved Snap Shot. The ZAM alone is still at least as good as the archer fighter and Gestalt with Inquisitor not only adds damage from Judgment and Bane but gives you more options to get through DR.
Intimidate and sense motive are almost certainly redundant with the soracle. You don't make a 4+int full charisma caster and not go for face skills.
You don't always take all the face skills, though. If I recall correctly, the Bard//Sorc in our current gestalt campaign has got Bluff, Diplomacy, and Disguise, but not Intimidate, and the Cavalier//Oracle does have Intimidate and Diplomacy, but doesn't have Sense Motive - which is after all a Wis-based skill and thus one which doesn't benefit from the character's high Cha.
I never said that not having full BAB is a benefit. What I said was that since they cannot take many feats at first level picking up improved monster lore at first level is a good choice.
The druid/monk is probably not going to be maxing out a lot of skills. That was my whole point. More than likely he is going to be spreading them out fairly evenly.
The zen archer/inquisitor needs fewer high stats than the investigator/fighter. The original poster already said he was interested in an archer. That means if you go investigator/fighter you need a good STR, INT, and DEX, and all character need a decent CON. With a ZEN Archer you need a good WIS, and STR, you only need a 13 DEX for deadly aim. You have the same requirement for CON as any other character. INT should probably be left at 10 and you can dump CHA as much as you want.
Even at first level he still has access to spells, and judgements. He also has access to the monks unarmed attack so can use that for the first few levels until his archery comes on line. That allows him to attack without having to drop the bow when someone is next to him. Which by the way he gets at 3rd level. Since the fighter requires weapon specialization that means the fighter is not picking up point blank master until 5th level.
yes, we're allowed to use prestige classes, and now i'm thinking of a EA/ mutation warrior, seems cool..
I really like the mutation warrior archetype. I'm not sure what exactly you want from it, but I think maybe you might be better off here with a mutagenic mauler brawler... You still get mutagen, you still get full BAB and a fair number of bonus feats (though, admittedly less than the fighter), and you get a couple of the fringe benefits of a zen archer (like threatening the area around you with unarmed strikes). You'd also get a good Ref save and 2 more skill points per level than the fighter.
I have a couple play by post games I need to post in tonight but I'll try to find time tomorrow to post an EA/slayer build (and maybe an EA/mutagenic mauler build too if I can).
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You only need a 13 Dex for ZAM, but if you're already buying a 13 you might as well take the 14 and get an extra +1 to AC, Initiative, and your level 1-2 ranged attack. It's cheaper than bumping Wis to 20.
And if you're planning on spending early levels in melee you really do want that extra point of AC - and/or extra Con since you're working with a d8 instead of d10 HD. Or you could spend your FCB on HP while the Investigator//Fighter snags yet another skill point.
Seriously, given 18 point buy both should probably buy 16, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 and end up with 13 18 12 16 10 6 for the I//F, 14 14 13 10 18 6 for the ZQ.
Sample build for inquisitor/zen archer
Tiefling Archer
Oni-spawn tiefling inquisitor 6/monk (zen archer) 6/gestalt 6 (Pathfinder Player Companion: Blood of Fiends 22, Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player's Guide 38, 115, Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 264)
LE Medium outsider (native)
Init +7; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +14
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Defense
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AC 22, touch 18, flat-footed 20 (+2 armor, +2 Dex, +1 monk, +2 natural, +5 Wis)
hp 45 (6d8+12)
Fort +10, Ref +10, Will +13
Resist cold 5, electricity 5, fire 5
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Offense
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Speed 50 ft.
Melee unarmed strike +7 (1d8+3)
Ranged or
+1 adaptive composite longbow flurry of blows +15/+15/+10 (1d8+6/×3) or
+1 adaptive composite longbow +11 (1d8+6/×3)
Special Attacks bane (6 rounds/day), flurry of blows, judgment 2/day, zen archery
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 6th; concentration +3)
At will—deathwatch
Inquisitor Spell-Like Abilities (CL 6th; concentration +11)
At will—detect alignment, discern lies (6 rounds/day)
Inquisitor Spells Known (CL 6th; concentration +11)
2nd (4/day)—acute senses[UM] (DC 17), blistering invective[UC] (DC 17), invisibility, knock
1st (6/day)—divine favor, know the enemy[UM], protection from good, true strike
0 (at will)—create water, detect magic, detect poison, guidance, read magic, sift[APG]
Domain Heresy inquisition
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Statistics
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Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 20, Cha 5
Base Atk +4; CMB +7; CMD 25
Feats Armor Of The Pit[ARG], Coordinated Shot[ACG], Deadly Aim, Enfilading Fire[UC], Improved Monster Lore[UM], Improved Precise Shot, Improved Unarmed Strike, Perfect Strike[APG], Point Blank Master[APG], Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus (longbow), Weapon Specialization (longbow)
Skills Acrobatics +6 (+20 to jump), Bluff +11, Climb +7, Disguise -1, Heal +9, Intimidate +22, Knowledge (arcana) +5, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +5, Knowledge (nature) +5, Knowledge (planes) +5, Knowledge (religion) +5, Perception +14, Sense Motive +17, Spellcraft +7, Stealth +11, Survival +11, Swim +7; Racial Modifiers +2 Disguise, +2 Intimidate
Languages Common, Goblin, Infernal
SQ blessed infiltration, fast movement, high jump, ki archery, ki arrows, ki pool (8 points magic), monster lore +11, slow fall 30 ft., solo tactics, stern gaze +3, track +3
Other Gear +1 adaptive composite longbow, bracers of armor +2, cloak of resistance +1, efficient quiver, headband of inspired wisdom +2, 1,800 gp
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Special Abilities
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Bane (+2 / 2d6, 6 rounds/day) (Su) Make the weapon you are holding a bane weapon.
Blessed Infiltration (5/day) (Ex) Roll twice for Bluff, Diplomacy, or Stealth check and take higher result.
Coordinated Shot If ally threatens but doesn't provide cover gain +1 bon on ranged atks vs. opp.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white only).
Deadly Aim -2/+4 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Detect Alignment (At will) (Sp) Detect chaos, evil, good, or law at will.
Discern Lies (6 rounds/day) (Sp) Discern Lies at will
Energy Resistance, Cold (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Cold attacks.
Energy Resistance, Electricity (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Electricity attacks.
Energy Resistance, Fire (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Fire attacks.
Enfilading Fire +2 to ranged att vs. a foe flanked by an ally with this feat.
Fast Movement (+20 ft.) The Monk adds 10 or more feet to his base speed.
Flurry of Blows +8/+8/+3 (Ex) As full-rd action, higher BAB and combo unarmed/monk wep as if two-weapon fighting.
High Jump (+6/+26 with Ki point) (Ex) +6 to Acrobatics checks made to jump.
Improved Precise Shot Ignore AC bonuses and miss chance from anything less than total cover/concealment.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Inquisitor Domain (Heresy Inquisition) Deities: Abadar, Asmodeus, Calistria, Desna, Erastil, Gorum, Gozreh, Iomedae, Lamashtu, Nethys, Norgorber, Pharasma, Rovagug, Sarenrae, Shelyn, Torag, Urgathoa, Zon-Kuthon.
Granted Powers: Often it is hard to tell heretics from the f
Judgment (2/day) (Su) Variable bonuses increase as the combat continues.
Ki Archery (Su) 1 Ki point: +50' range increment for bows.
Ki Arrows (Su) 1 Ki point: bow deals the same damage as unarmed strike.
Ki Pool (8/day) (Su) You have a ki pool equal to 1/2 your monk level + your Wisdom modifier.
Monster Lore +11 (Ex) +11 to Knowledge checks when identifying the weaknessess of creatures.
Perfect Strike (2d20, 6/day) With certain weapons, roll twice, higher is attack, lower is confirmation roll.
Point-Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Precise Shot You don't get -4 to hit when shooting or throwing into melee.
Slow Fall 30 ft. (Ex) Treat a fall as shorter than normal if within arm's reach of a wall.
Solo Tactics (Ex) Count Teamwork feats as if your allies had the same ones.
Stern Gaze +3 (Ex) +3 to Sense Motive and Intimidate.
Track +3 Add the listed bonus to survival checks made to track.
Zen Archery (Su) Use WIS instead of DEX for ranged attacks with a bow.
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If he gets a chance to put up divine favor and shield of faith as well as activate Judgement of Justice and bane, and spends a ki point he bonus to hit goes up to +18/+18/+18/+13 and he does 1d8 +14 +2d6 damage per hit. He can get an addition +4 to hit if both the other member of the party are flanking the target. Also since he has improved precise shot he takes absolutely no penalty to hit for firing into melee or cover. This also raises he AC to 25
Improved precise shot is one of, if not the most important feat for an archer. The zen archer gets it at 6th level. A fighter has to wait for 11th. An inquisitor also get free teamwork feats two of which are archery based and can use the feats even if other people don’t have them.
See my build above for details. Go ahead and post a build for your suggestions for comparison.
I think level 6 is a breakpoint for the ZAM, but let's see how the investigator/fighter(mutation warrior) stacks up. Note that I'm barely optimizing here. I could eke out a little more Attack and damage if I were the sort to do dump scores.
Level 6 gestalt half elf using a short bow
STR: 14 DEX: 19 CON: 10 INT: 14 WIS: 10 CHA: 10
+1 adaptive short bow
1: point blank shot,rapid shot
2: weapon focus(short bow)
3: ranged study(short bow), quick study
4: precise shot
5: weapon specialization(short bow)
6: many shot
Expected attack bonus:19
6 BAB
4 dex
6 studied combat
1 weapon focus
1 weapon training
1 magic weapon
Optional attack bonus: 22+1d6
1d6+1 inspiration with half elf
2 from dex mutagen
Expected damage: 1d6+12
1d6 shortbow
6 studied combat
2 strength
1 magic weapon
2 weapon specialization
1 weapon training
I didn't count the bonus from point blank because it's so uncontrollable. And I just forgot to count the bonus for a belt of dex.
So not bad, but level 9 is a breakpoint for this build. That's when you get twice inspiration to your damage, with an inspired shortbow and combat inspiration. And you can use advanced weapon training to gain focused weapon and raise the damage die of that shortbow.
A couple of errors on your build studied strike gives you ½ your investigator level not your level so you only get +3, not +6. You are also forgetting you -2 for rapid shot. That brings your bonus to hit down to +15/+15/+10 you can add your inspiration to that total, but you only have a limited number of times you can do this. This also brings down your damage by 3. If you drink your DEX Mutagen your bonus to hit goes up to +17/+17/+12 Not sure why you chose a short bow but assuming you are using a longbow your damage is 1d8+9
Second you don’t have improve precise shot more often than not your target will have cover from you. Usually in the form of your own melee focused teammates. This means you are effectively taking a -4 to hit. Technically your target gets +4 AC, but the end result is the same. Precise Shot removes the penalty for firing into a melee, but not the bonus for cover. The zen archer/inquisitor is actually gaining a +4 bonus in these circumstances due to his teamwork feats.
So fully buffed up you have +17/+17/+12, but effectively you have +13/+13/+8. Fully buffed up my build has +22/+22/+22/+15. You do 18+9 points of damage, where I am doing 1d8+2d6 +14. I am getting a full attack every round regardless of enemies being next to me. If you are surrounded you provoke AoO or have to move which means you are probably not getting a full attack.
You get 1 skill point more per level than I do, but I get large bonus’s to numerous skills so overall I come out ahead on this as well. You actually have less HP because I had the points to spend on CON. You beat me on reflex saves, but your other saves are worse. When you are using your mutagen for DEX your will save is crap.
Magic wise I come out ahead mainly because I get 0 level spells. They may not be powerful but I can keep casting them all day long. Guidance basically gives me a +1 on attack roll, saving throw or skill roll. While not really useful in combat it works well for skills out of combat. Sift allows me to search something at range which is always good.
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Fort +10, Ref +10, Will +13
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Offense
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+1 adaptive composite longbow flurry of blows +15/+15/+10 (1d8+6/×3)
Where are these numbers coming from? I think unbuffed you should be getting saves of +8 to +11 (+5 base, +2 or 5 stat, +1 resistance) and an attack bonus of +11 (+4 base flurry, +5 wis, +1 magic, +1 weapon focus). Is it counting a bonus I'm not, or is it messing up the math on gestalt?
Melkiador - I don't like stat dumping either, but to make a fair comparison it's important to use a similar level of stat optimization - and not forget about stat items, and use the race that the OP requested (which gives you more favourable stat modifiers).
So:
Tiefling Investigator//Fighter(Mutation Warrior) 6
Str 14, Dex 20, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 5
Attack routine (unbuffed): +12/+12/+7 (2d6+12 on first, then d6+6)
Attack routine (studied combat): +15/+15/+10 (2d6+18, then d6+9)
Attack routine (sc+mutagen): +17/+17/+12 (2d6+18, d6+9)
AC 20 (+5 chain, +5 Dex)
HP 52 (6d10+12)
Fort +8 (+12 vs poison) Ref +11 Will +7 (+9 vs fear)
Skills: 10*level ranks (includes FCB) plus inspiration
eg Knowledge (Arcana, Nature, Planes, Religion, Local) +12+d6, Spellcraft +12+d6, Stealth +14, Perception +10, Disable Device +12, plus 6 ranks for minor skills.
Gear: +1 adaptive shortbow, +2 belt of dex, +1 mithral chain shirt, +1 cloak of resistance, efficient quiver, 2700gp
Misc bonuses: make knowledge skills untrained, trapfinding, trap sense +2, poison lore, swift alchemy, additional investigator talent, racial stuff.
AC is a little lower than the Zenquisitor, but HP is higher and the Investigator gets better AC buffs than the Inquisitor (6th level Barkskin + Shield = 27 > your buffed 25). Gets 2 more skills per level and the Knowledge and Spellcraft skills are much better, aside from Monster Lore which is comparable (+15.5 with free inspiration vs +16). Trapfinding may also be important, depending on campaign. Offensive analysis pending your math check.
You go shortbow for combat inspiration with an inspired weapon. Inspired is good before the combat inspiration talent, but becomes extra good after it. The damage die difference of shortbow barely matters and will be surpassed by the fighter's focused weapon.
As for spells, the investigator really does better here. He gets strong defenses like displacement and false life. Strong movement, having almost every flying option. And strong polymorphs, allowing his bow to use an even higher range of damage dice.
Also don't forget the manyshot. So that first shot is doing almost the damage of two shots.
Combat inspiration seems really use limited at first, but the beauty of it is that you don't actually use it unless it would make a difference, because you don't have to use it until after your attack roll.
Now compare that to judgement and bane. At that level judgment can only be used for two combats before you have to rest. This means you will either not have it when you need it, or you will try to save it for something big and let it go to waste some of the time. Bane is similarly great for boss fights, but you will see a lot more than 6 rounds of combat in your average adventuring day, meaning you will either waste it or miss it. But the really big problem is how swift action starved you are. You have two key inquisitor abilities that rely on swift actions and the monk's Ki is a third ability often needing your swift actions. On top of that, your teamwork feats also tend to eat swift actions, by requiring immediate actions. So, while your maximum may sound nice, it takes you 3 rounds to get there, and you never know if you are using it at the right time.
But as I said, level 6 is a strong breakpoint for your build. My build does ok at that level but really takes off by level 9. That's when you get combat inspiration and you have those extra archery feats and you can afford the good items like gloves of dueling and an inspired shortbow.
Yea it looks like Hero Labs is messing up the math. Sorry about that.
By 9th level the zen archer/inquisitor is actually getting even better. He gets an additional attack with his flurry, and also gets Second Judgement. This means he now gets both a bonus to hit and damage. He can now use judgments 3 times per day. Reflex shot also comes online at this point giving him more attacks. By this time he can also afford a bane baldric which boosts his bane to greater bane and gives him 14 rounds per day.
Neither Coordinated Shot, nor Enfilading Fire requires any kind of action at all. Both of them simply require proper positioning of your allies.
The investigator seems to give you more options, but I think the zen archer/inquisitor makes a better archer. Given a little warning they can pretty much take down anything. Especially they get their third roll for perfect strike. Rolling 3d20 and being able to take the one that rolls the highest really improves your chance of getting a critical hit. It actually makes it worthwhile to tack improved critical for the bow.
Ok, I see people posting full builds but I don't really have time for that, especially since I want to present you with a few options. So, here's a few outlines...
Levels 1-6: slayer [sniper]/wizard [exploiter]. Use the slayer combat style talents to pick up precise shot and improved precise shot (don't worry about point blank mastery because you're going to avoid being in melee), and use your regular feats for whichever archery feats you prefer (point blank shot should be at 1st; after that your choice out of rapid shot, deadly aim, far shot, weapon focus, etc). You should have 10-11 skill points: pick a few to keep at max ranks (including perception because the real range of your bow is how far away you can see enemies), and spread the rest around your knowledges. Use one of your traits for magical knack [wizard]. You'll largely play like a wizard- use spells to defend yourself, stay out of melee, and you'll have more spells for control and your bow for damage. You can grab a trick or two with your exploits but use arcane pool mostly for boosting DC and/or CL.
Levels 7-14: arcane archer/magus [eldritch archer]. You'll fall behind in your casting slightly using AA to advance your wizard casting (thus magical knack) but you gain a lot of bonuses/tricks with your archery. Use your first arcana for arcane accuracy for a huge bonus to hit when you need it. At 12th things really come together with broad study (which lets you use your wizard spells with spell combat and spell strike ). You'll get 2 less skill points during these levels so you may want to pick a couple knowledges to let fall behind. Your caster level as a magus will never get above 8 so you may want to focus those spells on buffing/utility. With imbue arrow you can launch anti-magic fields onto enemies and then riddle them with arrows from afar.
Levels 15-20: slayer/wizard. As you run out of archery feats pick up quicken spell and other caster feats. Enjoy being a super badass archer with spell casting that's barely behind a dedicated caster.
Levels 1-20: slayer [sniper]/magus [eldritch archer]. Feats start like the ranged damage build but when you get your second combat style talent take point blank master; at 7th and 9th take snap shot and improved snap shot (and look for a chance to take combat reflexes). You should have 8-9 skill points; pick a few to max out and spread the rest in knowledges- perception is much less important here but acrobatics might be important for tactical movement. The typical magus traits and spell selection should work pretty well once you have reach spell strike. Again, this build definitely lacks the spell power of the first one but the combination of being able to cast and full-attack, plus potentially getting several AoOs every round is really pretty solid.
*edit*
Levels 1-6: slayer [sniper]/wizard [transmuter-enhancement]. Pick up all the rogue skills and spread the rest among knowledges. Feats and combat style should be pretty similar to above. Use other talent for trapfinding.
Levels 7-16: fighter [lore warden]/arcane trickster. This keeps your skill points the same, gets you a ton of feats, plus weapon training, and the unique benefits of arcane trickster (and it ups your sneak attack and keeps full casting progression).
Levels 17-20: slayer/wizard. By now you should be set on archery feats, so pick up things to boost your skills and spells. Sneak all the places and cast all the spells.
Please feel free to ask questions- I'll do my best to answer quickly.
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Bane Baldric doesn't give you Greater Bane early, though some folks think it should.
I don't doubt that the Zen Archer has better peak damage, but Melkiador is also correct that it takes several rounds to get your buffs in a line and the limited use is a significant limitation until higher levels. Given the math error, the Investigator//Fighter has a stronger offense using only their reliable buff (studied combat). Even if they are blocked by cover (which will not happen all the time - in my experience maybe 1/3 of the time) they still have an equivalent attack bonus to the base Zenquisitor and higher damage from Manyshot.
Do people feel this is a fair summary?
Zen Archer Monk//Inquisitor
Pros:
- High peak damage
- Most flexibility with feats
- Can function in melee range
- Best social skills (esp. Intimidate, Sense Motive)
- Good monster identification
- Tracking
Cons
- Mediocre Int skills aside from Monster Lore
- Least magical flexibility
- Requires lots of actions to buff, especially swift actions
- Delayed access to Deadly Aim, Clustered Shots
Fighter//Investigator
Pros:
- Best reliable damage
- Best Int-based skills, very strong skills generally
- Good magical utility and defense
- Trapfinding
Cons
- No early access to Improved Precise Shot
- Lower peak damage
Variations on Eldritch Archer
Pros:
- Best magical control/debuffing
- Best action economy (ranged spell combat)
- High peak damage (comparable to Zen//Quisitor?)
- Potentially tracking and/or trapfinding with Slayer
- Decent number of skill ranks, Int-based skills
Cons
- Most feat hungry
- Most reliant on spells for power
- No great skills
There's always Paladin/Bard. That's pretty scary right there.
@weirdo- I think as broad generalities your pros and cons list is pretty accurate. The eldritch archer variations, as I said, really come together at higher levels (honestly I think they just keep getting stronger). By 20th level I'm pretty sure the first build has the highest peak damage (quickened 3rd or 4th level spell on a free arrow, 40d6 disintegrate on a free arrow, and a full attack worth of arrows in one round!); his skills will be more situational than the investigator (since he won't be adding inspiration dice for free a lot of the time), but with spells to buff (or replace) a lot of checks he should do well there too. Until 12th it probably lags behind the others a little but from 12 on its pretty potent. It is definitely the most spell dependent though.
@atzen- I've actually played that combo twice; I really like it but I'm not sure how well it would work as an archer...
If we are going to the 20th level, the investigator fighter can combine focus weapon with polymorphs to have every arrow deal 3d8 damage. And if you burn through your inspiration pool with an inspired weapon, you will be adding 4d6 to every hit.
And while bane is good and gets better. Any archer can keep some bane arrows around for a similar effect. That starts expensive, but gets relatively cheaper as you level.
I don't want to get pulled into a competition- I don't think it's helpful for the OP, and it's not why I'm here. Just to illustrate my point about how powerful the arcane archer build gets though...
Round 1- swift: arcane pool to buff bow; full-round: spell combat [full attack with bow then cast time stop]
free 1d4 rounds- buff: giant form 2, gravity bow, haste, etc (use quicken rod if needed)
Round 2- kill all the things
In the first round he does ok damage and casts 2-8 buffs (depending on length of time stop and how many quickened spells or rod uses he uses). Starting in round 2 every arrow does 4d6 with a big Str bonus (plus 4d6 sneak attack if you can get it), and you can full attack plus cast 2 spells (with 2 bonus arrows, plus an extra from haste). If one of your buffs was spellsword you could also be empowering or maximizing some of those spells. Nothing adds insult to injury like maximizing the 40d6 disintegrate that comes with your 8 or 9 arrows and other spell.
Obviously he can't do that every fight, but his nova potential is ridiculous.
And, again, this is just when he's focusing on damage... I think one of the real strengths with this build is the flexibility- he can do anything a wizard can. You can focus your spells on control or change whole regions with earth quakes and control weather, and still have solid archery to fall back on when needed.
A couple of more advantages to the zen archer/inquisitor.
More attacks per round than any other archer. (9 normal attacks per round at 17th level with Divine Power or haste) With combat reflexes and a 14 DEX you can actually get 12 attacks.
Better defenses vs magic due to Stalwart. (Completely ignoring an effect if you make your save is hard to beat)
Better maneuverability Fast Movement, High Jump, Abundant Step, and Empty Body.
They not only get more flexibility with feats, they actually get more feats period. Both the Monk and Inquisitor give you bonus feats.
Zen Archers are the only ones who can ignore total cover and total concealment. They are also the only ones who can roll 3d20 and take the highest when rolling to hit. This also significantly increases the chance to critical with a bow.
The biggest advantage they have is they have so many ways to increase their abilities and they all stack with each other.
What they are best at is taking down the BBEG. They do very well vs. the minions but really shine when taking down the boss.